Ohio Attorney General investigating BB Ti4600 Deal

[Russ]

<< but lumping me into a group by saying that I'm BSing and I'm only in it for personal gain is definitely not appreciated. >>



Hey, I gave you the one percent. Look, we've been through all this before. Months on end, we had to listen to all the "moral" vultures go after Buy.com. Dozens claiming that they were only doing it to "save" the consumer. Thread after thread of righteous chest beating. How many of them are left? Only a couple. The rest disappeared after they extracted their pound of flesh.

Russ, NCNE

 

[isildur]

oh, shoot I forgot that you have to be a lawyer to know some of those things!

No, I'm no lawyer and, if you would bother to read my entire post just once, you'd notice that I've said over and over that the entire basis for this claim lies in our understanding that they have violated contract law and that their TOS fails to meet the guidelines set forth by the FTC and UCC. I've also said, and even quoted myself for your express benefit, that we are awaiting the AG opinion and that, should it be against us, that will be enough for me.

- I've read through the FTC/UCC rules and it looks to me like BB is in violation.
- 4 or 5 lawyers have weighed in with their legal opinions on the matter in H's forums and all but one agreed.
- Now the AG office has said they think that BB is obligated to fulfill these orders.

Russ - most everyone who has done some homework on this DISAGREES with you.

Like I said, everything going on right now LOOKS to be indicating that:
- the BB TOS is NOT binding
- BB is obligated to honor these deals.

If that is overturned by someone OTHER than the "lawyers" raising such a SMELL in here, if the AG determines that BB is AOK here, then I will say fine and acknowledge that there is no recourse or further cause for complaint to BB. What I will maintain though, regardless of what happens with this card is that there needs to be additional regulation of internet retailers.

You have expressed an assumption that you know and understand everyone's motives, but you are in this case in the wrong. I would love to get a video card cheap. What I would love more is to see less companies screwing around with customers because they can't get their act together.

 

[BD2003]

For once I agree with russ. Stop acting like youre trying to save the world when all you want is a cheap video card. Maybe you've convinced yourself that thats what youre fighting for, but youre not fooling anyone else.

Theres nothing wrong with trying to jump on a hot deal or a price mistake, but what youre doing is outrageous.

If you owned best buy, you would have done the same thing.

I hope you get whats coming to you.

 

[isildur]

Hey, I gave you the one percent. Look, we've been through all this before. Months on end, we had to listen to all the "moral" vultures go after Buy.com. Dozens claiming that they were only doing it to "save" the consumer. Thread after thread of righteous chest beating. How many of them are left? Only a couple. The rest disappeared after they extracted their pound of flesh.

How very revealing this is: the wealth of indigation you are heaping upon individuals like myself, who have expressed niether "moral outrage" nor "chest beating" has less to do with our actions than it does with your own history of exposure to such behavior.

I would ask you to keep your personal bitterness to yourself and respond more directly to the words and actions of those here and now.

My position, for clarity's sake is this:
- it appears that BB cannot legally take the action that it has with these cancellations
- it appears that their TOS is non-binding
- it appears that legal authorities subscribe to this position as well
- if these appearances are correct, then BB owes us all a card at $129.99

- if these appearances are incorrect and this is confirmed by an authorative source, if BB CAN cancel orders unilaterally by their TOS, then:
a. they do not owe us a card at $129.99
b. there is no justification for pursuing this with BB and no honest manner to do so and I will be the first to drop the matter

for additional clarification, the steps I have taken thus far are:
- reply to cancellation emails with my polite objection
- file a complaint with the BBB online indicating that the TOS was never pointed out during the registration or order process and my objections to it based on my reading of the FTC/UCC guidelines
- file a complaint with the AG (upon their recommendation yesterday) detailing ONLY the details of this transaction and asking them to review it

Please note the lack of moral outrage or chestbeating.

While BB business practices tend to be a clusterf--- in so many ways, I am only concerned with the legality of their TOS, since it is the only thing that bears relavence here.

 

[Antisocial Virge]

<< but when BB said this "pre-buy for "$200" off retail" >>



Can anyone show me a screenshot of where it said that? I hear some people mention that but more people say it never said that. The screenshots over on on the hard forums never showed it but when guys asked about it some guys mentioned that the shot showing that "was in the vault away from Bestbuy's eyes" or some crap like that.

 

[BD2003]

Often times the law is silly. Such as getting caught jaywalking at 1am when theres no cars around at all. Such as charging the bartender for shooting the robber.

It would be absolutely ridiculous to expect best buy to shell out millions of dollars to pay the WGF4C (Wounded GF4 Children), when they more than likely made an honest mistake, which hurt NOBODY.

What you are doing is technically standing up for the law, and while you may be technically right as far the law goes, it doesnt make you any less of a whining asshole.

You do not deserve a GF4. As a matter of fact, I hope best buy remembers your name and passes it around to all other retailers so they know never to sell to you.

Strange how fitting your name is. I hope your greed eventually leads to your downfall, as it did to isildur.

 

[golfreak]

STEVE at HAROCP is ignorant.
I sent him a thought out email that stated my opinion on the matter but he choose not to finish reading it cause it doesn't agree with him.

As I was saying before, anyone with common sense can tell its a pricing mistake.
No one on the net are even selling these cards under $300 so theres no reason for Bestbuy to sell it at $129.
And again, you're talking about a company that having the best year ever, they don't need any type of marketing scam to create interest.

So your arguement has been well, Bestbuy broke the law.
I don't know the law but if they did broke it, didn't they gave all of us $30 GC for 2mins of our time ??

All the whiners need to let it go already.

 

[richd111]

I may not agree with it, but I respect everyone's opinion on this thread, I really do. And unless someone actually steps forward and presents lawyer credentials, there are no lawyers here. So everything that people are posting are just opinions. Whether we've done research or not, our law interpretations are just opinion. BB is not guilty or innocent until judged. Is BB guilty of something? I think most retailers are guilty of shenanigans at one point or another. Is BB guilty in this one case? I don't think so, and yes, that is my opionion. I am not a lawyer.

There are some things in this thread that I don't respect however.

1. Anyone trying to convince me that there are actually people out there that thought this was a legitimate price for this card, and got snowed. Everyone, not most people, but EVERYONE who bought this card knew it was a mistake. I'm sorry, anyone in a position to have enough knowledge to buy this card to begin with, knew there was no way this was a legitimate price. Everyone was "hoping" that these would just slip through, and trying to put one over on BB.
2. Those that are critical of others because they are not lawyers, and declare that BB is innocent, while they themselves are decalring BB guilty.
3. Those that are declaring that this is a crusade to make cyber space safe for me. I would like to know what your crusading resume looks like, and I would like to know what your next target is.
4. Those that went out the next day and spent the $30 GC (or those that would have if there was something they really wanted at the time) and are now looking to get the vid card, too. While not a legal contract, it is a moral contract that you entered into when you cashed that GC. That contract states that you are accepting the GC for the price mistake.

As always, just my opinion.

 

[isildur]

<sigh>

It is clear that most of the people here are not interested in anything but telling me what I want and what I believe and it is abundantly clear that there is nothing I can say or do to convince you otherwise.
This is pointless because your accusations are not ones that you are willing to hear rebutts to and my stated position is not one that you are interested in engaging with anything but spite and childish name calling. I'm not emotionally invested in this and my position on the legal issue does not make me some kind of nutty crusader.
I have repeatedly posted what is a very moderate position and I have even give you all the honest skinny on what meager actions I have taken and you have given me nothing but blindly antagonistic replies that never make even the slightest attempt to reply to position with position, reason with reason.

Thus, I bow out and can only hope that you guys will hear me this one last time when I say that I am neither pirate nor crusader and that I am not nearly as emotionally involved in this issue as you guys seem to be. I believe that online retailing is of course not very well regulated yet as it is still an emerging form of commerce and, after reading over the FTC & UCC codes with regards to online purchases and retailer TOS's, it looks pretty clear to me that BB has erred by not requiring customers to agree to their TOS and are therefore in unsound legal territory by excercising such liberal rights based on it.

If I don't get a card, read this carefully now, I WILL NOT CRY. I WILL NOT CALL THE NEWS. I WILL BE JUST FINE.

Unconvinced?
<shrug>
Not much more I can do than that, is there?




And by the way, Isildur was destroyed by his lust for power, not for his greed for material things or wealth. I simply chose the name because it reflects the truth of mankind - even the best can fall given the right circumstances and temptation.

 

[Ornery]

"BB is not guilty or innocent until judged."

Even then, what does it mean?

• Pain and suffering for sale
  
  "...such as in the case of a former heroin user who felt cigarettes were the cause of his cancer. Though he was awarded $3 billion by the jury, the judge reduced the amount to $100 million. Philip Morris U.S.A. will be forced to pay this ridiculous claim."
  
  In Louisiana, a judge received $1.06 billion from Exxon Mobil to compensate him for radioactive contamination of his land....
  
  In New York, $115 million was awarded to a plaintiff for "pain and suffering."

Just because a jury awards a person a few million for spilling coffee on themselves, doesn't make it right! :frown:

Still wondering if you WMC are proud of this group?

 

[gunf1ghter]

WMC? Wounded Monitor Children?

 

[hammer01]

Yes Wounded Monitor Children, and they really come crawling outta the woodwork when something like this happens. 150 years ago they were carpetbaggers now they are just Capitalistic oppurtunists waiting for anyone they think they may be able to rape for a buck or two. WMC's (and those who defend this attitude) this is just a form of financial and legal terrorism, and yes Golf, Steve from HOCP is a jackass, but everyone needs to have on thing they are good at.

 

[gunf1ghter]

LMAO @ Hammer and the other guys who slam these types of weenies.

 

[docmanhattan]

<< Did they? Wow, must have missed the conclusion of the AG's investigation and the published results. Again, just admit that you people think you're entitled to something you did not earn, and dispense with the phony moral outrage. You'd still be a vulture, but at least an honest one. >>

I'm with Russ on this one. BB made a mistake, you tried to capitalize on their mistake evne though you knew full well that that card wasn't selling at that price, and when they realized their error and sent you off with a $30 GC (which most places would have hardly done that) you got your undies in a bundle.

This is such garbage. I can not believe the extent to which people are going just to crucify a company for a price error. And I'm not saying that Best Buy is any saint, but get mad at them for poor customer service, rude employees and not honoring pricematches, not a freakin' price error.

 

[isildur]

I'm just wondering who helps so many of you guys make your posts here since you clearly are illiterate.

 

[docmanhattan]

<< I'm just wondering who helps so many of you guys make your posts here since you clearly are illiterate. >>

You know what's great about the "rolling eyes" icon? It just keeps rolling it's eyes. over and over and over and ...

 

[gunf1ghter]

because you know, he has the moral high ground

and he's really doing this for the little guy

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

I am glad there are so many sensible people here that realize that companies shouldn't be held responsible for their mistakes and that the law doesn't supercede disclaimers.

 

[Platinum]

All I wanna say is, for everyone who crack on Steve and others for hitting on BB, think about this...

1)These people are fighting for everyone...FOR FREE
2)It doesn't hurt anyone (except BB)

Yeah, some of u are gonna say that BB's gonna raise up the price if they give in and this would affect everyone eventually. I say that's a good thing cuz when they DO raise their price, guess what? Less people's gonna shop there cuz everyone else is gonna shop elsewhere, i.e., compUSA, CC, OM, whom will RETAIN their prices. BB is in a competitive market and if they fail to honor their mistakes, they deserve to face the consequences for their bad customer service.

I think Steve and others are doing a great job in trying to help everyone who order get their cards. If u don't appreciate the work they're doing, fine, shut up and don't ruin it for everyone else. I mean, if BB gives in due to the constant pressure from Steve and his team, are you gonna still crack on Steve? If you're stubborn in your stance to help BB, then fine...when BB sends u the card, do "your" thinking of the right thing and tell them no thanks.

 

[gunf1ghter]

No, I'm not going to shut up... this thread is open for discussion of the issue.

I really don't give a flyin f*k if a bunch of hot deal vultures want to go on some wounded monitor children crusade and try to make BB give them dirt cheap vid cards (with the 2000-3000 orders that BB took it would cost them somewhere around 1/2 a million to do so, plus all the legal and other costs that they would incur).

The law is designed to force retailers to not use bait and switch tactics to abuse consumers. The real issue here is whether that is what BB did. In most states retailers are explicitly protected from PRICING ERRORS. Stuff gets priced wrong in ads ALL THE TIME. All that BB getting slapped down is going to do is set some kind of precedent that ANY and ALL pricing mistakes by a retailer have to be honored. Sometimes human error can cause a pricing mistake to happen... do you really want every retailer who has no disingenuous intentions to get slapped down and have to fork over 100's of thousands of $$ worth of below cost merchandise everytime someone in the ad department makes a typo?????????????????????????

If that IS what you want (which seems to be the case with some folks who scream that a retailer has to honor it's pricing mistakes no matter what the cost) then we should all be prepared for higher costs as retailers will have to buy insurance against these types of errors... they will surely pass the cost of that insurance on to their customers (or go out of business).

All that this is going to do is result in higher prices for all of us, as well as fewer genuine hot deals.

Hope you guys are happy.

 

[hammer01]

Waah, waah, waah, how would you like it if every time you made a mistake (and trust me I have no doubt you WMC types make plenty) there was some clown standing behind with a calculator, a big smile on his face just staring at your ass? You wouldn't would you, then let everyone who makes a mistake do so without you standing behind them with your calculator and that big smile, essentially that is what is happening to this country in the last half century. Everyone wants to sue someone to make the quick easy buck, or because this person or that company caused them mental distress or pain and suffering. Waah get over it people and live your freakin lives (as pathetic as they may be and that may be the source of this hostility from you folks, and you know who you are) act like civilized human beings who just may have to accept that everyone makes mistakes.

nuff said!

 

[Platinum]

First of all, I want to clarify one thing here. I'm not here to argue with you the moral values in ripping off a POS company like BB(I have very bad experience with them in the past) and neither am I here to validate if any of the stupid TOS applied to my order. All I'm saying is, even if you don't appreciate some work that someone else is doing for your lazy @sses, there's no need to put them down.

You can do all you want with your order for all I care.

Hammer - Go ahead, call BB and tell them even if they decide to give in, make sure your order # is not included in the delivery list. Prove to me that you are fully supporting the side of the evil merchants.

how would you like it if you were the merchant...blah blah

What if you were a serial killer and everyone hates your guts? Are you gonna look in the point of view of the serial killer and believes killing people is right?

Again, I want to emphasize for those who have NOT heard me the first time, I'm not here to argue with your BS stands on this situation. I'm simply stating my opinion in that Steve is doing an awesome job in helping everyone.

 

[Rigormortis]

My First Post on AT Forums...

Platinum - You are exactly right. I'm glad there are a few informed people that post on this board.

The Facts:

#1 - VisionTek has a BIG Best Buy link showing you where to go and get the new card.

#2 - Best Buy has a special graphic on the main page for the pre-order area.

#3 - The card is listed as a "Special Pre-Order". What is so special about full price?

#4 - Many people called to verify the price.

#5 - The "In store" tags were marked $179.99.

Now all the orders are cancelled:

#1 - People get emails saying we "can't honor the SALE price".

#2 - My buddy calls the 1-800 number, the MANAGER "Chris" says the in store $179 price was 100% correct and anybody could have gotten in on the deal if they had visited the store. Of course this was a LIE, and Chris will not send us an e-mail stating that fact. He will not even guarantee that the $399 price is correct. These guys rock...

#3 - Numerous people get their orders filled at the store for the $129 and $179. Why are others being discriminated against.

#4 - Many complaints are filled with the BBB. But since BB pays them membership dues, they are little more than paid spokespersons.

#5- A direct marketing company offers us a GC for Best Buy? OK... Oh we can't even use it for the card we wanted in the first place. Nice.

#6- All e-mails we send concerning the matter are replied to via computer (but of course made to look personalized).

#7- Best Buy pulls the card out of it's online Video Card gallery (why?)

#8- At this point Best Buy is offering ZERO replies and just waiting it out...

* Many thanks to Steve at Hypo... You the man....

*If the lawyers at the AG office has reviewed the info and said YES "Best Buy should honor the price." I find it humerous there are so many people flaming us guys who are trying to do the right thing... A while back I wondered "Are there really that many people stupid enough to vote for Al Gore?" After reading this forum for a while, the wondering is over...

Thanks all...
The Rigster...

 

[hammer01]

If I were to have ordered this, which I didn't, and would have been cancelled on so what, it is not like it is a big deal to me. Nothing really lost here except possibly an excellent deal that was only there because of someone's mistake. But for the grace of God on that one.



<< First of all, I want to clarify one thing here. I'm not here to argue with you the moral values in ripping off a POS company like BB(I have very bad experience with them in the past) and neither am I here to validate if any of the stupid TOS applied to my order. All I'm saying is, even if you don't appreciate some work that someone else is doing for your lazy @sses, there's no need to put them down. >>



Why are you here, to help some other opportunists cash in on a mistake, well that makes all the difference in the world. Honest judge it wasn't me that pulled the trigger on the gun, I just loaded it and showed him how to aim and helped to rationalize away his fear of shooting other human beings. Yeah big difference there! :disgust:

 

[Platinum]

Why are you here, to help some other opportunists cash in on a mistake

Obviously, O illiterate one, your interpreter fail to say it to you when i wrote :
Again, I want to emphasize for those who have NOT heard me the first time, I'm not here to argue with your BS stands on this situation. I'm simply stating my opinion in that Steve is doing an awesome job in helping everyone.

The real question is , if you DIDN'T order the card, why are YOU here?
"Well, u see...BB pay me $2.95/hr to post this and give all of you a hard time..."

Don't give me that righteous crap about price mistakes and all. I mean, if I made a mistake of leaving my door unlock at home and a thieve come in, can I tell the thieve , "hey, I made a mistake of leaving the door unlock. Can you pls give me back the stuff u rob??" Chances are, if u make a mistake, you have to DEAL with it...just like everyone else.