On Atheism vs. Christianity

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
To shira:

A gem manifests as it's facets but is more than the sum of them. The window from which the light of God manifests in in your heart and the heart of every person. But what does it matter if it is you, the window or God that is important if the window is shuttered and allows no light to pass. Perhaps you say that religion is a coping mechanism because you are coping........... with darkness. I believe that truth, the way it is spoken of or pointed to is dependent on the time and place, the condition of the people in which the Knower finds him or her self. I have heard it said that you speak to each according to his understanding.

Perhaps I say religion is a coping mechanism because it's true.

Perhaps you make statements about knowers and God and Sufi "masters" because the prospect of none of these actually existing is a darkness with which YOU cannot cope.

Well there is always those weirdo Zen masters who claim there's not a tile above for their heads or below to step on yet are saying exactly the same thing.

Mulla Nasrudin was walking along with a disciple on day and a dervish came toward them on the path. He pointed to the sky indicating that 'there is one truth and it covers us all'. The student felt a sudden chill at the approach of a mad man but relaxed as the Mulla held up a rope he was carrying replying, 'and ordinary mankind tries to reach that truth by means as ridiculous as trying to climb into the sky on a rope'. Yes, thought the student. If he tries anything we will tie him up.

Thus goes my conversation with you, shira. You have a full tea cup and I can't pour any tea in it. You have your pride that you are courageous in the face meaningless emptiness and that is your reward. Truth is for those who have longing, for the princess who feels the pea of the terrible pain of existence through 39 mattresses. You have your satisfaction. Truth is for the dissatisfied.

But remember there are those who come to truth via total emptiness, folk whose coping mechanisms have been totally ripped away including all forms of pride, folk who can do nothing but fall down and cry.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Without God you are merely a more evolved version of a bee, so what is important to you is no more relevant than what is important to the bee. 100 years from now you're both dead anyway.

And with god, what happens? You die, go to heaven, only to sit around all day and watch angels play harps? How does god solve the 'meaninglessness of life' problem?

Singing. Lots of singing. And shiny gold. Lots of shiny gold.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
You know nothing of my overdraft incident other than that it happened (once), not sure why you are bringing it up, or how its relevent or pertains to my intelligence or ability to respond to your post.

It happened multiple times as recently as last month. You said this in another thread. $300 or so in the last couple of months not including the initial multiple overdrafts last December. I brought it up to illuminate your hypocrisy. You submit that I am an idiot, but since you are clearly one as well (name notwithstanding) your assertion is dubious. Perhaps I am an idiot, but a statement from an idiot holds no meaning, so only from others who are not so clearly idiots does yours statement hold any.

Argumentum ad hominem. Do you have any arguments that are not fatally fallacious?

Did you get a dictionary of esoteric and annoying terms for your birthday or something? non sequitur, pascal's wager, latin? Come on. I'm off to lunch Fatally fallacious I intend to hang onto that one, though.

Watch out, that sounds a lot like fellatio, which God frowns upon.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
You know nothing of my overdraft incident other than that it happened (once), not sure why you are bringing it up, or how its relevent or pertains to my intelligence or ability to respond to your post.

It happened multiple times as recently as last month. You said this in another thread. $300 or so in the last couple of months not including the initial multiple overdrafts last December. I brought it up to illuminate your hypocrisy. You submit that I am an idiot, but since you are clearly one as well (name notwithstanding) your assertion is dubious. Perhaps I am an idiot, but a statement from an idiot holds no meaning, so only from others who are not so clearly idiots does yours statement hold any.

Argumentum ad hominem. Do you have any arguments that are not fatally fallacious?

Did you get a dictionary of esoteric and annoying terms for your birthday or something? non sequitur, pascal's wager, latin? Come on. I'm off to lunch Fatally fallacious I intend to hang onto that one, though.

Watch out, that sounds a lot like fellatio, which God frowns upon.

Does He now? News to me.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: OCguy
Ruck Feligion.

And then what?

Maybe you should start your own religion. I hear it can be quite a power trip. It could use up that excess roiling energy you seem to have an abundance of.

Yes, maybe I should! I could pass around a basket every weekend, and people will fall over themselves to give me some tax-free money.


And if something about my new religion ever sounds outlandish or fishy, I can just say "You have to have faith."

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Without God you are merely a more evolved version of a bee, so what is important to you is no more relevant than what is important to the bee. 100 years from now you're both dead anyway.

And with god, what happens? You die, go to heaven, only to sit around all day and watch angels play harps? How does god solve the 'meaninglessness of life' problem?

Singing. Lots of singing. And shiny gold. Lots of shiny gold.

40 virgins would keep me entertained for a while I guess.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: shira

Real death in the here and now is something entirely different.

His statement was that Christians were more afraid than anyone else to die. I would say that we are all scared of 'real death' because what comes next is largely uknown. We can't ask the dead and say, "Yo, Bubby, Hows it going?"

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: magomago
Religion is meant as an attempt to answer that which can never be known experimentally. Its a belief in something which you know can never be empircally or theoretically proven.

What can't be known experimentally? Let me guess:

1. Does God exist?
Religion doesn't "explain", it just makes statements: "God exists."


2. Is there a purpose to existence?
Again, religion doesn't explain, it just tells you there's a purpose.


Religions don't explain anything. They are systems of shared fantasies.

Good starting points

3. What existed before the creation of the universe?

4. How does freewill work in a system where God knows all? TAke away the religion and the question can still be asked: "If there is indeed a unifying equation for everything, then do we have free will if theoretically everything can be derived". I thi

Does an explanation have to be something measureable and tested for you? Religion is an attempt to understand/explain that which we cannot answer and will not know the answer. That is why it is faith because it is belief in something entirely unknown.

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: TheSlamma

Originally posted by: Skoorb
For me this is the greatest problem, although I see it no more substantial than wondering why atheists don't all just shoot themselves in the head. If they truly believe what they say, nothing they do matters anyway so I see no reason why they bother. Their life is patently unreconcilable with their claimed beliefs.

If Heaven is so wonderful why are Christians more afraid to die then anyone else on the planet? Could it be deep down they know there isn't one and that it's all BS? I have never seen more people afraid to die then Christians, clinging to life as long as they can just don't want to go down.. Hmmmm

Sounds like you are just making that up and could probably insert any group into there. I would say that there are too many different groups to discuss. Of the specific churches that i pay attention to, they are ecstatic for the end of times. Death isn't the end of life in this world, its the beginning of the eternal and it indicates that time is passing which brings the rapture ever closer.

Sorta. Depends on which Interpretation they adhere to. For many it is only the start of a 1000 Year Reign on Earth. Another Conflict transpires, the Righteous go away to what's termed "a New Heaven and New Earth", the unrighteous Survivors lolligag on a Hell like Earth.

The Rapture is just "Gods'" way to spare the "Righteous" from Its' angry fucking around with Earth and the "unrighteous" left behind.

Sure....I never said many different interpretations exist. I'm just saying, "I don't think Christians are particularly more scared of death than any other group"

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: magomago
Religion is meant as an attempt to answer that which can never be known experimentally. Its a belief in something which you know can never be empircally or theoretically proven. Science is an attempt to answer that which CAN be experimentally tested and theoretically derived

Much like most things in life, it is not as simple as you make it out to be. In theory, postulating about the beginning of all things for fun is fine, much like debating existence while puffing on a nice big blunt. There is a HUGE gap between that and practical religion.

See my post before about mandatory curfews to save me from the vampires.

I still don't see your point on your first comment and how it really responds to my statement. If you are talking about the way religion is practiced, well you won't see me arguing about that. I'm not a huge fan of several ways that religion is practiced even in my own religion. I would personally think that those that actually delve into the texts to read, to understand, and to think would, at the very least, question a lot of the "religion in practice" that they see around them.

I just read your zombie analogy, and I respectfully don't feel it applies. One can go outside at night and test to see if there are vampires. Set up cameras, take a look see.
One can't test, or prove God or the laws of God (I'm coming from a Quranic perspective FYI but I feel its general enough to...generalize ). You can't test to see if God will smite you for breaking a guideline. The Quran emphasizes over and over that people are given respite in this world to do as they want,and in the end they will justly judged else you lose free will because no long is it man's choice to do as they will

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: OCguy
Ruck Feligion.

And then what?

Maybe you should start your own religion. I hear it can be quite a power trip. It could use up that excess roiling energy you seem to have an abundance of.

Yes, maybe I should! I could pass around a basket every weekend, and people will fall over themselves to give me some tax-free money.


And if something about my new religion ever sounds outlandish or fishy, I can just say "You have to have faith."

Believe me. Your non-religious views are fishy enough. No need to start a new religion.

 

[dguy6789]

See sig.

 

[railer]

Originally posted by: Skoorb


Nope, I'm serious. I see no intellectual harmony in a person who is sure that God doesn't exist and yet considers their life worthy of anything at all. It is no more worthy of existence than a rock or cattle--that's what their philosophy says by its very definition, if they are going to take it to its logical progression, which seems reasonable considering they in essence claim to worship logic.

I'm sure this has already been laughed at numerous times in the past couple of days, but I just read it, so forgive me.

So, by believing in some ridiculous superstition, and living your life as a lie based upon those silly stories, a person is somehow more worthy of existence?

You have got to be kidding me....?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: railer

Originally posted by: Skoorb


Nope, I'm serious. I see no intellectual harmony in a person who is sure that God doesn't exist and yet considers their life worthy of anything at all. It is no more worthy of existence than a rock or cattle--that's what their philosophy says by its very definition, if they are going to take it to its logical progression, which seems reasonable considering they in essence claim to worship logic.

I'm sure this has already been laughed at numerous times in the past couple of days, but I just read it, so forgive me.

So, by believing in some ridiculous superstition, and living your life as a lie based upon those silly stories, a person is somehow more worthy of existence?

You have got to be kidding me....?

you added what to this thread??

or are you incapable of voiceing an opinion other than....you have to be kidding me?

Everybody believes in something whether they wish to admit it or not.....notice I used the word "something"....

 

[babylon5]

Originally posted by: railer

Originally posted by: Skoorb


Nope, I'm serious. I see no intellectual harmony in a person who is sure that God doesn't exist and yet considers their life worthy of anything at all. It is no more worthy of existence than a rock or cattle--that's what their philosophy says by its very definition, if they are going to take it to its logical progression, which seems reasonable considering they in essence claim to worship logic.

I'm sure this has already been laughed at numerous times in the past couple of days, but I just read it, so forgive me.

So, by believing in some ridiculous superstition, and living your life as a lie based upon those silly stories, a person is somehow more worthy of existence?

You have got to be kidding me....?

Obviously you haven't seen images of Jesus and Virgin Mary pop up on your potato chips and window dust pattern.

Shame on you.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Without God you are merely a more evolved version of a bee, so what is important to you is no more relevant than what is important to the bee. 100 years from now you're both dead anyway.

And with god, what happens? You die, go to heaven, only to sit around all day and watch angels play harps? How does god solve the 'meaninglessness of life' problem?

Singing. Lots of singing. And shiny gold. Lots of shiny gold.

40 virgins would keep me entertained for a while I guess.

What does this have to do with Christianity? Obviously you are misinformed. No wonder youre a sceptic.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: OCguy
Ruck Feligion.

And then what?

Maybe you should start your own religion. I hear it can be quite a power trip. It could use up that excess roiling energy you seem to have an abundance of.

Yes, maybe I should! I could pass around a basket every weekend, and people will fall over themselves to give me some tax-free money.


And if something about my new religion ever sounds outlandish or fishy, I can just say "You have to have faith."

But you'd have to, at least initially, give people a reason to have faith in your special brand. You could employ some of the methods steve martin used in leap of faith.

I imagine your biggest impediment will not be doubters but other religions trying to discredit you for impinging on their turf.

If scientology qualifies as a religion, I see no reason why you couldn't do it too. What did hubbard have that you don't?

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: railer

Originally posted by: Skoorb


Nope, I'm serious. I see no intellectual harmony in a person who is sure that God doesn't exist and yet considers their life worthy of anything at all. It is no more worthy of existence than a rock or cattle--that's what their philosophy says by its very definition, if they are going to take it to its logical progression, which seems reasonable considering they in essence claim to worship logic.

I'm sure this has already been laughed at numerous times in the past couple of days, but I just read it, so forgive me.

So, by believing in some ridiculous superstition, and living your life as a lie based upon those silly stories, a person is somehow more worthy of existence?

You have got to be kidding me....?

you added what to this thread??

or are you incapable of voiceing an opinion other than....you have to be kidding me?

Everybody believes in something whether they wish to admit it or not.....notice I used the word "something"....

This is where the god (or supernatural/superstitious) believers have it wrong. They desperately want everyone to believe in something at least similar to what they do for validation. Everyone 'believes' in lots of things - most of it non-religious. I believe that tomorrow, the sun will shine if it's not raining. I believe that my neighbor won't drive his car into my house. I believe that my wife didn't have an affair the last time she went on a trip for work. etc. Just because someone removes one of these beliefs doesn't mean that it's automatically replaced by another.

[I don't know how you keep fucking up quotes but oh well. I'll keep fixing them when I can.]

[So, you are the arbiter of worthiness of each post here? How come you haven't banned yourself?]

 

[WHAMPOM]

AH! The eternal question, not to rob, rape and murder your neighbors 'cause your God says so or just 'cause it is your personal choice not to.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
To shira:

A gem manifests as it's facets but is more than the sum of them. The window from which the light of God manifests in in your heart and the heart of every person. But what does it matter if it is you, the window or God that is important if the window is shuttered and allows no light to pass. Perhaps you say that religion is a coping mechanism because you are coping........... with darkness. I believe that truth, the way it is spoken of or pointed to is dependent on the time and place, the condition of the people in which the Knower finds him or her self. I have heard it said that you speak to each according to his understanding.

Perhaps I say religion is a coping mechanism because it's true.

Perhaps you make statements about knowers and God and Sufi "masters" because the prospect of none of these actually existing is a darkness with which YOU cannot cope.

Well there is always those weirdo Zen masters who claim there's not a tile above for their heads or below to step on yet are saying exactly the same thing.

Mulla Nasrudin was walking along with a disciple on day and a dervish came toward them on the path. He pointed to the sky indicating that 'there is one truth and it covers us all'. The student felt a sudden chill at the approach of a mad man but relaxed as the Mulla held up a rope he was carrying replying, 'and ordinary mankind tries to reach that truth by means as ridiculous as trying to climb into the sky on a rope'. Yes, thought the student. If he tries anything we will tie him up.

Thus goes my conversation with you, shira. You have a full tea cup and I can't pour any tea in it. You have your pride that you are courageous in the face meaningless emptiness and that is your reward. Truth is for those who have longing, for the princess who feels the pea of the terrible pain of existence through 39 mattresses. You have your satisfaction. Truth is for the dissatisfied.

But remember there are those who come to truth via total emptiness, folk whose coping mechanisms have been totally ripped away including all forms of pride, folk who can do nothing but fall down and cry.

Hah! You can't pour any tea into my cup because your pot is empty.

You impute ego-based motive to my beliefs ("pride in my own courage in the face of oblivion"), and continually overlook the obvious: I see the universe as empty and without purpose, and I cannot help but believe what I see. I don't believe what I do because I NEED there to be only a void (I would much prefer to believe in a universe with a loving God), but I believe what I do because I have no choice. In fact, I feel sadness, not pride.

You don't know my needs at all, you just assume them because it's a convenient rhetorical device.

Here's a simple question for you, which I'm certain you won't answer: Is it POSSIBLE that there is no God of any sort - either inside, outside, or any other way - and that the universe is without any ultimate purpose?

Time for some more evasion, eh Moonie?

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: shira

Man is interested in God because a purposeless existence, ending in annihilation, is too horrible for most people to contemplate.

The belief in God is a coping mechanism.

Reading the above, I find this ironic:

Originally posted by: shira

The clearest, most convincing argument I can provide you with that your reasoning is totally false is:

I absolutely don't believe in God. I absolutely believe that existence has no "purpose" or "meaning" whatsoever. I absolutely believe that when I die, nothing physical and nothing spiritual will remain of me. Nothing.

Yet I enjoy my life, and want to live as full and enjoyable life as I can.

What possible response can you have to this information, other than to realize that your assumptions are completely incorrect?

Perhaps you'd find the second-quoted post less ironic if you understood that "most people" (used in the first-quoted post) doesn't mean "everyone." I am not "most people." Atheists are a distinct minority.

No, it is all the same b/c you are making assumptions as to why some people believe the way they do, and yet telling someone not to make assumptions about how your belief system should or does impact your life.

And you do make the absolute statement: "The belief in God is a coping mechanism."

Nonsense. I'm not making an assumption at all. I'm just listening to what the believers say. Please, just LISTEN to them. They ask how anyone could bear a universe without God or purpose. Skoorb is so wrapped up in this need that he cannot imagine how anyone who does NOT believe could possibly go on.

When I was a younger man, I NEEDED God to make sense of what I experienced. My suffering just HAD to have some purpose. I wanted to believe that my life was following some pre-determined path that was leading to a better place.

But as I matured, I realized that those thoughts playing in my head were just an extension of the need for Santa Claus. I discarded my fantasies and came to accept that life is what it is and I am very much alone, headed for death an oblivion. Not a happy thought, but liberating.

 

[LunarRay]

Two people about their life come upon a conversation between a rather old guy and a rather young one who, they noticed, had just come out from a nearby house... The conversation sort of went like this... The Young fellow said; "Master, I have been trying to help you locate your keys inside the house in the darkness of the cellar where you said you lost them... but, I find you out here under this street light on your knees looking.... why are you here and not in the cellar?" The old guy looked up... and said to the younger one; "I am looking here, under this light, because here I can see..."

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: shira

Man is interested in God because a purposeless existence, ending in annihilation, is too horrible for most people to contemplate.

The belief in God is a coping mechanism.

Reading the above, I find this ironic:

Originally posted by: shira

The clearest, most convincing argument I can provide you with that your reasoning is totally false is:

I absolutely don't believe in God. I absolutely believe that existence has no "purpose" or "meaning" whatsoever. I absolutely believe that when I die, nothing physical and nothing spiritual will remain of me. Nothing.

Yet I enjoy my life, and want to live as full and enjoyable life as I can.

What possible response can you have to this information, other than to realize that your assumptions are completely incorrect?

Perhaps you'd find the second-quoted post less ironic if you understood that "most people" (used in the first-quoted post) doesn't mean "everyone." I am not "most people." Atheists are a distinct minority.

No, it is all the same b/c you are making assumptions as to why some people believe the way they do, and yet telling someone not to make assumptions about how your belief system should or does impact your life.

And you do make the absolute statement: "The belief in God is a coping mechanism."

Nonsense. I'm not making an assumption at all. I'm just listening to what the believers say. Please, just LISTEN to them. They ask how anyone could bear a universe without God or purpose. Skoorb is so wrapped up in this need that he cannot imagine how anyone who does NOT believe could possibly go on.

When I was a younger man, I NEEDED God to make sense of what I experienced. My suffering just HAD to have some purpose. I wanted to believe that my life was following some pre-determined path that was leading to a better place.

But as I matured, I realized that those thoughts playing in my head were just an extension of the need for Santa Claus. I discarded my fantasies and came to accept that life is what it is and I am very much alone, headed for death an oblivion. Not a happy thought, but liberating.

Strange. You and I have had the opposite experiences in life. What makes your version, right? And no, I havent had a sheltered life.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Two people about their life come upon a conversation between a rather old guy and a rather young one who, they noticed, had just come out from a nearby house... The conversation sort of went like this... The Young fellow said; "Master, I have been trying to help you locate your keys inside the house in the darkness of the cellar where you said you lost them... but, I find you out here under this street light on your knees looking.... why are you here and not in the cellar?" The old guy looked up... and said to the younger one; "I am looking here, under this light, because here I can see..."

Yup, that was Mulla Masrudin on a day when he didn't have a rope and his donkey was lame.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Two people about their life come upon a conversation between a rather old guy and a rather young one who, they noticed, had just come out from a nearby house... The conversation sort of went like this... The Young fellow said; "Master, I have been trying to help you locate your keys inside the house in the darkness of the cellar where you said you lost them... but, I find you out here under this street light on your knees looking.... why are you here and not in the cellar?" The old guy looked up... and said to the younger one; "I am looking here, under this light, because here I can see..."

Yup, that was Mulla Masrudin on a day when he didn't have a rope and his donkey was lame.

I love lingering in the light you two bring. Here, I can see.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: shira

Man is interested in God because a purposeless existence, ending in annihilation, is too horrible for most people to contemplate.

The belief in God is a coping mechanism.

Reading the above, I find this ironic:

Originally posted by: shira

The clearest, most convincing argument I can provide you with that your reasoning is totally false is:

I absolutely don't believe in God. I absolutely believe that existence has no "purpose" or "meaning" whatsoever. I absolutely believe that when I die, nothing physical and nothing spiritual will remain of me. Nothing.

Yet I enjoy my life, and want to live as full and enjoyable life as I can.

What possible response can you have to this information, other than to realize that your assumptions are completely incorrect?

Perhaps you'd find the second-quoted post less ironic if you understood that "most people" (used in the first-quoted post) doesn't mean "everyone." I am not "most people." Atheists are a distinct minority.

No, it is all the same b/c you are making assumptions as to why some people believe the way they do, and yet telling someone not to make assumptions about how your belief system should or does impact your life.

And you do make the absolute statement: "The belief in God is a coping mechanism."

Nonsense. I'm not making an assumption at all. I'm just listening to what the believers say. Please, just LISTEN to them. They ask how anyone could bear a universe without God or purpose. Skoorb is so wrapped up in this need that he cannot imagine how anyone who does NOT believe could possibly go on.

When I was a younger man, I NEEDED God to make sense of what I experienced. My suffering just HAD to have some purpose. I wanted to believe that my life was following some pre-determined path that was leading to a better place.

But as I matured, I realized that those thoughts playing in my head were just an extension of the need for Santa Claus. I discarded my fantasies and came to accept that life is what it is and I am very much alone, headed for death an oblivion. Not a happy thought, but liberating.

Strange. You and I have had the opposite experiences in life. What makes your version, right? And no, I havent had a sheltered life.

You do not say enough to make clear what your version is. What is your opposite experience? I ask our of interest.

 

[JKing106]

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Two people about their life come upon a conversation between a rather old guy and a rather young one who, they noticed, had just come out from a nearby house... The conversation sort of went like this... The Young fellow said; "Master, I have been trying to help you locate your keys inside the house in the darkness of the cellar where you said you lost them... but, I find you out here under this street light on your knees looking.... why are you here and not in the cellar?" The old guy looked up... and said to the younger one; "I am looking here, under this light, because here I can see..."

Yup, that was Mulla Masrudin on a day when he didn't have a rope and his donkey was lame.

Earlier, I wrote a bit about 'Time'... I mentioned a Jury... and left open their decision.

It turned out that jury were Christians who were by profession Scientists... During their discussions on the case of the People v Time they did all manner of calculations and concluded that Time was not an essential factor... there was no proof that time existed... so they found against time on that basis... They used their own deductive process. One that they were confident would lead to the correct verdit... They were confident, therefore, in the verdict they rendered.. At the same time they were equally confident that God existed again using their own deductive process. Different in nature to the issue of Time but giving them the same confidence that God existed...
When asked how on earth can you say God exists? ... You can't point to one single equation or tangible fact or proof... They each responded, in harmony... "You determine the existence of Time and God in the mind but using a different approach... As in all things you must learn the approach before you can accept the proof..."