On Atheism vs. Christianity

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Dissipate


That's quite a fantastic story you told there. :thumbsup: I think I like Lord of the Rings better though.

And where do you think people like Tolkien got a lot of what they write ?


I'll stick with the original sources .

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

For the most part I agree; however, your last few sentances are incorrect, as scripture portrays the fall of man. The earth and all that is in it was handed over to Lucifer. Its already his playground. And your statement about man proving to God that he is worthy is based on deeds based salvation, which goes against almost the entire New Testiment. Remember, God chose us before we chose Him.

That is why I disagree with the translations of the some of the New Testament, and I do not believe in the book of revelations at all. The words of John 3:16 I believe are meant to mean that we are to believe in Christ teachings not the literal belief in Christ himself as the method of salvation. The way it is taught that just believing Christ died for our sins is enough I think is wrong.

I started doubting what was being taught when I was about 11 years old when the preacher was saying that people no matter how good they were , were all going to hell unless someone told them about Christ. That to me just didn't make sense. Would God send a 11 year old like me to hell just because I died before ever knowing anything about him ? What about 7 year olds ? Or people who lived well but alone on a mountain top ? Or would God look at the kind of kid I was and use that as a measure to decide whether I was good or evil ?

Since then I have not accepted the idea that people have to accept Christ , rather that they follow the beliefs that Christ taught that determines their salvation.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: railer
I really don't mean to sound disrespectful, especially towards people like blackangst who are trying to have an adult conversation without adding hehehe's to their comments. But there are some real show stoppers for me when it comes to accepting christianity, or pretty much any other organized religion.

That's the problem though. It isn't an adult conversation. Blackangst is whipping out mythology, and speaking as though it is fact. As much as I have appreciated his comments on investing & finance, his rather childish clinging to ancient fables has significantly reduced my respect for him. And the fact that many others are doing the same as him is simply no excuse. This is especially with all of the scientific and historical perspectives we have today. During the Dark Ages the lower classes were fed all of this stuff with little to no access to counter-reasoning or counter-evidence. Now with access to the Internet, there is 0 excuse for having these primitive beliefs.

Here is one site that destroys Christian and religious dogma:

God Is Imaginary

Video after video drives one nail in the coffin after another.

Edit: Linky to videos

If you watch all of those videos and still can't come to believe that Christianity & religion is false, then I feel sorry for you.

Do you understand these "Here's proof God isnt real" videos and web pages' ideas have been around for......well before you or I were born? I read through briefly about half of the website with a smile...I have worked through these so called "proofs" over a decade ago. You spoke of childish? These ideas are pretty childish themselves You may disagree with my beliefs, that is fine. doesnt bother me at all.

:beer:

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: railer
I really don't mean to sound disrespectful, especially towards people like blackangst who are trying to have an adult conversation without adding hehehe's to their comments. But there are some real show stoppers for me when it comes to accepting christianity, or pretty much any other organized religion.

That's the problem though. It isn't an adult conversation. Blackangst is whipping out mythology, and speaking as though it is fact. As much as I have appreciated his comments on investing & finance, his rather childish clinging to ancient fables has significantly reduced my respect for him. And the fact that many others are doing the same as him is simply no excuse. This is especially with all of the scientific and historical perspectives we have today. During the Dark Ages the lower classes were fed all of this stuff with little to no access to counter-reasoning or counter-evidence. Now with access to the Internet, there is 0 excuse for having these primitive beliefs.

Here is one site that destroys Christian and religious dogma:

God Is Imaginary

Video after video drives one nail in the coffin after another.

Edit: Linky to videos

If you watch all of those videos and still can't come to believe that Christianity & religion is false, then I feel sorry for you.

Do you understand these "Here's proof God isnt real" videos and web pages' ideas have been around for......well before you or I were born? I read through briefly about half of the website with a smile...I have worked through these so called "proofs" over a decade ago. You spoke of childish? These ideas are pretty childish themselves You may disagree with my beliefs, that is fine. doesnt bother me at all.

:beer:

I came to the same conclusion about that website after going through the first 5 proofs. Seems like the author has no real understanding of scripture.

 

[WHAMPOM]

I cannot believe that so many have such blind faith in a book of religious writings collected and edited by a Roman dictator to serve the purpose of empire. Keeping the populous resigned to their place.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
I cannot believe that so many have such blind faith in a book of religious writings collected and edited by a Roman dictator to serve the purpose of empire. Keeping the populous resigned to their place.

Constantine did do that all right.. and in about 312 AD... or some 250 yrs after the books are found or at least determined to have been written... or 230 yrs... but near that.. I think the Council of Nicaea is more informative.. 325 or so..

 

[WHAMPOM]

If we are the creations of God, then we are the children of God and God the parent. What does a good parent want? The children to grow up and be independent of the parent? Does that describe the old testament jealous, spiteful, worship hungry god?

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
I cannot believe that so many have such blind faith in a book of religious writings collected and edited by a Roman dictator to serve the purpose of empire. Keeping the populous resigned to their place.

Constantine did do that all right.. and in about 312 AD... or some 250 yrs after the books are found or at least determined to have been written... or 230 yrs... but near that.. I think the Council of Nicaea is more informative.. 325 or so..

You do know all that "virgin birth" was added by Greek ghost writers to make Jesus fit their mythology?

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
I cannot believe that so many have such blind faith in a book of religious writings collected and edited by a Roman dictator to serve the purpose of empire. Keeping the populous resigned to their place.

Constantine did do that all right.. and in about 312 AD... or some 250 yrs after the books are found or at least determined to have been written... or 230 yrs... but near that.. I think the Council of Nicaea is more informative.. 325 or so..

You do know all that "virgin birth" was added by Greek ghost writers to make Jesus fit their mythology?

Not sure but think Matt and Luke both indicated something about Virgin Birth... but that aside.. the Nicaea thingi was or is to me simply more intrusion on the facts by humans ... well meaning ones, no doubt... trying to interpret what the book writers meant... You'd think God would have enabled clear and unambiguous transcription from mouth to paper...
Jesus is not quoted, to my knowledge, as having uttered "mom was a virgin" or anything at all about Mary except on the cross to John.. but I could be wrong..

IF I remember correctly, didn't the Matt and Luke writings also try to agree with the Prophets about virgin birth...

 

[LunarRay]

What I find most alarming about the books of the bible or New Testament in particular is the notion that we have so much Contemporaneous writings about Socrates who lived what.... 400BC or around that time.. and hardly one bit of fully accepted writings about Jesus who lived 400 years later...
Of course I'd agree that Socrates was a central figure to the reporters but heck they even know that after he drank the poison he had to walk about until his legs were numb... and his contribution to us is not more profound than Jesus is... I think it took a few coins and a tribute stone to actually agree that Pontius Pilate existed was governor and was alive when Jesus was crucified... There are lots of third hand references but nothing one would call proof... and yet... millions have believed he's the Son of God.. millions do and millions more will..

EDIT:... That to me might qualify as a miracle...

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Deeds based faith is pretty empty. Its also not scriptural. Yes, scripture does teach about fruit of a believing life; however, its more in the vein of responsibility. Are there people who do bad things in God's name? Of course. But to judge faith based ont hat is just narrow minded. People, even Christians, are imperfect creatures. Faith based living isnt just about what you do and dont do, but its about grace and forgiveness also.

While I respect your opinion about religion, as I would hope others would respect mine, I would have to disagree with you about deeds being necessary for salvation as unscriptural. James 2:14-26, John 10:37-38, John 14:12, Timothy 4:14, Ephesians 2:10, James 1:25, Revelations 20:12-13, etc. At least that's the way that I interpret it.

Originally posted by: railer
This point has come to my mind before, and is probably one of the biggest reasons that I don't consider myself to be religious at all:

As a christian, how do you resolve the fact that roughly 80% of the current population of the earth is non-christian, and what do you suppose will happen to those people when they die? How about all the folks who lived and died before christianity was invented?

It's questions like this that not only keep me out of church, but make me skeptical of anyone who chooses to attend.

I really don't mean to sound disrespectful, especially towards people like blackangst who are trying to have an adult conversation without adding hehehe's to their comments. But there are some real show stoppers for me when it comes to accepting christianity, or pretty much any other organized religion.

I am Christian and I don't believe a loving and merciful God would condemn people because they never heard the Gospel preached. That would be the ultimate cruelty to send your children to live on Earth to be tried and tested and then condemn them for not being born in the right era or the right part of the world.

My own personal belief is that everyone will have a chance to hear the Gospel. Those who don't get to hear it in this life will get a chance to hear it in the next.

 

[piasabird]

First of all if someone does not believe in God they are not allowed to make any arguments based on what God would do or not do. Otherwise they are admitting they actually might believe in God and are not in fact athiests. i.e. Cirucular logic.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
I cannot believe that so many have such blind faith in a book of religious writings collected and edited by a Roman dictator to serve the purpose of empire. Keeping the populous resigned to their place.

My faith isn't blind. Who are you referring to exactly?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
I cannot believe that so many have such blind faith in a book of religious writings collected and edited by a Roman dictator to serve the purpose of empire. Keeping the populous resigned to their place.

Constantine did do that all right.. and in about 312 AD... or some 250 yrs after the books are found or at least determined to have been written... or 230 yrs... but near that.. I think the Council of Nicaea is more informative.. 325 or so..

You do know all that "virgin birth" was added by Greek ghost writers to make Jesus fit their mythology?

Reading your last few comments...can you share what religion and book you are referring to? Because it isnt Christianity or the bible. Thanks in advance.

 

[piasabird]

"The problem of pain has been written on in volumes which could stack to the moon. What I really want to know about is its philosophical opposite: the problem of pleasure."

Study the concept of good and evil and pain and pleasure. If you go back to Adam and Eve in the biblical text, It was only after Adam and Eve consumed the fruit of knowledge of good and evil did they change their existence where they could experience pain or pleasure. At the same time if they had not consumed the forbidden (Not really) fruit could they obey God's other commandment to be fruitful and replenish the earth.

Such a biblical quandry.

It is better for us to pass through the sorrow and pain so we can know the pleasure and the Joy of our God. You can not have pleasure without pain. They will be as the Gods, knowing both good and evil. Everything has its opposite. For there must be opposition in all things.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Deeds based faith is pretty empty. Its also not scriptural. Yes, scripture does teach about fruit of a believing life; however, its more in the vein of responsibility. Are there people who do bad things in God's name? Of course. But to judge faith based ont hat is just narrow minded. People, even Christians, are imperfect creatures. Faith based living isnt just about what you do and dont do, but its about grace and forgiveness also.

While I respect your opinion about religion, as I would hope others would respect mine, I would have to disagree with you about deeds being necessary for salvation as unscriptural. James 2:14-26, John 10:37-38, John 14:12, Timothy 4:14, Ephesians 2:10, James 1:25, Revelations 20:12-13, etc. At least that's the way that I interpret it.

Originally posted by: railer
This point has come to my mind before, and is probably one of the biggest reasons that I don't consider myself to be religious at all:

As a christian, how do you resolve the fact that roughly 80% of the current population of the earth is non-christian, and what do you suppose will happen to those people when they die? How about all the folks who lived and died before christianity was invented?

It's questions like this that not only keep me out of church, but make me skeptical of anyone who chooses to attend.

I really don't mean to sound disrespectful, especially towards people like blackangst who are trying to have an adult conversation without adding hehehe's to their comments. But there are some real show stoppers for me when it comes to accepting christianity, or pretty much any other organized religion.

I am Christian and I don't believe a loving and merciful God would condemn people because they never heard the Gospel preached. That would be the ultimate cruelty to send your children to live on Earth to be tried and tested and then condemn them for not being born in the right era or the right part of the world.

My own personal belief is that everyone will have a chance to hear the Gospel. Those who don't get to hear it in this life will get a chance to hear it in the next.

Perhaps I either misunderstood your point, or mis stated my response. This post clears it up for me. Let me say in this case I do agree with you. It also brings up the question of those who are of diminished mental capacity. The stillborn. Those who have not reached "age of consent". And others. In this case I take the opinion of A.H. Strong: Since Christ is the Word of God and the Truth of God, he may be received even by those who have not heard of his manifestation in the flesh.... We have, therefore, the hope that even among the heathen there may be some...who under the guidance of the Holy Spirit working through the truth of nature and conscience, have found the way to life and salvation (from his book "Systematic Theology").

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: piasabird
"The problem of pain has been written on in volumes which could stack to the moon. What I really want to know about is its philosophical opposite: the problem of pleasure."

Study the concept of good and evil and pain and pleasure. If you go back to Adam and Eve in the biblical text, It was only after Adam and Eve consumed the fruit of knowledge of good and evil did they change their existence where they could experience pain or pleasure. At the same time if they had not consumed the forbidden (Not really) fruit could they obey God's other commandment to be fruitful and replenish the earth.

Such a biblical quandry.

It is better for us to pass through the sorrow and pain so we can know the pleasure and the Joy of our God. You can not have pleasure without pain. They will be as the Gods, knowing both good and evil. Everything has its opposite. For there must be opposition in all things.

It is somewhat of a quandry that Jerimiah dealt with in Lamentations.

 

[railer]

Originally posted by: Elfear
My own personal belief is that everyone will have a chance to hear the Gospel. Those who don't get to hear it in this life will get a chance to hear it in the next.

OK.....let's take this one step further. You are raised as a non-christain, as roughly 80% of the current population of the earth is. You are given a chance to "hear the gospel", on more than one occasion, just for good measure. You, of course, remain true to the belief system that you were raised in, as I'm sure the overwhelming majority of people do. Are you still damned for all eternity, because you didn't choose to accept christ when given the opportunity?

 

[JSt0rm]

I find the modern human mind much more interesting then some 2000 year old book.

http://vimeo.com/5471619

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: railer
I really don't mean to sound disrespectful, especially towards people like blackangst who are trying to have an adult conversation without adding hehehe's to their comments. But there are some real show stoppers for me when it comes to accepting christianity, or pretty much any other organized religion.

That's the problem though. It isn't an adult conversation. Blackangst is whipping out mythology, and speaking as though it is fact. As much as I have appreciated his comments on investing & finance, his rather childish clinging to ancient fables has significantly reduced my respect for him. And the fact that many others are doing the same as him is simply no excuse. This is especially with all of the scientific and historical perspectives we have today. During the Dark Ages the lower classes were fed all of this stuff with little to no access to counter-reasoning or counter-evidence. Now with access to the Internet, there is 0 excuse for having these primitive beliefs.

Here is one site that destroys Christian and religious dogma:

God Is Imaginary

Video after video drives one nail in the coffin after another.

Edit: Linky to videos

If you watch all of those videos and still can't come to believe that Christianity & religion is false, then I feel sorry for you.

You feel sorry for him but you're probably one of those folk he thinks is going to Hell, so I think he wins. Anyway, you both look to be really religious to me, true believers.

 

[Nemesis 1]

The argument about Mary is a red herring . If Jesus was the Living Word. Than the vessel that brought him into the world had to be pure . Whats hard to understand and except about that. If you except Christ as Christ . Why not accept the puriity of Mary. But don't pray to Mary to GOD! Its not exceptable. By Christ own Words. If Christ is living Word than Praying to any except him as a medium to GOD is Forbidden. NOw that is a bit wierd. WHY? Why pray threw Christ to God. Why not directly to GOD. Why must we pray threw Jesus. TO gain salvaion. Seems to me Christ is taking Glory at defeating the Evil one . But he forgot to take him out of the World . Great Victory. But it hasn't helped us . Look around. THe God that destroyed Bable. and the GOD of Moses don't seem to be the same In thought. They don't seem to be the same enity at all.

The story of Christ is interesting and has altered the world. I except the teachings of Christ as trueth . But I don't believe we have those complete teachings. Than some things don't sound right . Like praying threw Christ To God. That sounds like religion to me. I don't think Christ was about religion. Christ was asked its in gosphels. How to pray to GOD. Christ replied By giving the prayer of OUR FATHER!!!!!. But latter it seems we pray to Christ. I see conflict.

Many believe that the Son of Ceasar and Cleopatra was the Christ . its interesting story and the part about Satan offerring Christ the Worldly throne . The Throne of Rome. Kind would only fit the heir of Ceasar.

Than Back to the 1st council . The bishop of Rome never attended . The format and forum of the church was setup without his blessings. In them Times Only the Bishop of Rome had that power In CHRIST CHURCH.

To believe That a Ceasar of Rome would do anything to benefit mankind is the height of stupidity. The HRCC claims to have the fishermans ring. If they do they cut it off Peters finger when they crucified him upside down . THe pope wares a ring with a ruby in it the size of which for a man of God to have is a sin. The Ring could feed alot of hungry. But know they bury each fishermans ring with the Pope who wore it. They never had the ring . They will never have the ring. because it never existed. It was worldly to have such things among the poor . Ever notice the religions need $$$$. But a Church does not . Funny that . Know what a Church is.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: shira
When I was a younger man, I NEEDED God to make sense of what I experienced. My suffering just HAD to have some purpose. I wanted to believe that my life was following some pre-determined path that was leading to a better place.

But as I matured, I realized that those thoughts playing in my head were just an extension of the need for Santa Claus. I discarded my fantasies and came to accept that life is what it is and I am very much alone, headed for death an oblivion. Not a happy thought, but liberating.

Strange. You and I have had the opposite experiences in life. What makes your version, right? And no, I havent had a sheltered life.

If there is no objective evidence for unicorns, I conclude that there probably are no unicorns.

If there is no objective evidence for Santa Claus, I conclude that there probably is no Santa Claus.

If there is no objective evidence for an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, infinite superbeing, I conclude that there probably is no such thing.

You, on the other hand, based on exactly nothing but your own imagination conclude that God exists.

I don't see any parity at all in our two positions.

 

[Nemesis 1]

The GOD of Moses was a Jelious GOD who command NO gods shall come befor me . Yet Jesus commands we pray to him rather than God . Yet it was Christ who gave us the Our Father. The Our Father Holds with the teachings and laws of Moses. Were as Praying to Christ threw Christ to GOD is a little suspect here.

The way the HRCC explains this away is the trinity. They use the part of the Bible that says that In the Beginning the Word was with God and In God. So to make praying to Christ exceptable they had to make him GOD . By saying he is the word of God which was with God in the Beginning. So If Christ is the word of God he there for is the Son of GOD.

You show me anywere in old testement God said he was coming in the Flesh . Never happened . He only promised the Messiah or Living Word. Which taught us how to live in order to achieve higher level of consiousness(Enlightenment) The part about Him coming back again . Again its A bit confusing . He said another follows me who leads all nations with a rod of Iron. Was Christ talking about himself returning . Or was Christ what he said he was the fulfillment of Gods promise to the Jews? I think he was Gods covenant fullfilled with the jews. Thats the end of it . But why the second coming? Or are there 2 differant promises. Look deeper into old writtings that didn't make the big book.

God did promise to restore ADAM to Eden in 5,500 years after he died. So is the Man who rules with a rod of iron the Christ of the Jews and Gentials. Or was his task completed? Fuulfillment of the covenant that christians except and jews reject. Or is it another as one would assume because Christ says another or did GOD misspeak?

It profoundly plane that 2 seperate Promises were Made . One to the Jews AND one to AdaM(MAN). Christ fulfilled the Second one by bring the gentials into the family of God .

So when Man enlightened appears(ADAM) exspect much change and blood shed . That Rod of Iron is nothing to take lightly.

God of Bable not same God of Moses . CONFLICT,

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: railer


So....god does not judge on deeds? What does he judge on then? Is it OK to rob, steal, and molest little kids, as long as you go to church on sunday, and truly believe?

Because if that's the case, I'll take the oblivion option as well.

I'm not trying to mock your beliefs, but is it better to be a rotten person and a true believer, than a good person who isn't a christian?

My belief is that he does judge on deeds and the way you live your life. I think God wants us to become more than what we are. To evolve to the point that we are as close to Christ like as possible. If he is our creator then he wants for us to make the most of what we are.

I truly believe that God created life on this planet, although I think it was a ton more technological in nature than what the bible suggest as being supernatural. The story of genesis makes a lot of sense. A supreme being creates life on a planet. He tells his servants (Angels) that they will become #3 in importance and that humans will become #2. Some of the angels are pissed at the concept that humans would be placed above them who have served for so long. They(Lucifer) rebels and to prove that humans are not worthy shows how easy they are corrupted (Eve+Apple). God becomes enraged and banishes Lucifer and any angels that side with him. Now the two are at odds. God could aid man, prevent death, give everyone a blissful life, but that would prove nothing. Instead it is up to man to prove that he is worthy, if he can't then Lucifer wins and would inherit the earth.

God becomes enraged? As a result of what Satan did?

Do you even consider the inconsistencies of what you spout? God is omniscient, right? So ANYTHING done by ANYONE, including Satan, was foreseen by God before it happened, before even God set the universe in motion.

But you have God being affected by external events. How could an omnipotent God possibly be affected by the actions of another?

You also have the absurdity of Satan trying to prove something to an omniscient being. Presumably, Satan knows that God is omniscient. And knowing that, Satan is going to change God's mind? Prove to God that God was wrong in putting humans #2?

Wow. It must take a lot of effort to swallow this pile of B.S.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Why is everone assuming the gods we know about are gods at all. Makes much more sense that they were flesh as we are flesh. I mean the angels (soldiers) god(Admiral) had sexual relationships with earthly flesh women according to scripture, So they were of Flesh and spitit. The way I read history this is far far more likely. But that doesn't mean there isn't an omnipresent or omnipotenant GOD.

One more thing Lilith . All religions say bad of her. But lets get something straight. Lilith rejected adam because she seen fault in him by not seeing her as equal . Lilith was taken upto heaven after saying the magic words. She did petition God . and God did find her true. So Lilith didn't have to go back to Adam . Than Eve was created from adam.

EVE Gave to Adam that which God commanded Adam not partake Adam did .

Lilith Accused Adam of wanting to be Higher.


God did test Liliths complaint against adam . By creating eve from Adams own flesh God could test If Adam was Enlightened. By giving him a command of obediance God did give a tool to satan to destroy man . Satan offerred Eve what Adam wanted over Litith, Power. Than Adam did also partake and he did desire to be like GOD> So God knew that Lilith words were true . Who is the Bride Christ talks about so much . Only man is being reborn . All of this to learn humility.

Look at Man religion most believe Litith is satan or his mother LOL. Adam blew it . Eve blew it . Lilith Is still waiting for A GOOD MAN> Enlightenment.