OMFG - Microsoft to sell broadband routers and switches

NicColt

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2000
4,362
0
71
Microsoft Broadband Networking

Who in their right mind would even consider buying broadband routers and switches or even 'God forbid a firewall' from Microsoft. Am I missing something here or is Microsoft digging thier own graves with this one.
 

vash

Platinum Member
Feb 13, 2001
2,510
0
0
Keep in mind that MS probably didn't engineer the routers, hubs or switches -- they are probably slapping their names on the hardware. On the other hand, I couldn't live without the MS Natural Keyboards! Even linux users love that keyboard.

vash
 

FoldingMan

Junior Member
Sep 2, 2002
23
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Microsofts OS's and software may have it's problems but their hardware is top notch. ie Intellimouse Explorer 3.0
 

NicColt

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2000
4,362
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71
Ok I understand the keyboards and mice but would you trust a microsoft firewall ?

(damm I think I posted this in the wrong forum)
 

nirgis

Senior member
Mar 4, 2001
636
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Microsoft is a trusted brand... I would buy from them if the produc got good reviews
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
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Originally posted by: NicColt
Ok I understand the keyboards and mice but would you trust a microsoft firewall ?

(damm I think I posted this in the wrong forum)

They have a firewall product out there. Its been out there for a while now.
 

ElDonAntonio

Senior member
Aug 4, 2001
967
0
0
Originally posted by: NicColt
Ok I understand the keyboards and mice but would you trust a microsoft firewall ?

(damm I think I posted this in the wrong forum)

I agree with NicColt. Anything security-wise coming from Microsoft is a big joke.
 

tritium4ever

Senior member
Mar 17, 2002
402
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71
Originally posted by: FoldingMan
Microsofts OS's and software may have it's problems but their hardware is top notch. ie Intellimouse Explorer 3.0

This is SOOOOO true. Their software is hit and miss (though Windows XP is fantastic, easily the best software product they've ever released), but their hardware consistently ranks among the best. I expect the same for these new networking products.
 

Mavrick007

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2001
3,198
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Originally posted by: tritium4ever
Originally posted by: FoldingMan
Microsofts OS's and software may have it's problems but their hardware is top notch. ie Intellimouse Explorer 3.0

This is SOOOOO true. Their software is hit and miss (though Windows XP is fantastic, easily the best software product they've ever released), but their hardware consistently ranks among the best. I expect the same for these new networking products.

I hope you're joking cause that's just hilarious. WinXP has had more bugs and security issues than you can shake a stick at. "The most secure OS" has been the least secure and frought with problems. Maybe when Blackcomb comes out WinXP and the SP's will correct most of the problems as well as give MS a view into what you had for breakfast (Don't like the fact that it's spying on you).
 

gsaldivar

Diamond Member
Apr 30, 2001
8,691
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"...WinXP has had more bugs and security issues than you can shake a stick at. "The most secure OS" has been the least secure and frought with problems..."

Excluding those who have an axe to grind against Microsoft, I think you'll find that the majority of XP users are generally satisfied with the XP's performance. I've found it to be both secure, and stable. While there is still room for improvement, Windows XP is easily the best OS Microsoft has ever released.

Assuming no major problems with the quality of the hardware, I wouldn't hesitate to buy Microsoft routers, switches or firewalls - if the price is right.

 

FoldingMan

Junior Member
Sep 2, 2002
23
0
0
Originally posted by: Mavrick007
Originally posted by: tritium4ever
Originally posted by: FoldingMan
Microsofts OS's and software may have it's problems but their hardware is top notch. ie Intellimouse Explorer 3.0

This is SOOOOO true. Their software is hit and miss (though Windows XP is fantastic, easily the best software product they've ever released), but their hardware consistently ranks among the best. I expect the same for these new networking products.

I hope you're joking cause that's just hilarious. WinXP has had more bugs and security issues than you can shake a stick at. "The most secure OS" has been the least secure and frought with problems. Maybe when Blackcomb comes out WinXP and the SP's will correct most of the problems as well as give MS a view into what you had for breakfast (Don't like the fact that it's spying on you).

I would bet that if as many people used a unix/linux OS that there would be more bugs found in it that in XP, ioncluding security problems which there are some serious ones in unix/linux,
 

tritium4ever

Senior member
Mar 17, 2002
402
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71
Ahhh the classic OS debate. But it's true: let 100 million people use Linux and I guarantee you'll be smothered in bug reports.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
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Yeah, Unix and Linux suck. Why bother? Lets use XP that has had major flaws discovered before it was released, and according to major microsoft guys it would put the security of the country at risk ift he source was opened up. The default install is pretty secure right? Guys? Helllo?
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
The lead Windows developer admits that Windows isn't developed with security in mind and you want to buy hardware from that would be key in securing your network?

Ahhh the classic OS debate. But it's true: let 100 million people use Linux and I guarantee you'll be smothered in bug reports.

I don't doubt it. The majority of them would probably superficial things and other 'wants' from people who want to make Linux work like Windows. But how many of them will be of the severity that when you click on a link in a web browser any file on your system can potentially be deleted?
 

ElDonAntonio

Senior member
Aug 4, 2001
967
0
0
Originally posted by: gsaldivar
"...WinXP has had more bugs and security issues than you can shake a stick at. "The most secure OS" has been the least secure and frought with problems..."

Excluding those who have an axe to grind against Microsoft, I think you'll find that the majority of XP users are generally satisfied with the XP's performance. I've found it to be both secure, and stable. While there is still room for improvement, Windows XP is easily the best OS Microsoft has ever released.

I'm no big MS basher, and I'm not an MS lover either, but I think that XP is not as solid and clean as 2K. It's way too bloated and more crash-prone (based on personal experience with a few PCs).
I think that the majority of users are "satisfied" because they don't have anything to compare it to. I hate the registry. I hate the whole C:\Windows mess of files. I hate the My Documents folder which contains hidden folders you'll NEVER be able to see unless you use some third party file browser. I hate the fact that even though I tell IE to reserve 10MB for the Internet cache it takes up 5 times this amount. I hate Outlook Express which I don't want but still creeps in my system. When you think about it, you'll see there are LOTS of things you hate about Windows, but you're just used to them.

I'm not saying Unix or Linux is better, they have also a very large share of annoyances and they're far from user-friendliness (even Red Hat).
 

Mavrick007

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2001
3,198
0
0
MS's hardware is pretty solid and overall I think they are providing pretty decent advancements for the computing world.. but there is another thing to think about. If I'm going to pay $200-300 bucks for an OS which was touted as "the most secure" OS ever, then I want to get that. If I want to use Linux/Unix or some other OS out there then I am basically taking a chance cause they're going to have security issues and bugs.. but Linux is free the last time that I looked and they don't have the R&D expenditures that MS does or the huge team of engineers and programmers so I would expect them to not be as secure.

Hey I use Winblows but it's not cause it's what I want, it's what I basically have to use cause most of the programs that I want are made for it. People have become pretty accepting of the flaws in Windows and MS products. Why should I be forced to use something that they provide or better yet if I don't want to use it, at least give me the option to take it off. Supposedly the new Service packs will allow you to do this. The OS is bloated enough. Yes they make the statements "now" that it's not developed with security in mind, but that's only after so many people are pointing out all the flaws and security holes. It's pretty scary. Most people probably don't even know what's happening behind the scenes while their computer is on. Heck, before I had a firewall I couldn't shut down cause I had someone connected in a session to my computer and it asked me if I wanted to end the session and noone was online on my P2P network and I didn't have any of my apps running that I knew of. It happens so often with Windows cause that's what most people target since most people, at least most home pcs, use Windows and MS products so they are the main victims for virii and security attacks. In ways, even though Linux and other OS' may be more "insecure" they might be overlooked and in turn be safer since MS is being targeted.

Yes I have a beef, but it's just cause I like to get what I paid for cause I don't like to accept or just "live with it" if there's a problem.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
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Security is a strange beast. No one can really tell you what it is, but instead say its a process. Yes, its a process. An ever changing process that indeed moves too quickly for most people, let alone companies to deal with. Companies like Microsoft have several disadvantages when it comes to security (in my opinion). First, Windows XP was built on other flawed operating systems. Security was an after thought (yes, I know this is true with other systems, keep reading ). There is nothing out there for them to compare to besides their own previous operating systems. Linux was also basically a first of its kind (I dont want to get into minix/whatever technicalities, just go with it). But, it had ~30 years of Unix experience to use, to learn from, to have the choice of not making the same mistakes. Unix didnt start out with security in mind (although many of the frameworks were there early on I believe), but it quickly learned that this was important. When linux came out it wasnt built for security. It was a "lets see if I can do this" type of thing. When the system was built they realized that they needed security. Since those beginning months, security has been worked on with linux. Linux developers dont have to worry as much about something in linux changing, and changing the way things work. If that breaks a program, they release and apology, an explanation, and maybe some hints on ways to get the programs to work again. Microsoft on the other hand still allows old 16bit programs to run. Why? Because companies would get angry if they could not run their old programs they rely on. While this is not a bad goal, it adds complexity and whatnot to your code. The more complex the code is, the better chance of you missing something important. K.I.S.S.

Another problem Microsoft has that linux does not have to deal with in quite the same way is the education of their users. No offence is meant to anyone here as I am sure all of the Microsoft users on this forum are wizzes, but the computer literacy of an avverage Microsoft user is lower than that of the average linux user (please lets not make this a debate). Because of this Microsoft has to cater to the lowest common denominator, a computer illiterate PHB type that shakes the etch-a-scetch to clear the screen. In these scenarios, Microsoft wants to leave everything open by default to make it easier for the users to use the desktop, instead of forcing them to learn and open what they need. Linux on the other hand has 2 distinct advantages. First, there are several distrobutions of linux. Each one could be geared towards a different market. While I dont think thats a great solution (newbies shouldnt have everything open!), its one of the things that seems to be happening right now. A "class divide," Slacking elites and the Mandrake newbies. Anyhow, enough with that tangent The second advantage I see is that Linux users are generally more computer savvy than Microsoft users, which allows the distrobutions to close everything off and allow the admint o open what he needs.

I see Microsoft, and every other proprietary OS distributer, as having a disadvantage in the security arena over the open source or free operating sytems. They arent able to keep up and it is making them look bad.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
MS's hardware is pretty solid and overall I think they are providing pretty decent advancements for the computing world..

I don't believe they actually make any of the hardware they sell, it's just branded with their label.

but there is another thing to think about. If I'm going to pay $200-300 bucks for an OS which was touted as "the most secure" OS ever, then I want to get that. If I want to use Linux/Unix or some other OS out there then I am basically taking a chance cause they're going to have security issues and bugs.. but Linux is free the last time that I looked and they don't have the R&D expenditures that MS does or the huge team of engineers and programmers so I would expect them to not be as secure.

If I promote a car as the 'fastest car ever' it's easily measurable and if I'm lying it's pretty obvious, but there's no guage for security. I can tout my product as the most secure ever and there's no real way to test the thing without the source and even then you won't catch all the bugs.

After using Linux as my primary OS for a few years I'm to the point where I expect commercial software to be much worse than OSS software. After using so much braindead software that does so many stupid things based on so many stupid assumptions you become very pessimistic. And the things that sell these commercial products aren't even technical merit, it's pretty buttons and buzzwords.

People have become pretty accepting of the flaws in Windows and MS products.

That's the biggest problem, people are content with their software crashing every few days and their computers needing rebooted frequently. Noone would stand for a car that randomly shut off every other week, the car would get recalled and the company reamed in the news.

If Windows is going to run things that people's lives depend on there needs to be more quality control. This may sound backwards from my normal OSS promoting "source code should be free" posts, but it's possible (although not likely) to have both. If Win32 is what the world wants it should become an open standard with a comittee governing changes. I think that would work out well, although the transition would probably be rocky and MS would surely be pissed. Why should 1 company be allowed to control a resource the world is dependent on?

Why should I be forced to use something that they provide or better yet if I don't want to use it, at least give me the option to take it off. Supposedly the new Service packs will allow you to do this

They allow you to remove the icons for IE and OE, you can't remove the software too much is dependent on it being there. It's basically lip service to the gov't.

Yes they make the statements "now" that it's not developed with security in mind, but that's only after so many people are pointing out all the flaws and security holes.

AFAIK he was/is the Windows project lead for a while so it's probably nothing new, although it's probably the first time it's been officially stated.

It's pretty scary. Most people probably don't even know what's happening behind the scenes while their computer is on.

Technically they shouldn't have to, I don't know how my car engine works I just care that it continues to do so.
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
8,086
0
0
Originally posted by: FoldingMan
Microsofts OS's and software may have it's problems but their hardware is top notch. ie Intellimouse Explorer 3.0

Uhm ... there's a HUGE difference in complexity between mice & keyboards and switches & routers.

On a cynical note...
Wanna bet this hardware has "features" in it that can only be exploited by MS OS?
 

Mavrick007

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2001
3,198
0
0
Hehe Aren't I the disturber. This is good though cause people need to think about this stuff.

Education of the products and maybe just more awareness needs to be taken because I don't necessarily need to know what the exact pathways or files need to be connected in order to know how Word works, but knowing that you could be susceptible to a hole or breach in security in certain areas should be a concern. "Basic" understanding should be known cause if my car stops in the middle of nowhere, I want to be able to at least know a few things that could be the problem and maybe correct it so I can get back home. But you're right, if this had happened in the automobile industry, it would have caused an uproar and the media would have been all over it. Quality control is an issue and it needs to be addressed. There needs to be standards and changes to meet demands. For example, not just one brand of car comes with seatbelts now, they all come with them standard.

I guess my problem with it is, don't say the product is the most secure if it doesn't have at least some semblance to being secure. I can say that my car is the fastest out there and it probably is fast, it may even be the fastest one around today even though something faster might be out tomorrow, but at least it lives up partially to what I stated. They may not have stated officially that development wasn't done with security in mind originally, but they did use the security issue in promoting the product along with ease of use and new and powerful functions.

I deal with security audits and I know that most users are not aware of the insecurity of their systems and they have sensitive data that is confidential and should not be seen even by other areas within the same organization so it does become a concern of mine, and I think that users should be aware so that either they or someone else can safeguard their systems, maybe by adding extra measures themselves. It's getting so that all the patches are even causing problems now. I've heard that some may shut down functionality of previous patches.

Whatever the case, I was glad to vent a bit You guys bring up some good points.

It doesn't fix things, but maybe it will make people more aware and less accepting cause it is your $ that these big companies, like MS gets. I wasn't aware that the new SP's do not allow you to take the programs out, just hides it from view. About MS hardware though, if I was going to put my name onto something even if I didn't make it as long as I am signing off on it, I would want it to be as bug free as possible, or I would do whatever I had to do to correct it. I wouldn't let the same flaws happen in the next version or release if possible. MS does have alot to live up to, but that's why it gets your hard earned bucks.
 

Chubs

Member
Apr 4, 2001
144
0
0
OK, let's actually look at some sort of actual data before we declare MS rotten and opensource good. Open source code does NOT equal secure software. It doesn't equal more secure software either. If you look at the list in the link below you'll see some of the leaders in vulnerability counts are Red Hat and Mandrake Linux. Sun is also up there. Whoever was mentioning that popularity of software has a lot to do with the number of security holes found has their theory held up pretty well by the data.



Security Focus Vulnerability Listings
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: Chubs
OK, let's actually look at some sort of actual data before we declare MS rotten and opensource good. Open source code does NOT equal secure software. It doesn't equal more secure software either. If you look at the list in the link below you'll see some of the leaders in vulnerability counts are Red Hat and Mandrake Linux. Sun is also up there. Whoever was mentioning that popularity of software has a lot to do with the number of security holes found has their theory held up pretty well by the data.



Security Focus Vulnerability Listings

Now, lets take Time To Patch into consideration. Patches for open source and free software usually appear within 24 hours of vulnerability disclosure. Microsoft is not the only proprietary software source that has problems with speed, most of those companies do (Im personally unhappy with Apple's speed at releasing patches). We hear stories, read links, see press releases that Microsoft has held onto vulnerability information for weeks or months before releasing patches, and have even released patches that do not solve the problems (they were infamous for this with their DOS based operating systems).

My lack of faith in Microsoft's ability to make a secure product is almost entirely based on their previous releases. They keep screwing up and not showing enough promise. The Apache Foundation or whatever it is called continues to strive for a better product. The OpenBSD develoment group is making some interresting changes to help secure their software.

By the way, in 2001 only 14 vulnerabilities were found in OpenBSD. It may not be the most widely used operating system out there, but it seems to be one of the most despised. Tht has to say something.
 
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