Officially undecided for POTUS

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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,844
8,309
136
Are you really fearful that in the unlikely event Trump is elected pres, he would actually use nuclear weapons?
Why not? It starts with tactical nuclear weapons but escalates from there. He evidently has no idea what a Pandora's box the nuclear arsenal is.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,337
15,133
136
I'm kinda curious about why I should care about Trump/Putin/Crimea when Libya was a far more successful nation than Ukraine has ever been, and when Hillary gloated about her involvement in toppling it, and blamed its citizens for why it's still in disarray.

So are you saying that Libya wasn't in turmoil when we assisted our allies to topple Gaddafi?
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,113
925
126
Frankly, being in California, whether I and many others stay home, makes no difference. California stays blue no matter what we do. There is not even a remote chance of Republicans changing that. I'm going with Johnson, but it's not going to matter.
 

DrDoug

Diamond Member
Jan 16, 2014
3,579
1,629
136
Frankly, being in California, whether I and many others stay home, makes no difference. California stays blue no matter what we do. There is not even a remote chance of Republicans changing that. I'm going with Johnson, but it's not going to matter.

So you #feelthejohnson? :biggrin:
 

sontakke

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
895
11
81
But if their was no EC than everyones vote would matter equally no matter where you lived and politicians couldnt just pander to like 10 states.
Then they will ONLY pander to big states. Nobody would bother to even campaign in say RI or ID.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,663
4,137
136
Then they will ONLY pander to big states. Nobody would bother to even campaign in say RI or ID.

Well we'll get rid of pandering then also :whiste:

I'm all about fixing the broken system down to its core and rebuilding it stronger, better, faster...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,818
49,514
136
Then they will ONLY pander to big states. Nobody would bother to even campaign in say RI or ID.

Even if that were the case, how would that be worse than candidates pandering to a handful of medium sized states? At least a larger percentage of the country would be represented in the pandering.

More likely the result would be that the politicians would cater more towards more densely populated areas than they do now. Considering all of the electoral advantages less densely populated areas already enjoy though that seems more like a much needed rebalancing than anything.
 

sontakke

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
895
11
81
That type of political power system is inherently unstable. The more populous state will have more power which will lead to more population which will lead to more power etc.

In a well designed system, you avoid these type of positive feedback. This is strictly from looking at it from scientific way. Personally, I would be very pleased if GOP never wins another election ever.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,818
49,514
136
That type of political power system is inherently unstable. The more populous state will have more power which will lead to more population which will lead to more power etc.

In a well designed system, you avoid these type of positive feedback. This is strictly from looking at it from scientific way. Personally, I would be very pleased if GOP never wins another election ever.

By that logic then swing states should have accumulated massive power and population over the last 30-40 years, but that's not really the case. Also, eliminating the electoral college does not provide power to any state, it provides power to population centers regardless of state.

Our system is already heavily weighted towards rural areas and my argument is that the weighting has gone too far. As the Senate is structured right now, a coalition of states with as little as about 12% of the population could filibuster and effectively block all legislation. That's ridiculous. If anything that's a recipe for instability.
 

TridenT

Lifer
Sep 4, 2006
16,810
45
91
lol, a libertarian candidate. Yeah, you basically are shooting yourself in the foot if you are socially progressive at all. It's a vote for Trump at that point. (What a psycho!) I get why the Hilary hate as gone so far. It's been a really well crafted message by the right to poison the left side of politics.

What's funny to me about libertarianism in the US is that it means absolutely nothing. Climate change denial is a huge point of the libertarian party from what I've seen in the past. Clearly, a real winner... One of the most fiscally conservative groups in the USA but also the widest span of social issues I've ever seen in a party. Makes no sense. No logical consistency in the messages.

I would have been good with Bernie. I voted for him the primary even though I knew he'd lose. I'm voting for Hillary in the general election. There's no doubt she's one of the most qualified to run out of any non-incumbent candidate.
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,112
318
126
How is it a vote for Trump when Johnson voters are probably going to have more ex-Republicans than ex-Democrats?

You're assuming that anyone voting for the LP would do so because the support every single message that libertarians hold, which isn't true and isn't a standard that people hold the major parties to. Most people voting third party realize that they will never be elected, it's more a way of saying "Hey both major candidates suck, try moving even remotely in a direction I can support if you want my vote". I'd vote for Clinton if she made ending the war on drugs a priority, but that's not something that will happen (both Clinton and Sanders alike thought that the answer to the current opium epidemic was to regulate the drug and medical industry more, which is what caused the problem in the first place). If Sanders didn't advocate increasing spending on virtually everything else, I'd vote for him for being the one candidate I'd trust to cut on defense spending.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,001
113
106
You cannot believe she is an honest and truthful person? Ignoring everything for the last 2 decades and just looking at the last few months, exactly how many times has she lied just about the email issues? Ignore any legal issues with what she may have done or did not do, there is at least 5 or 6 things she lied about.
(1) Emails were used just to communicate with Bill. Bill does not use email.
(2) No marked as classified email ever when through her server. Several marked as
classified or higher were found.
(3) All email was turned over to those investigating. All of them were turned over, except for the 30000 she deleted.
(4)And when asked if she had permission to run her own server, she stated she asked and was given permission. That request was never submitted or granted.

That is just 4 outright bold faced lies about a simple thing that even you have to acknowledge. There is no dispute of these things, they are fact, not something made up by some back room group of "small-minded republicans bent on getting rid of Hillary. In my book when someone lies to you about something so simple to prove, they have and or will lie to you in the future.

You do realize that not all lies are created equal, right? These are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, as they hardly effect anyone residing in the real world.

Here's a lie that you know effects people in a significant way: "I will pay you the mutually agreed upon amount for goods/services you provide." Just ask many of Trump's employees, business partners, and contractors how that ends up.

Hillary does have her baggage, but that is no reason to vote for someone exponentially worse by any metric you pick.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,001
113
106
To those considering a third party vote: think very carefully. Remember Ralph Nader and Ross Perot.

I "Felt the Bern" during the primaries. I've liked Jill Stien in the past, but some of her more recent statements give me pause. I'm not against voting for third parties, but voting third party for president is not only too risky, it is mathematically equivalent to throwing your vote away when considering the electoral college. If you reject the two main parties, go ahead and vote third party for all the downballot races. Your vote can make a difference there and pave the way for future change.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
To those considering a third party vote: think very carefully. Remember Ralph Nader and Ross Perot.

I "Felt the Bern" during the primaries. I've liked Jill Stien in the past, but some of her more recent statements give me pause. I'm not against voting for third parties, but voting third party for president is not only too risky, it is mathematically equivalent to throwing your vote away when considering the electoral college. If you reject the two main parties, go ahead and vote third party for all the downballot races. Your vote can make a difference there and pave the way for future change.

Trumpism is a blight on America. It's a cancer induced by decades of right wing negativity & wedge issues. It places blame on the powerless rather than the powerful. It is, in truth, the result of moral & intellectual bankruptcy among the Repub leadership, a refusal to put the country & the people ahead of a busted economic ideology that benefits the super wealthy above all other considerations. All their other issues & trumped up scandals are merely emotionalized distraction from that. It's all they really care about. If Trumpists saw that clearly they wouldn't be Republicans at all.
 

SNC

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2001
2,166
202
106
You do realize that not all lies are created equal, right? These are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, as they hardly effect anyone residing in the real world.

Here's a lie that you know effects people in a significant way: "I will pay you the mutually agreed upon amount for goods/services you provide." Just ask many of Trump's employees, business partners, and contractors how that ends up.

Hillary does have her baggage, but that is no reason to vote for someone exponentially worse by any metric you pick.


I'm not really sure how to respond to this. Those glasses must be pretty pink to see Hillary's lies in that light.
National secretes in the hands of those who would do us harm, possible information that other nations could use to blackmail the President of the United States, information about troop movements that have the potential to kill hundreds of our service members, if not more. Please don't confuse me with a Trump supporter, his stand on other nations are just as damaging as Clinton's.
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,782
1,540
126
I'm not really sure how to respond to this. Those glasses must be pretty pink to see Hillary's lies in that light.
National secretes in the hands of those who would do us harm, possible information that other nations could use to blackmail the President of the United States, information about troop movements that have the potential to kill hundreds of our service members, if not more. Please don't confuse me with a Trump supporter, his stand on other nations are just as damaging as Clinton's.

Why do you believe any of that resided in her emails? It seems people have went to town with their own speculations of what happened.

Here are some facts for you directly from Comey:

But "a lot of what ended up on Secretary Clinton's server ... had been forwarded up the chain ... and then she comment[ed] sometimes on it," Comey told the House committee.

"In most circumstances, it initiated with aides starting the conversation," he said. Only one conversation — consisting of several email chains — involved top-secret information, and "Secretary Clinton not only received but sent e-mails talking about the [top secret] subject."
...
In fact, he said, three emails on Clinton's server had a paragraph "summariz[ing] something" and included a C in parentheses at the beginning of it, indicating the paragraph contained information "classified at the confidential level, which is the lowest level of classification."

But those paragraphs were "down in the body" of the emails, and "none of the emails had headers at the top of the document that said it's classified," Comey said. Because of the improper absence of such headers, it "would be ... reasonable" for Clinton to think the emails did not contain classified information, or she may have missed the C markings buried in the tens of thousands of other emails exchanged, he acknowledged.

Even if she did notice the markings, "I think it's possible — possible — that she didn't understand what a C meant when she saw it in the body of the e-mail like that," he said
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Why do you believe any of that resided in her emails? It seems people have went to town with their own speculations of what happened.

Here are some facts for you directly from Comey:

But "a lot of what ended up on Secretary Clinton's server ... had been forwarded up the chain ... and then she comment[ed] sometimes on it," Comey told the House committee.

"In most circumstances, it initiated with aides starting the conversation," he said. Only one conversation — consisting of several email chains — involved top-secret information, and "Secretary Clinton not only received but sent e-mails talking about the [top secret] subject."
...
In fact, he said, three emails on Clinton's server had a paragraph "summariz[ing] something" and included a C in parentheses at the beginning of it, indicating the paragraph contained information "classified at the confidential level, which is the lowest level of classification."

But those paragraphs were "down in the body" of the emails, and "none of the emails had headers at the top of the document that said it's classified," Comey said. Because of the improper absence of such headers, it "would be ... reasonable" for Clinton to think the emails did not contain classified information, or she may have missed the C markings buried in the tens of thousands of other emails exchanged, he acknowledged.

Even if she did notice the markings, "I think it's possible — possible — that she didn't understand what a C meant when she saw it in the body of the e-mail like that," he said

It's been all conspiracy theory all the time built on a tiny kernel of truth. It's Brandolini's Law in action. It's like the FUD of birtherism.
 

SNC

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2001
2,166
202
106
Why do you believe any of that resided in her emails? It seems people have went to town with their own speculations of what happened.

Here are some facts for you directly from Comey:

But "a lot of what ended up on Secretary Clinton's server ... had been forwarded up the chain ... and then she comment[ed] sometimes on it," Comey told the House committee.

"In most circumstances, it initiated with aides starting the conversation," he said. Only one conversation — consisting of several email chains — involved top-secret information, and "Secretary Clinton not only received but sent e-mails talking about the [top secret] subject."
...
In fact, he said, three emails on Clinton's server had a paragraph "summariz[ing] something" and included a C in parentheses at the beginning of it, indicating the paragraph contained information "classified at the confidential level, which is the lowest level of classification."

But those paragraphs were "down in the body" of the emails, and "none of the emails had headers at the top of the document that said it's classified," Comey said. Because of the improper absence of such headers, it "would be ... reasonable" for Clinton to think the emails did not contain classified information, or she may have missed the C markings buried in the tens of thousands of other emails exchanged, he acknowledged.

Even if she did notice the markings, "I think it's possible — possible — that she didn't understand what a C meant when she saw it in the body of the e-mail like that," he said
Well seeing how we don't know that the - at least 8 email chains that contained “information that was top secret at the time they were sent.” (Comeys words) - contained, and no one has seen fit to release that info, I'm going to assume that its not for public consumption and could have the potential to cause issues down the road. If you want to believe they do not......
 
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