OK let's finish this: Killing when is it OK in self defence?, read OP before Poll.

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,027
3
76
It has been brought screaming to my attention that I am in the extreme minority when it comes to my views on killing in self defence, which is making me question that perhaps I'm wrong to hold the view that I do. I'm more than happy to be wrong, but I won't accept that I am wrong without a reasoned argument to the contrary, or a superior argument to the one I make. So, here is my argument, the belief I hold with regards to killing a person in self defence.

Premise: Human life is the most valuable thing on the planet, it deserves respect, as human life has created some of the greatest and most terrible things the world has ever known, before that life is over we are unable to determine what potential each life has, whether they are a potential Ghandi or a potential Hitler is unknown, until their life has been lived, it is this potential that is unique to human beings, this potential is what gives a strangers life value, and that value requires respect.

Premise 2: As human life has value and requires respect taking a human beings life should only be done in cases where something of greater value would be lost or taken if no action is taken. I.e. If a person of known value will die, rather than unknown value, if multiple people will die rather than a single person, or if a person who has more potential or a more valuable contribution to the world will die if a person of lesser potential or value does not die. I.e. an 80 year old man has to die to save a 5 year old. Or Hitler has to die to save Ghandi.

Conclusion: In a home invasion scenario the invader should not be killed until it is absolutely clear that he/ she poses a very real an definite undeniable threat to the life or lives of others.

Please feel free to pick it apart, explaining what is wrong with it, how you feel contrary to it, and how I should feel.

Please do not just hurl insults and abuse, it benefits no one.

I am including in this thread a poll, that gives you the chance to say where you draw the line, where you think that killing an assailant in a hypothetical situation is acceptable. The situation is as follows.

A Man has broken into your home, while you are home, and while your family sleeps. You are woken by the noise, you are armed with a loaded handgun. The poll options are different points in this hypothetical at which you can choose to take the mans life, as the situation develops, please choose a poll option, then explain why you feel that way in the thread.

Please note, I won't reply to everyone, I imagine a lot of people will post.
 
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zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
Dude you seriously need to stop with this crap. You create a thread all the time for stuff when you already have threads on the same subject like food names and killing and crap.
 

alfa147x

Lifer
Jul 14, 2005
30,061
103
106
When a british person is involved.


America!

Also reported.
 
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ahenkel

Diamond Member
Jan 11, 2009
5,359
3
81
this thread does nothing but pad a post count that doesn't need padding. Also reported
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,137
382
126
if by man you mean machine, and if by machine you mean one that looks like this:


and/or if he posts troll threads...well I don't think I need to tell you what the appropriate action would be...
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,027
3
76
Dude you seriously need to stop with this crap. You create a thread all the time for stuff when you already have threads on the same subject like food names and killing and crap.

I hoping this will be the thread to end that, with me changing my mind.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,303
15
81
Premise: Human life is the most valuable thing on the planet, it deserves respect

This premise is not necessarily valid. Please explain in detail WHY human life is "the most valuable thing on the planet" and WHY it deserves respect.

IMO people who are productive, contributing members of society are indeed valuable and do indeed deserve respect and dignity. However, many people are not valuable to society and are in fact detrimental; they do not contribute, and the world would be a better place without them (for example, the attacker the woman killed in the other thread). In that particular case, humanity as a whole benefitted from her actions, just like humanity as a whole benefitted from the death of Osama bin Laden.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,303
15
81
Damn, I gave a serious answer to this thread. WTF was I thinking. BAN this mofo.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,027
3
76
This premise is not necessarily valid. Please explain in detail WHY human life is "the most valuable thing on the planet" and WHY it deserves respect.

IMO people who are productive, contributing members of society are indeed valuable and do indeed deserve respect and dignity. However, many people are not valuable to society and are in fact detrimental; they do not contribute, and the world would be a better place without them (for example, the attacker the woman killed in the other thread). In that particular case, humanity as a whole benefitted from her actions, just like humanity as a whole benefitted from the death of Osama bin Laden.

It's the potential of all life, if you don't know what that person offers, how they contribute then they have unknown potential.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
24
76
I hoping this will be the thread to end that, with me changing my mind.

I don't see what anyone could possibly say, that hasn't been said already, that would change your mind. Unfortunately, the only thing that will change your mind at this point is a very tragic event that hits way too close too home, and/or more life experience.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Conclusion: In a home invasion scenario the invader should not be killed until it is absolutely clear that he/ she poses a very real an definite undeniable threat to the life or lives of others.

Someone broke in to that ladies home, kicked in her door, and had a knife in his hand. That seems to be an undeniable threat to her life if you ask me.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,027
3
76
I don't see what anyone could possibly say, that hasn't been said already, that would change your mind. Unfortunately, the only thing that will change your mind at this point is a very tragic event that hits way too close too home, and/or more life experience.

I just want to know why you think your POV is more logical than mine, it will help me see if there's a better more logical reason out there.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
That's a different thread.


Yea, but you defended that attacker in that one.

If someone was unarmed and stealing my DVD player, I could understand some people questioning if it was the right thing to do for me shoot him.

When someone is actively trying to get to me, after breaking in my home and holding a deadly weapon, I consider that a clear intent to end my life and would not hesitate to shoot that person if I was able.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,027
3
76
Yea, but you defended that attacker in that one.

If someone was unarmed and stealing my DVD player, I could understand some people questioning if it was the right thing to do for me shoot him.

When someone is actively trying to get to me, after breaking in my home and holding a deadly weapon, I consider that a clear intent to end my life and would not hesitate to shoot that person if I was able.

OK fair enough, so going with that, why do you make the jump from going after you with a weapon to trying to kill you.
 
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