Oil & Gas Prices:10-8-04 U.S. Crude over $53 Whitehouse says there will be no impact - Gas prices rising fast towards $3

[1EZduzit]

We should have taken all the money spent on the war and used it to fund renewable fuel for this country. We would have been better off in the long run.

 

[dmcowen674]

8-24-2004 Gasoline Prices Go Against the Flow

A funny thing happened on the way to $2.50-a-gallon gas this summer. It didn't get there.

The average price for regular self-serve gasoline in California has now fallen for nearly three months, to just above $2 a gallon, the Energy Department reported Monday. That comes despite the busy summer driving season and a spurt in crude oil prices to record highs of nearly $50 a barrel.

Experts disagree over whether the price break may be ending for California, as it already has for other parts of the country. Some say that with crude so expensive, it's only a matter of time before pump prices start climbing too Others maintain that with the summer driving season winding down, the decrease in demand should help prices drift even lower.

But what everybody seems to agree on is that the last few months have been mighty strange at the gas station.

Gasoline prices typically move up ahead of Labor Day as service station owners take advantage of the summer's last official vacation weekend. Then, as schools reopen and motorists' demand for gasoline tapers off, prices tend to sag.

What will happen this time, though, is far from clear.

As high prices for crude oil work their way to the retail market, some believe, it could offset the normal pattern and prevent further declines at the pump.

"It's anybody's guess, but with the market so tight, and with crude going up, I cannot believe that prices will continue to drop," said Will Woods, executive director of the Automotive Trade Organizations of California, a Tustin-based trade group for independent station owners.

Valero Energy, which has two major refineries in California, has noticed wholesale gasoline prices moving up in the last two weeks. Given that, "we would expect street prices to increase some over the near term, but not necessarily to the peak we saw in May," said Mary Rose Brown, a spokeswoman for the San Antonio, Texas-based company.

Others aren't so sure, pointing to continued high refinery output and gasoline imports.

"If supplies remain steady," said the Auto Club's Thorp, "we could see a continued price decrease through Labor Day and beyond."

=========================================
Gas here is creeping up just ahead of Labor Day as normal. It is now just shy of $2 for regular here after spending the last 2 months at $1.75

The News tonight interviewed some Gasoline Marketers that said they have seen wholesale prices spike so hign the last 2 weeks they expect $3 a gallon within a month.

We'll see.

I'm still hoping for $6 gallon, to really nail SUV drivers.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
8-24-2004 Gasoline Prices Go Against the Flow

A

=========================================
Gas here is creeping up just ahead of Labor Day as normal. It is now just shy of $2 for regular here after spending the last 2 months at $1.75

The News tonight interviewed some Gasoline Marketers that said they have seen wholesale prices spike so hign the last 2 weeks they expect $3 a gallon within a month.

We'll see.

I'm still hoping for $6 gallon, to really nail SUV drivers.

Please dont hope for that.

I drive a saturn that gets about 25 MPG in town...it would cost me $90 to fill my tank...and I can't afford that...I am sure there are many others that can't afford $6 a gallon either.

 

[Ultima]

But they shouldn't open up emergency reserves or do anything else to keep the price artificially low, either. If there does end up being a shortage, there could be "gas cards" issued that allow you to buy more or less gas depending on where you live, but not on what you drive. People living in Manhattan would be entitled to less gas than those living on some farm, because they don't need it as much.

I have no idea how well this would actually work in practice though.

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Please dont hope for that.

I drive a saturn that gets about 25 MPG in town...it would cost me $90 to fill my tank...and I can't afford that...I am sure there are many others that can't afford $6 a gallon either.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: Ultima
But they shouldn't open up emergency reserves or do anything else to keep the price artificially low, either. If there does end up being a shortage, there could be "gas cards" issued that allow you to buy more or less gas depending on where you live, but not on what you drive. People living in Manhattan would be entitled to less gas than those living on some farm, because they don't need it as much.

I have no idea how well this would actually work in practice though.

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Please dont hope for that.

I drive a saturn that gets about 25 MPG in town...it would cost me $90 to fill my tank...and I can't afford that...I am sure there are many others that can't afford $6 a gallon either.

Oil futures fell to $44 today

 

[kaizersose]

Originally posted by: Ultima
But they shouldn't open up emergency reserves or do anything else to keep the price artificially low, either. If there does end up being a shortage, there could be "gas cards" issued that allow you to buy more or less gas depending on where you live, but not on what you drive. People living in Manhattan would be entitled to less gas than those living on some farm, because they don't need it as much.

I have no idea how well this would actually work in practice though.

strategic reserves are not big enough to have a significant effect on gas prices, maybe a few cents a gallon.

also, they are not meant for price regulation, they exist in case a war/conflict seriuosly hampers our ability to import oil. the reserves were created after the opec boycott in 1973, resulting from the yom kippur war in israel.

 

[zephyrprime]

Well, gasoline is down $5 today. Seems like the tops been put in and it will drop from now on.

By the way, here's a chart of the variations in gas usage in the US link. As can be seen, gas usage starts dropping in october.

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Ultima
But they shouldn't open up emergency reserves or do anything else to keep the price artificially low, either. If there does end up being a shortage, there could be "gas cards" issued that allow you to buy more or less gas depending on where you live, but not on what you drive. People living in Manhattan would be entitled to less gas than those living on some farm, because they don't need it as much.

I have no idea how well this would actually work in practice though.

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Please dont hope for that.

I drive a saturn that gets about 25 MPG in town...it would cost me $90 to fill my tank...and I can't afford that...I am sure there are many others that can't afford $6 a gallon either.

Oil futures fell to $44 today

Below that, actually. (gasoline is also back down to the $1.15-1.20 range on the futures market)

"Recent demand for gasoline was far below expectations".

Are these economists living under a rock? Or course it's going to drop off if people can't afford to go joyriding everywhere.

 

[dmcowen674]

Briggs foresees $110 crude by 2010

NEW ORLEANS ? Importing liquid natural gas is expected to lead to more jobs at facilities being built and expanded in Louisiana and near its coast. But an industry insider does not see LNG as the answer to high energy prices.

Don Briggs, president of the Louisiana Independent Oil and Gas Association, said Louisiana-based firms can look forward to more work involving construction of new LNG terminals and makeovers for sites such as McMoRan?s Main Pass facility. But because so many of the chemical plants in Louisiana rely on natural gas as a source material, Briggs believes demand and the price for natural gas will remain high.

"Bringing in LNG helps some, but we?re still behind the curve in terms of meeting energy needs," Briggs said. "The projection for 2010 is for oil to reach $110 a barrel. There will probably be a push to switch everything over to natural gas and the result will be that demand pushing up the price of natural gas."

Briggs is backed by influential energy sources such as International Energy Agency head Claude Mandil, who said today investment in new oil-and-gas production is falling about 15 percent short of the estimated $210 billion per year required to keep up with world demand. Mandil says producers need to build more capacity now.

Energy producers such as Entergy and Cleco have already expressed support for increased LNG imports, and Briggs thinks this sector will be the largest consumer of LNG.

Briggs downplayed projections that additional LNG will curb the country?s reliance on foreign oil, noting that the bulk of the natural gas imports will also come from a foreign source. In addition, he said, foreign usage of energy is also on the increase.

"By 2020 we?re going to see China consuming as much energy as the United States," said Briggs. "That means we?re going to have to increase oil production by 30 million to 40 million barrels per day and the equivalent in gas."

 

[Crimson]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Briggs foresees $110 crude by 2010

NEW ORLEANS ? Importing liquid natural gas is expected to lead to more jobs at facilities being built and expanded in Louisiana and near its coast. But an industry insider does not see LNG as the answer to high energy prices.

Don Briggs, president of the Louisiana Independent Oil and Gas Association, said Louisiana-based firms can look forward to more work involving construction of new LNG terminals and makeovers for sites such as McMoRan?s Main Pass facility. But because so many of the chemical plants in Louisiana rely on natural gas as a source material, Briggs believes demand and the price for natural gas will remain high.

"Bringing in LNG helps some, but we?re still behind the curve in terms of meeting energy needs," Briggs said. "The projection for 2010 is for oil to reach $110 a barrel. There will probably be a push to switch everything over to natural gas and the result will be that demand pushing up the price of natural gas."

Briggs is backed by influential energy sources such as International Energy Agency head Claude Mandil, who said today investment in new oil-and-gas production is falling about 15 percent short of the estimated $210 billion per year required to keep up with world demand. Mandil says producers need to build more capacity now.

Energy producers such as Entergy and Cleco have already expressed support for increased LNG imports, and Briggs thinks this sector will be the largest consumer of LNG.

Briggs downplayed projections that additional LNG will curb the country?s reliance on foreign oil, noting that the bulk of the natural gas imports will also come from a foreign source. In addition, he said, foreign usage of energy is also on the increase.

"By 2020 we?re going to see China consuming as much energy as the United States," said Briggs. "That means we?re going to have to increase oil production by 30 million to 40 million barrels per day and the equivalent in gas."

At which time alternative energies will become more affordable and preferred... capitalism at work.. There is no point in using alternative fuels until the supply of oil runs out, or alternatives are cheaper than oil. Its working exactly like it should.

 

[CycloWizard]

At which time alternative energies will become more affordable and preferred... capitalism at work.. There is no point in using alternative fuels until the supply of oil runs out, or alternatives are cheaper than oil. Its working exactly like it should.

I don't have the time nor the desire to wade through 700+ posts, but this one here is on the button. Alternative fuel cars can be built using existing technology. They're more expensive only because the demand isn't there to enable practical mass production. In two days, I built a fuel cell car for a couple hundred bucks (shameless plug: http://pubs.acs.org/cen/science/8150/8150aiche.html) that we got reliable performance out of (and won a couple thousand bucks ). I also took courses in petroleum engineering from a professor that works for Shell. He clearly stated over and over that the oil companies have the ability to approximately quadruple supply, but they have no motivation to do so, since they are essentially rationing out the oil to jack up prices. The federal government doesn't step in because they know the capacity that we have domestically and don't want to waste it until it's absolutely necessary (i.e. we isolate from the rest of the world).

If you don't believe me, look at oil publications at the number of wells in and out of service just in Texas. The number will jump or dip 20% or so in one month if prices get too high or too low.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

If you don't believe me, look at oil publications at the number of wells in and out of service just in Texas. The number will jump or dip 20% or so in one month if prices get too high or too low.

This is hard to quantify. Last weekend I went down off the Louisiana coast to where all the oil platforms are and there was a ton of the oil pumps you see in Texas along the road leading down to the Gulf too. All of the Oil pumps were rusting dead hulks, with most of them fallen over now they have been out of service for decades.

It certainly looks like we have tapped out the Oil here.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

At which time alternative energies will become more affordable and preferred... capitalism at work.. There is no point in using alternative fuels until the supply of oil runs out, or alternatives are cheaper than oil. Its working exactly like it should.

I don't have the time nor the desire to wade through 700+ posts, but this one here is on the button. Alternative fuel cars can be built using existing technology. They're more expensive only because the demand isn't there to enable practical mass production. In two days, I built a fuel cell car for a couple hundred bucks (shameless plug: http://pubs.acs.org/cen/science/8150/8150aiche.html) that we got reliable performance out of (and won a couple thousand bucks ). I also took courses in petroleum engineering from a professor that works for Shell. He clearly stated over and over that the oil companies have the ability to approximately quadruple supply, but they have no motivation to do so, since they are essentially rationing out the oil to jack up prices. The federal government doesn't step in because they know the capacity that we have domestically and don't want to waste it until it's absolutely necessary (i.e. we isolate from the rest of the world).

If you don't believe me, look at oil publications at the number of wells in and out of service just in Texas. The number will jump or dip 20% or so in one month if prices get too high or too low.

oops - nevermind...the link works but the formatting is borked.

CkG

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
8-24-2004 Gasoline Prices Go Against the Flow

A

=========================================
Gas here is creeping up just ahead of Labor Day as normal. It is now just shy of $2 for regular here after spending the last 2 months at $1.75

The News tonight interviewed some Gasoline Marketers that said they have seen wholesale prices spike so hign the last 2 weeks they expect $3 a gallon within a month.

We'll see.

I'm still hoping for $6 gallon, to really nail SUV drivers.

Please dont hope for that.

I drive a saturn that gets about 25 MPG in town...it would cost me $90 to fill my tank...and I can't afford that...I am sure there are many others that can't afford $6 a gallon either.

What Dave doesn't realize is if his gleeful predictions come true - the SUV drivers really won't care - they'll take out the Camry instead. Who will get hurt the worst? Those that gas represents a larger portion of their income. In other words, the poor and lower middle class.

$6 a gallon would mean about $60 more a week for me. I could afford it. I'd probably start carpooling. But the poor/middle class? That would kill them...

 

[Chadder007]

Why do people have such a HardOn for getting rid of SUV's? A choice that is left to the American consumer and a freedom.
????

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Chadder007
Why do people have such a HardOn for getting rid of SUV's? A choice that is left to the American consumer and a freedom.
????

Because it is the Rich Vs the Poor.

It is similar to the Smokers trying to smoke on top of you in a Restaraunt with them taking away non-smokers smoke free air.

The SUV's are taking more of the what is obviously a dangerously close to running out resource, oil.

Both suck, literally. :| :thumbsdown:

 

[Chadder007]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Chadder007
Why do people have such a HardOn for getting rid of SUV's? A choice that is left to the American consumer and a freedom.
????

Because it is the Rich Vs the Poor.

It is similar to the Smokers trying to smoke on top of you in a Restaraunt with them taking away non-smokers smoke free air.

The SUV's are taking more of the what is obviously a dangerously close to running out resource, oil.

Both suck, literally. :| :thumbsdown:

Umm....I see more poor people driving big trucks and SUVs down the road. Same thing with Smokers. Are you against poor people?
Oh yeah, and old cars that burn gas and oil like crazy. That is all that they could afford or get loans for possibly is those old burners. What are they to do when the gas prices go up more huH?? Spend less on food or clothes for their family? Taxing the poor with cigarette taxes that are sky high and now becoming exstatic with gas prices going up that will hurt them even more. How are they supposed to buy those special hybrid cars with their premium prices also??

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Chadder007

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Chadder007
Why do people have such a HardOn for getting rid of SUV's? A choice that is left to the American consumer and a freedom.
????

Because it is the Rich Vs the Poor.

It is similar to the Smokers trying to smoke on top of you in a Restaraunt with them taking away non-smokers smoke free air.

The SUV's are taking more of the what is obviously a dangerously close to running out resource, oil.

Both suck, literally. :| :thumbsdown:

Umm....I see more poor people driving big trucks and SUVs down the road. Same thing with Smokers. Are you against poor people?
Oh yeah, and old cars that burn gas and oil like crazy. That is all that they could afford or get loans for possibly is those old burners. What are they to do when the gas prices go up more huH?? Spend less on food or clothes for their family? Taxing the poor with cigarette taxes that are sky high and now becoming exstatic with gas prices going up that will hurt them even more. How are they supposed to buy those special hybrid cars with their premium prices also??

Multiple issues here obviously.

First of all people shouldn't be smoking, Rich or Poor and it should be $70 a pack with most of it Taxes to help offset the losses in Productivity, added Health care costs etc because of the nasty killer drug habit.

Old cars should not be on the road, period. Certainly should not be any "loans" for "old" cars.

Hybrids should be the norm and SUV's extinct.

It's all really very simple.

 

[Chadder007]

You didn't answer.....how are the poor supposed to be paying for these premium priced new Hybrid cars and higher gas prices?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Chadder007
You didn't answer.....how are the poor supposed to be paying for these premium priced new Hybrid cars and higher gas prices?

Don't ask me, ask the Rich Elitist Neocons in here that widened the gap between Rich and Poor.

 

[CycloWizard]

Don't ask me, ask the Rich Elitist Neocons in here that widened the gap between Rich and Poor.

That's the difference between Republicans and Democrats: Republicans have bad ideas, but Democrats have no ideas.

(borrowed from Lewis Black I believe, used without permission)

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Chadder007
You didn't answer.....how are the poor supposed to be paying for these premium priced new Hybrid cars and higher gas prices?

Dave is just a spiteful prick who has it in for everybody, rich and poor. Think Ellsworth Toohey from the Fountainhead (a great read if you haven't already), he hides his spite as a hatred for the rich and a beneficial handout to the poor, but in reality he is hoping the worst for everyone.

Look at how he hates people and freedom! I got news for ya, Dave, more poor people smoke than rich, and only poor people drive old cars because its all they can afford. And hybrids don't get better gas mileage than a comparable mechanical car, they just cost more. Where once Honda made a 50 mpg Civic and sold it for $10k, now they make a 50 mpg hybrid with comparable weight, features, and specs, market it to you as some great gas saving vehicle, and sell it for $20k. And you, the idiot who hates everyone, falls into their trap like a good corporate slave that you really are...

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Chadder007
You didn't answer.....how are the poor supposed to be paying for these premium priced new Hybrid cars and higher gas prices?

Don't ask me, ask the Rich Elitist Neocons in here that widened the gap between Rich and Poor.

Really? And what constructive thing would you do to help narrow that gap, asides from running up costs on the poor even further and widening that gap even further? And how has that gap widened when compared to the wealth of the rich and the poverty of the poor 100 years ago? If anything, we live at the tail end of a golden age, and you just want to see that golden age end and everyone back to the bad ol' times as quickly as possible. And why? because you've fscked over your own life so you want to see everyone else fscked over too.
I think your trolling needs to end and you need to be banned. I'm sick of your hatred, your lies, and your sh!t.

Pardon me, mods, if this seems out of line, but he needs the back of someone's hand or his crap is going to go on forever...

 

[CycloWizard]

Look at how he hates people and freedom! I got news for ya, Dave, more poor people smoke than rich, and only poor people drive old cars because its all they can afford. And hybrids don't get better gas mileage than a comparable mechanical car, they just cost more. Where once Honda made a 50 mpg Civic and sold it for $10k, now they make a 50 mpg hybrid with comparable weight, features, and specs, market it to you as some great gas saving vehicle, and sell it for $20k. And you, the idiot who hates everyone, falls into their trap like a good corporate slave that you really are...

And you, who don't understand how hybrid cars work or why they might be more expensive or useful, are being kept down by The Man, aren't you? If hybrid cars had a sufficient demand to warrant larger production runs, the price would probably only be a couple hundred bucks over that of a normal car. As it stands now, they're a few thousand more - and they still pay themselves off after an average of three years just due to gas savings.

Your misconception is that Big Business is out to get you down when, in reality, people are keeping themselves from reaping the benefits of this technology by not buying into it. No Civic ever got 50 mpg before hybrids came out. Civic != Metro.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
And you, who don't understand how hybrid cars work or why they might be more expensive or useful, are being kept down by The Man, aren't you? If hybrid cars had a sufficient demand to warrant larger production runs, the price would probably only be a couple hundred bucks over that of a normal car. As it stands now, they're a few thousand more - and they still pay themselves off after an average of three years just due to gas savings.

Your misconception is that Big Business is out to get you down when, in reality, people are keeping themselves from reaping the benefits of this technology by not buying into it. No Civic ever got 50 mpg before hybrids came out. Civic != Metro.

Uhh... the Honda Insight is comparable in almost every way spec-wise to an old Metro, it just sells for twice as much. 3 cyl 1 liter engine in a ultra compact car designed for weight savings and tiny low-rolling resistance tires.
As for Civics, I regularly got 50 mpg on the highway with my old Civic CRX. When I owned it, I could drive from Medford, OR to Coos Bay and back (roughly 400 miles) on $10 bucks of gas at $1.29/gal. You do the math. I know, I owned it for more than 100k miles, all of which were done in just over a year's time (drove a lot for work, and it was the perfect car for it).
And pardon me, but I just had this argument in OT, and I'm not going to do it again. Hybrids can be in many ways more efficient, but it is not alternatively-fueled, it still runs ENTIRELY on the ICE and fossil fuels, and EPA mileage estimates have not held up in the real world. Power cannot be made magically, and no one ever saved money by spending it.