OK, I have had a day to digest Bushes Iraq speech.

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Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
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We also project force via a large number of nuclear aircraft carriers, the world's largest airlift capability, the truely functional nuclear submarine force, and a heavy amphibious capability. We are unmatched in the world in these capabilities, mostly built up for the Cold War to re-inforce Europe in the event of WW III.

The bases make it easier, cheaper, and faster - but we still have other means to project force. And those means don't usually end up pissing off people nearly as much...

Future Shock
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Future Shock
We also project force via a large number of nuclear aircraft carriers, the world's largest airlift capability, the truely functional nuclear submarine force, and a heavy amphibious capability. We are unmatched in the world in these capabilities, mostly built up for the Cold War to re-inforce Europe in the event of WW III.

The bases make it easier, cheaper, and faster - but we still have other means to project force. And those means don't usually end up pissing off people nearly as much...

Future Shock

And that's the other side of the issue, alternatives to the traditional military bases exist, alternatives that have some unique advantages.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
Plan was... Go there, get Oil, get rich.

Even Bush's dumb @$$ knows better then to ever think there can be peace there right now, ESPECIALLY peace brought by outsiders.
 

replicator

Senior member
Oct 7, 2003
431
0
0
Originally posted by: lozina


"A newsflash has this moment arrived from the Malabar Front.
The forces of Oceania in South India have won a glorious victory.
I am authorized to say that the war against Eurasia is within measurable distance of its end."

"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace." - President GWB 2002 (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/06/20020618-1.html)

"War is peace. freedom is slavery. ignorance is strength." George Orwell's 1984
 

GTKeeper

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2005
1,118
0
0
I think using such absolute vocabulary makes Bush look so dumb. Victory, War on Terror etc. are just so detached from reality. You cannot DEFEAT terror. You cannot WIN a war on terror. What is this guy thinking? What you can do though is contain it, not let it escalate to the levels it is at today. You can protect America. We had intelligence reports on 9/11 before 9/11 happened. Due to our inability to coordinate intelligence agencies we never put the pieces together. We are so self centered, not only in the "American Way" but individually. What disturbs me the most is that our Administration is willing to sacrfice and sellout fellow AMERICANS for individual greed for power/money. That is the most unpatriotic thing you can do.

I honestly believe that after 1900 being in politics stopped being a public service, which is what it should always be.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: replicator
Originally posted by: lozina


"A newsflash has this moment arrived from the Malabar Front.
The forces of Oceania in South India have won a glorious victory.
I am authorized to say that the war against Eurasia is within measurable distance of its end."

"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace." - President GWB 2002 (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/06/20020618-1.html)

"War is peace. freedom is slavery. ignorance is strength." George Orwell's 1984

Thank you.. Scary as hell.. He is the image of America

 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
30
86
Originally posted by: azazyel
first Gulf War. He knew how we would retaliate if he did.
In his memoirs, A World Transformed (1998), written with Brent Scowcroft, on pp. 489 - 490, George H.W. Bush prediected exactly what has happened:
Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.
Sound familiar? :Q If only his idiot son could read!
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
2,443
0
0
Now you've got something to die for.
Infidel, Imperial
Lust for blood, a blind crusade
Apocalyptic, we count the days.
Bombs to set the people free, blood to feed the dollar tree
Flags for coffins on the screen, oil for the machine
Army of the liberation, gunpoint indoctination
The fires of sedition
Fulfill the prophecy.
Now you've got something to die for.
Send the children to the fire, sons and daughters stack the pyre
Stoke the flame of the empire, live to lie another day
Face of hypocrisy, raping democracy
Apocalyptic, we count the days.
We'll never get out of this hole until we've dug our own grave
And drug the rest down with us, the burning home of the brave
Burn.
Now you've got something to die for.
 

Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: azazyel
first Gulf War. He knew how we would retaliate if he did.
In his memoirs, A World Transformed (1998), written with Brent Scowcroft, on pp. 489 - 490, George H.W. Bush prediected exactly what has happened:
Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.
Sound familiar? :Q If only his idiot son could read!

Harvey,
Scowcroft repeated much of the same in his August 15, 2002 OpEd piece in The Wall St. Journal:
Given Saddam's aggressive regional ambitions, as well as his
ruthlessness and unpredictability, it may at some point be wise to
remove him from power. Whether and when that point should come ought to
depend on overall U.S. national security priorities. Our pre-eminent
security priority -- underscored repeatedly by the president -- is the
war on terrorism. An attack on Iraq at this time would seriously
jeopardize, if not destroy, the global counterterrorist campaign we have
undertaken.

The United States could certainly defeat the Iraqi military and destroy
Saddam's regime. But it would not be a cakewalk. On the contrary, it
undoubtedly would be very expensive -- with serious consequences for the
U.S. and global economy -- and could as well be bloody. In fact, Saddam
would be likely to conclude he had nothing left to lose, leading him to
unleash whatever weapons of mass destruction he possesses.

Israel would have to expect to be the first casualty, as in 1991 when
Saddam sought to bring Israel into the Gulf conflict. This time, using
weapons of mass destruction, he might succeed, provoking Israel to
respond, perhaps with nuclear weapons, unleashing an Armageddon in the
Middle East. Finally, if we are to achieve our strategic objectives in
Iraq, a military campaign very likely would have to be followed by a
large-scale, long-term military occupation.

But the central point is that any campaign against Iraq, whatever the
strategy, cost and risks, is certain to divert us for some indefinite
period from our war on terrorism. Worse, there is a virtual consensus in
the world against an attack on Iraq at this time. So long as that
sentiment persists, it would require the U.S. to pursue a virtual
go-it-alone strategy against Iraq, making any military operations
correspondingly more difficult and expensive. The most serious cost,
however, would be to the war on terrorism. Ignoring that clear sentiment
would result in a serious degradation in international cooperation with
us against terrorism. And make no mistake, we simply cannot win that war
without enthusiastic international cooperation, especially on intelligence.

Possibly the most dire consequences would be the effect in the region.
The shared view in the region is that Iraq is principally an obsession
of the U.S. The obsession of the region, however, is the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If we were seen to be turning our backs on
that bitter conflict -- which the region, rightly or wrongly, perceives
to be clearly within our power to resolve -- in order to go after Iraq,
there would be an explosion of outrage against us. We would be seen as
ignoring a key interest of the Muslim world in order to satisfy what is
seen to be a narrow American interest.
Future Shock
 

ahurtt

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2001
4,283
0
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: azazyel
I still find the whole, "we're fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here" idea pretty weak. Especially since they came to us because we were over there in the first place.

And we have to be really stupid to believe pissing them off won't bring them here again.

Supposedly it only took about 25 of them to do all of the damage on 9/11 - Approximately 25 people killed nearly 4000 and did billions of dollars in damage .. something seems fishy

I guess he thinks or hopes that by creating an easy target. . .a flashpoint if you will. . .in Iraq, we can kill "them" before they ever get a chance to get here. I don't see how that is realistic at all though unless you are willing to do something REALLY drastic and barbaric on an epic scale to ensure TOTAL VICTORY. And I think you can guess what I'm hinting at.
 
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