Oklahoma Cop Sues Department Over Mosque Assignment

[monovillage]

monovillage

I guess the concept of a "lawful order" is outside of the realm of your knowledge.

Reason and logic do not seem to be very popular here for some.

It's under litigation, the deputy captain didn't think it was a lawful order and refused it.

 

[cybrsage]

It isn't a double standard. There is a huge difference between a group that promotes murder, hatred, and violence and a group that merely disagrees with you about which version of God to worship. How do you not see this?

You obviously have a very myopic view of Islam. Try looking at how Islam treats the non-Islamic in nations where they control the government. After you do, you will recant your statement.

 

[Abraxas]

Sharia Law [ie-Islamic law,ie-Muslim beliefs] implies that you are a lesser being if you are not Muslim. Islam expects all non-Muslims to eventually become Dhimmi's or convert; meaning you should pay taxes for not being a Muslim and you are a second class citizen [and ofc you are the target of crazy muslims who will kill you...for not being Muslim].

For non-Muslims, the threat of Islam ever taking over is as scary as the Nazi party was to the Jews. Lets not forget that in the MODERN world TODAY, the places that are the most oppressive to minorities by far is Muslim majority nations, where if you are not a Muslim you face the threat of death daily and have your rights restricted 10 fold below what a Muslim has.



http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...ghbors-accuse-burning-koran-article-1.1140456

"Pakistani police have arrested a Christian girl on blasphemy charges after hundreds of neighbors gathered outside her house and accused her of burning pages from the Koran."


Stories like that are common every day in the Muslim world...Yet we are supposed to feel all warm and fuzzy when they move over here, and "understand" them and their ways ? Rigggght.

One, you and yours are a lot scarier than Sharia law; the villains so certain of their moral fortitude and righteousness as they push the world further down the path of xenophobia, paranoia, violence, and hatred.

Secondly, suppose for a moment you are right, that the Muslims are a violent people that spit out terrorists like so many watermelon seeds on an Independence Day barbeque as you seem to believe. What is the smart way to approach that from a policing standpoint? You can either, a, treat them like outcasts, like the enemy, refusing their overtures and generally snub them reinforcing their views that you are their enemy and that you are out to get them and will treat them unfairly all because they have a different answer than you to the name of their magical sky friend, or, b, you can interact with them, find common ground, help to integrate them into the community and establish bonds with them so that if someone does go off the rails and starts down the death to America crap they actually report it before someone dies. Which do you choose?

Or perhaps that's a false dilemma and you are looking for a more, shall we say, final solution to the Muslim problem because that is the vibe I'm getting from you.

 

[Abraxas]

You obviously have a very myopic view of Islam. Try looking at how Islam treats the non-Islamic in nations where they control the government. After you do, you will recant your statement.

Yes, fundamentalist Islamic governments treat non-Muslims very badly. That is not representative of Islam as a whole, especially not Muslims who live in Western democracies, which, you know, is where these Muslims live. If we rewind the clock a few hundred years and say "oh, look how horrible Christianity is, all the major Christian nations do crap like burn nonbelievers and heretics at the stake" as was the case during medieval Europe, you wouldn't accept that as an indictment of the whole of Christianity, nor should you. Is it any wonder some of the poorest and most violent places on Earth haven't yet broken out of a Dark Age mentality? That these places happen to be Muslim is not an indictment of Islam as a whole.

 

[cybrsage]

Yes, fundamentalist Islamic governments treat non-Muslims very badly. That is not representative of Islam as a whole, especially not Muslims who live in Western democracies, which, you know, is where these Muslims live. If we rewind the clock a few hundred years and say "oh, look how horrible Christianity is, all the major Christian nations do crap like burn nonbelievers and heretics at the stake" as was the case during medieval Europe, you wouldn't accept that as an indictment of the whole of Christianity, nor should you. Is it any wonder some of the poorest and most violent places on Earth haven't yet broken out of a Dark Age mentality? That these places happen to be Muslim is not an indictment of Islam as a whole.

We are talking about today...not hundreds of years ago...nor hundreds of years in the future. It would be silly to use either one of these as a basis instead of using what is happening today.

The majority of Muslims live in the Middle East and therefor is representative of Islam as a whole. Silly to say the place where most Muslims live cannot be used as representative as to how most Muslims live.

Ethiopia is mostly Christian, dirt poor, and very backwards. The government there does not treat non-Christians like second class citizens. Why not, their neighboring Islamic countries treat non-Muslims like second class citizens?

 

[Abraxas]

Yes, we are looking at today. More specifically we are looking today in America where the Muslim population does not, at large, do what you are complaining about Muslims doing. Or, put another way:

"We are talking about America...not the Middle East...nor North Africa. It would be silly to use either one of these as a basis instead of using what is happening here.

The majority of Christians theocracies lived in the brutal oppression of non-Christians and therefor is representative of Christianity as a whole. Silly to say the social structure that most Christian Theocracies imposed cannot be used as representative as to how most Christians treat other religions."

 

[Incorruptible]

Sharia Law [ie-Islamic law,ie-Muslim beliefs] implies that you are a lesser being if you are not Muslim. Islam expects all non-Muslims to eventually become Dhimmi's or convert; meaning you should pay taxes for not being a Muslim and you are a second class citizen [and ofc you are the target of crazy muslims who will kill you...for not being Muslim].

For non-Muslims, the threat of Islam ever taking over is as scary as the Nazi party was to the Jews. Lets not forget that in the MODERN world TODAY, the places that are the most oppressive to minorities by far is Muslim majority nations, where if you are not a Muslim you face the threat of death daily and have your rights restricted 10 fold below what a Muslim has.



http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...ghbors-accuse-burning-koran-article-1.1140456

"Pakistani police have arrested a Christian girl on blasphemy charges after hundreds of neighbors gathered outside her house and accused her of burning pages from the Koran."


Stories like that are common every day in the Muslim world...Yet we are supposed to feel all warm and fuzzy when they move over here, and "understand" them and their ways ? Rigggght.

Well said. Christians are being persecuted by islamists and no one cares especially when its happening right here in the US

 

[Gunslinger08]

Cops shouldn't be sent to BS events. Christians shouldn't be so sensitive. Unchallenged faith isn't faith at all.

 

[Incorruptible]

Cops shouldn't be sent to BS events. Christians shouldn't be so sensitive. Unchallenged faith isn't faith at all.

There is nothing wrong with a community outreach event BUT having prayers is just wrong

 

[DoctorA]

Originally Posted by peonyu
Sharia Law [ie-Islamic law,ie-Muslim beliefs] implies that you are a lesser being if you are not Muslim. Islam expects all non-Muslims to eventually become Dhimmi's or convert; meaning you should pay taxes for not being a Muslim and you are a second class citizen [and ofc you are the target of crazy muslims who will kill you...for not being Muslim].

What’s Wrong With Sharia Law?
by Dr. David Liepert
Do you know the craziest thing about all the efforts North American non-Muslims are undertaking to prevent North America’s Muslims from bringing Sharia Law to North America?
Islamically, there’s actually no such thing as Sharia Law in the first place.
But all those efforts, and all the confusion that surrounds them, make us wonder whether we Muslims who live here will eventually have to make what we consider a false choice, between our country and our religion.
Because the simple truth is, to most Muslims, for everything other than what we consider the “5 pillar items” like our declaration of faith, our charity, our prayers, our pilgrimage and our fasting in Ramadan, rather than a rigidly fixed set of laws, al-Sharia, “the path to the water hole” is a set of principles (principles like equality, justice, and the importance of linking rights to responsibilities and risks to rewards) promoting a set of simple practices (like living humbly, serving God and minding your own business) that Muslims believe are divinely ordained and therefore perfect. And so we also believe that if they were followed perfectly that would give us a perfect world.
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/whats-wrong-with-sharia-law


Do Muslims want to reimpose dhimmitude or live as equals?

http://spencerwatch.com/2010/05/22/do-muslims-want-to-reimpose-dhimmitude-or-live-as-equals/

More about "shariah"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/sharia_1.shtml

http://www.islamicity.com/politics/shariah.htm

 

[Incorruptible]

What’s Wrong With Sharia Law?
by Dr. David Liepert
Do you know the craziest thing about all the efforts North American non-Muslims are undertaking to prevent North America’s Muslims from bringing Sharia Law to North America?
Islamically, there’s actually no such thing as Sharia Law in the first place.
But all those efforts, and all the confusion that surrounds them, make us wonder whether we Muslims who live here will eventually have to make what we consider a false choice, between our country and our religion.
Because the simple truth is, to most Muslims, for everything other than what we consider the “5 pillar items” like our declaration of faith, our charity, our prayers, our pilgrimage and our fasting in Ramadan, rather than a rigidly fixed set of laws, al-Sharia, “the path to the water hole” is a set of principles (principles like equality, justice, and the importance of linking rights to responsibilities and risks to rewards) promoting a set of simple practices (like living humbly, serving God and minding your own business) that Muslims believe are divinely ordained and therefore perfect. And so we also believe that if they were followed perfectly that would give us a perfect world.
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/whats-wrong-with-sharia-law


Do Muslims want to reimpose dhimmitude or live as equals?

http://spencerwatch.com/2010/05/22/do-muslims-want-to-reimpose-dhimmitude-or-live-as-equals/

More about "shariah"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/sharia_1.shtml

http://www.islamicity.com/politics/shariah.htm

Nice attempt to sugarcoat the truth about sharia law which states women aren't equal

 

[alzan]

I dont hate Muslims. Yes I did say that BUT some idiot leftists said that insulting there religion is causing an incitement of riot even though its free speech so I am just using that excuse against them.

It seems that its OK for muslims to attack christians but not the other way around

It may seem that way to you but you have to step outside yourself and re-examine the issue.

P.S. Please feel free to post from the other thread where I said the Muslims were in their right to attack the Christians. You'll have trouble finding it, because I never said it.

 

[cybrsage]

I am curious, is attending police appreciation functions actually part of the official job description of the police? I do not know. I understand the importance of it in helping the police gain the trust of the community - which makes their job MUCH easier...but is it actually officially a part of their job?

Anyone actually know the answer to this? It is the key part as to whether he had to go or not.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Anyone actually know the answer to this? It is the key part as to whether he had to go or not.

You'll find it under "and any other duties as deemed appropriate"

 

[cybrsage]

Do they actually have something that says this?

 

[Abraxas]

Do they actually have something that says this?

Should they? I don't know about where you work but to my knowledge there is no official comprehensive list of duties I am expected to carry out at my place of employment. I have a set time I work there, during that time I am assigned tasks by my employer by those empowered to make those decisions to achieve the desired ends of the employer. My boss then tells me what I am supposed to be doing, which at times deviates from my regularly scheduled activities. A lot of having a job is it being whatever your boss says it is at a given moment and you having three choices; do it, find another job, or refuse and challenge it with whatever appeals process is in place when they punish you. He chose door number three, and, personally, I hope they drop the hammer on him even harder for it.

 

[cybrsage]

I am just trying to see how much merit the guys "not a lawful order" case has. All (that I know of) union jobs have job descriptions - and doubly so when they are public union jobs.

If I was him, I would have gone when no one else volunteered to go. It is good for community outreach. No one expects cops to believe everything all the people in their area believe - since that would be impossible. He just needed to show them respect, especially since he wants it from them.

Had the service started railing against Christianity in any way, or against the government, or such, then he should have just quietly gotten up and walked out. I suspect they would not have been that stupid, though.

 

[Rangoric]

Nice attempt to sugarcoat the truth about sharia law which states women aren't equal

And you didn't actually read what he wrote. Good job!

 

[her209]

I am curious, is attending police appreciation functions actually part of the official job description of the police? I do not know. I understand the importance of it in helping the police gain the trust of the community - which makes their job MUCH easier...but is it actually officially a part of their job?

Other duties as assigned. Also, he's a police captain, not just some lowly officer.

Anyways, here's what the 2011-2012 FOP CBA says:

ARTICLE 1 Section 2 Those Employees in the classification of Captain and above shall be
covered by the terms and conditions of employment set forth in this Agreement, except in certain
specific Articles, wherein they are addressed.

ARTICLE 2 Section 2 Except as may be limited herein, Employer retains the rights in accordance
with the constitution and laws of the State of Oklahoma and the responsibilities and duties
contained in the Charter of the City of Tulsa and the ordinances and regulations promulgated
thereunder as follows:

(a) To determine Police Department policy including the rights to manage the
affairs of the Police Department in all respects;
(b) To assign working hours, including overtime;
(c) To direct the members of the Police Department, including the right to
hire, promote, or transfer any employee;
(d) To discipline, suspend or terminate any employee for good and sufficient
cause (good and sufficient cause is synonymous with "just cause");
(e) To determine the organizational chart of the Police Department, including
the right to organize and reorganize the Police Department and the
determination of job classifications and ranks based upon duties assigned;
(f) To determine the safety, health, and property protection measures for the
Police Department;
(g) To allocate and assign work to all Employees within the Police
Department;
(h) To be the sole judge of the qualifications of applicants and training of new
Employees;
(i) To schedule the operations and to determine the number and duration of
hours of assigned duty per work period provided that any hours worked in
excess of forty (40) hours per work period shall be considered overtime;
3
(j) To establish and enforce Police Department rules, regulations, and orders;
(k) To introduce new, improved, or different methods and techniques of
Police Department operation or change existing methods and techniques;
(l) To determine the amount of supervision necessary;
(m) To control the departmental budget;
(n) To take whatever actions may be necessary to carry out the mission of
Employer in situations of emergency.

ARTICLE 21 Section 9 The Police Chief or designee may assign an employee holding the rank of
Corporal and above to perform the job duties of a higher-ranking position. Employees assigned
to such positions are expected to perform the job duties in accordance with performance
standards set forth by the Police Chief or designee. An employee performing out-ofclassification
tasks that are of short duration, involve only a few additional duties, or
predominantly involve duties performed by equal or lower grade positions shall not be eligible
for out-of-classification pay.

 

[cybrsage]

None of that says what their duties are, though. It just says they can be assigned out of classification dutes without additional pay (provided those dutes are of short duration) and that bosses can tell people they have to work overtime and that bosses can assign work to people.

I am simply trying to see if his lawsuit has merit. So far, it appears it does as there is nothing that says the police have to attend officer appreciation events other than as extra security - and no one was assigned the job due to the need for extra security.

This is the Tulsa Oath of Office:

Oath of Office

Having been duly appointed a police officer of the City of Tulsa and peace officer of the State of Oklahoma, I do solemnly swear that I will defend, enforce, and obey the Constitution and laws of the United States, the State of Oklahoma, and the Charter and Ordinances of the City of Tulsa.
That I will obey the lawful orders of my superior officers and the regulations of the Tulsa Police Department.
That I will protect the rights, lives, and property of all citizens and uphold the honor of the police profession with my life if need be.
This I solemnly swear.

http://www.tulsapolice.org/join-tpd/oath-of-office.aspx

But he is saying it was not a lawful order.

 

[cybrsage]

Ah, here we go:

Minimum Requirements Tulsa Police Applicants

Tulsa City Ordinance defines the duties of Tulsa Police Officers:

Police Officers shall be those persons who are employed for the purpose of
maintaining order, preventing and detecting crime, protecting the rights, lives
and property of citizens and enforcing the laws.

http://www.tulsapolice.org/join-tpd/min-requirements.aspx

Now to find the exact ordinance to see what it really says, since this is simply a synopsis. If the synopsis is correct, the order was not a lawful order and his suit has merit and he should win.

 

[cybrsage]

CHAPTER 1. - POLICE DEPARTMENT, PERSONNEL, RECORDS

Section 105. - Duties of Chief.

It shall be the duty of the Chief of Police to preserve the public peace, to prevent the commission of crime, to arrest offenders, to protect the rights of persons and property, to provide police officers at fires to protect the firefighters and property, to suppress riots and insurrections and disperse unlawful and dangerous assemblies, to preserve order at all elections and all public meetings and assemblies, to prevent and regulate the movement of vehicles in the streets and to prevent the violation of all laws and ordinances.

Section 106. - Powers of Chief.

The Chief of Police shall have general supervision of the Department, and shall be accountable to the Mayor for the promulgation of all orders or regulations made or given to the Department. Every member of the Police Department shall respect and obey all orders issued by the Chief. It shall be the duty of the Chief to confer fully with and be advised by the Mayor on all important matters pertaining to the government of the Department.

http://library.municode.com/HTML/14783/level3/SUHITA_TIT29PODE_CH1PODEPERE.html

The Conducts and Standards is pretty vague. The only thing it says which is relevant to the issue we are discussing is that the police have to know the laws they are enforcing.
http://library.municode.com/HTML/14783/level3/SUHITA_TIT29PODE_CH2COST.html

I also looked through the Executive Orders, but none of them apply to this topic.
http://www.cityoftulsa.org/our-city/city-charter--ordinances/executive-orders.aspx


I have to conclude the order to attend was not lawful and therefor he is in his rights to not obey it. It was STUPID to not go, though. After this, I suspect the ordinances will be amended. The problem is that the KKK (or some like minded group) will quickly hold a police appreciation event to foce the police to attend...but there is nothing to be done about that.

 

[alzan]

Ah, here we go:


http://www.tulsapolice.org/join-tpd/min-requirements.aspx

Now to find the exact ordinance to see what it really says, since this is simply a synopsis. If the synopsis is correct, the order was not a lawful order and his suit has merit and he should win.

It's a little bit of a stretch but I can see how attending community outreach events falls within the Minimum Requirements. As you yourself stated, helping the community gain the trust and respect of the police department and vice-versa could indeed be seen as helping officers detect crime (receiving tips from the community) and certainly protecting the rights, lives and property of citizens.

 

[Incorruptible]

It may seem that way to you but you have to step outside yourself and re-examine the issue.

P.S. Please feel free to post from the other thread where I said the Muslims were in their right to attack the Christians. You'll have trouble finding it, because I never said it.

You said in that other thread about the Michigan Attack the muslims were in there right to attack the Christians for "starting a riot"

 

[Abraxas]

I have to conclude the order to attend was not lawful and therefor he is in his rights to not obey it. It was STUPID to not go, though. After this, I suspect the ordinances will be amended. The problem is that the KKK (or some like minded group) will quickly hold a police appreciation event to foce the police to attend...but there is nothing to be done about that.

On what basis do you hold it wasn't legal? Just because it isn't on their public website doesn't mean it isn't in the employee handbook, which is as far as I can tell, is not publicly available.

Also, there is something that can be done, the Police Department can as a matter of policy refuse to attend a KKK event, and almost certainly would. In this case, the Department decided it was going to attend but one individual within the department refused.