On Atheism vs. Christianity

[LunarRay]

Shira,
To be a Christian you have to accept the bible as being the word of God. Believing that no part of it can be shown to be untrue. That means the entire bit. It is that simple... I'd doubt any Christian or anyone who believed in God would last long in Carl Sagan's Critical Thinking Class... Nor would most anything contained in the bible be allowed entered as evidence in a court of law to prove anything also contained in the bible. So what have we left... :
A gazillion folks who nonetheless have accepted that God is God and exists. Somewhat less accept that Jesus is the Son of God and God as well.. and so on..
Now how can they accept that in the face of logic and critical thinking procedures and all that... how can they? But they do.
Regarding Jesus, I've no idea what he did until he started his mission at around 30 yrs old... Old enough for family and friends to know him as the carpenter's son and little else. Then off he goes indicating eventually that he is God.. "the Father and I are one"... His Apostles have more recorded reference to them than there are to him. There is no reference to Jesus directly in any of Rome's texts but they do reference him via third party notation. There is a whole host of issues one can raise to advocate against his person and mission on Earth... But, yet he has transcended the entirety of it all.. That in and of itself is beyond belief. How can folks raise their hand and say they Accept Jesus as lord and Savior. It makes no sense on the face of it... and that is where you are looking.

Something else happens to the individual, however, when they do proclaim that oath... They somehow are transformed into someone else... not physically but where it counts... they are different. I know that bit is hard to accept unless you've experienced it... Me thinks the millions who do accept Jesus can't really put to words just what happens to them and I suspect to each it is different in some way or another... but it does occur. Then for them to try they refer to the only viable source they have, the Bible and critics logically tear that and them apart.. they scoff and issue all manner of retort and condimnation... but proudly they stand... and reaffirm their oath... How hard is that to do... Takes a strength of character most would not match.

So at the end of the day, I understand the view from outside but also the strength from within... I can even joke or (hehehehehe) and not care cuz I am that I am. As you are as you are...

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Shira,
To be a Christian you have to accept the bible as being the word of God. Believing that no part of it can be shown to be untrue. That means the entire bit. It is that simple... I'd doubt any Christian or anyone who believed in God would last long in Carl Sagan's Critical Thinking Class... Nor would most anything contained in the bible be allowed entered as evidence in a court of law to prove anything also contained in the bible. So what have we left... :
A gazillion folks who nonetheless have accepted that God is God and exists. Somewhat less accept that Jesus is the Son of God and God as well.. and so on..
Now how can they accept that in the face of logic and critical thinking procedures and all that... how can they? But they do.
Regarding Jesus, I've no idea what he did until he started his mission at around 30 yrs old... Old enough for family and friends to know him as the carpenter's son and little else. Then off he goes indicating eventually that he is God.. "the Father and I are one"... His Apostles have more recorded reference to them than there are to him. There is no reference to Jesus directly in any of Rome's texts but they do reference him via third party notation. There is a whole host of issues one can raise to advocate against his person and mission on Earth... But, yet he has transcended the entirety of it all.. That in and of itself is beyond belief. How can folks raise their hand and say they Accept Jesus as lord and Savior. It makes no sense on the face of it... and that is where you are looking.

Something else happens to the individual, however, when they do proclaim that oath... They somehow are transformed into someone else... not physically but where it counts... they are different. I know that bit is hard to accept unless you've experienced it... Me thinks the millions who do accept Jesus can't really put to words just what happens to them and I suspect to each it is different in some way or another... but it does occur. Then for them to try they refer to the only viable source they have, the Bible and critics logically tear that and them apart.. they scoff and issue all manner of retort and condimnation... but proudly they stand... and reaffirm their oath... How hard is that to do... Takes a strength of character most would not match.

So at the end of the day, I understand the view from outside but also the strength from within... I can even joke or (hehehehehe) and not care cuz I am that I am. As you are as you are...

NO he does not stop with religious bullshit. Lies of the HRCC. Christ was a living being The Bible is writings gathered with many laws added. Religion the Bible as we Know it is not complete . Were are the 12 Gosphels . Why are the four Gosphels so Short . Yet the writings of PAUL self aclaimed apostle announted by the Holy Spirit, A High citizen of Rome a Roman . Who wrote more in the new testament than anyother . Yet he never meet or new Christ . How is it that Paul came to God threw the Spirit . When Christ proclaims none come to the Father except threw Me . Why did Paul create so many Dogma(CanonLaw) When Christ said not to . Christ completed his mission . We know what that was . He said it plaily . Were as PAUL is utterly confussing and usines strawman arguements . Favoring the powerful and wealthy

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: shira
When I was a younger man, I NEEDED God to make sense of what I experienced. My suffering just HAD to have some purpose. I wanted to believe that my life was following some pre-determined path that was leading to a better place.

But as I matured, I realized that those thoughts playing in my head were just an extension of the need for Santa Claus. I discarded my fantasies and came to accept that life is what it is and I am very much alone, headed for death an oblivion. Not a happy thought, but liberating.

Strange. You and I have had the opposite experiences in life. What makes your version, right? And no, I havent had a sheltered life.

If there is no objective evidence for unicorns, I conclude that there probably are no unicorns.

If there is no objective evidence for Santa Claus, I conclude that there probably is no Santa Claus.

If there is no objective evidence for an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, infinite superbeing, I conclude that there probably is no such thing.

You, on the other hand, based on exactly nothing but your own imagination conclude that God exists.

I don't see any parity at all in our two positions.

Thats fine We all have our own beliefs. No worries. You know as much about me as I do you.

You, on the other hand, based on exactly nothing but your own imagination conclude that God exists.

You really dont have a clue how I came to believe what I believe so I dismiss this comment as passing nativity. But I can tell you it is based on MUCH more than imagination. No offense taken. We dont know about each other's experiences and what has led us to our own conclusions and belief systems, and we both think the other is wrong. Nothing wrong with that

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1


You show me anywere in old testement God said he was coming in the Flesh . Never happened . He only promised the Messiah or Living Word.

How you can separate the two is beyond me. Isaiah 7:14. Isaiah 9:6. Zechariah 9:9. The entire 53rd chanpter of Isaiah. Zechariah 12:10. There are actually over 3000 references to Christ's coming int he OT.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: railer


So....god does not judge on deeds? What does he judge on then? Is it OK to rob, steal, and molest little kids, as long as you go to church on sunday, and truly believe?

Because if that's the case, I'll take the oblivion option as well.

I'm not trying to mock your beliefs, but is it better to be a rotten person and a true believer, than a good person who isn't a christian?

My belief is that he does judge on deeds and the way you live your life. I think God wants us to become more than what we are. To evolve to the point that we are as close to Christ like as possible. If he is our creator then he wants for us to make the most of what we are.

I truly believe that God created life on this planet, although I think it was a ton more technological in nature than what the bible suggest as being supernatural. The story of genesis makes a lot of sense. A supreme being creates life on a planet. He tells his servants (Angels) that they will become #3 in importance and that humans will become #2. Some of the angels are pissed at the concept that humans would be placed above them who have served for so long. They(Lucifer) rebels and to prove that humans are not worthy shows how easy they are corrupted (Eve+Apple). God becomes enraged and banishes Lucifer and any angels that side with him. Now the two are at odds. God could aid man, prevent death, give everyone a blissful life, but that would prove nothing. Instead it is up to man to prove that he is worthy, if he can't then Lucifer wins and would inherit the earth.

God becomes enraged? As a result of what Satan did?

Do you even consider the inconsistencies of what you spout? God is omniscient, right? So ANYTHING done by ANYONE, including Satan, was foreseen by God before it happened, before even God set the universe in motion.

But you have God being affected by external events. How could an omnipotent God possibly be affected by the actions of another?

You also have the absurdity of Satan trying to prove something to an omniscient being. Presumably, Satan knows that God is omniscient. And knowing that, Satan is going to change God's mind? Prove to God that God was wrong in putting humans #2?

Wow. It must take a lot of effort to swallow this pile of B.S.

You bring up the subject of choice vs. predestination which is a study far too in depth to take place on a political board. But if youre interested how the two intertwine, there ARE many studies done on this.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
The argument about Mary is a red herring . If Jesus was the Living Word. Than the vessel that brought him into the world had to be pure . Whats hard to understand and except about that. If you except Christ as Christ . Why not accept the puriity of Mary. But don't pray to Mary to GOD! Its not exceptable. By Christ own Words. If Christ is living Word than Praying to any except him as a medium to GOD is Forbidden. NOw that is a bit wierd. WHY? Why pray threw Christ to God. Why not directly to GOD. Why must we pray threw Jesus. TO gain salvaion. Seems to me Christ is taking Glory at defeating the Evil one . But he forgot to take him out of the World . Great Victory. But it hasn't helped us . Look around. THe God that destroyed Bable. and the GOD of Moses don't seem to be the same In thought. They don't seem to be the same enity at all.

The story of Christ is interesting and has altered the world. I except the teachings of Christ as trueth . But I don't believe we have those complete teachings. Than some things don't sound right . Like praying threw Christ To God. That sounds like religion to me. I don't think Christ was about religion. Christ was asked its in gosphels. How to pray to GOD. Christ replied By giving the prayer of OUR FATHER!!!!!. But latter it seems we pray to Christ. I see conflict.

Many believe that the Son of Ceasar and Cleopatra was the Christ . its interesting story and the part about Satan offerring Christ the Worldly throne . The Throne of Rome. Kind would only fit the heir of Ceasar.

Than Back to the 1st council . The bishop of Rome never attended . The format and forum of the church was setup without his blessings. In them Times Only the Bishop of Rome had that power In CHRIST CHURCH.

To believe That a Ceasar of Rome would do anything to benefit mankind is the height of stupidity. The HRCC claims to have the fishermans ring. If they do they cut it off Peters finger when they crucified him upside down . THe pope wares a ring with a ruby in it the size of which for a man of God to have is a sin. The Ring could feed alot of hungry. But know they bury each fishermans ring with the Pope who wore it. They never had the ring . They will never have the ring. because it never existed. It was worldly to have such things among the poor . Ever notice the religions need $$$$. But a Church does not . Funny that . Know what a Church is.

All a Church does is pimp God. Sells the services of God and collect the money. PIMP!

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: shira


Do you even consider the inconsistencies of what you spout? God is omniscient, right? So ANYTHING done by ANYONE, including Satan, was foreseen by God before it happened, before even God set the universe in motion.

No he never claims to be. Man gave him that title. God is not omniscient and proves that several times in the bible itself. God creates Adam who is then corrupted by Eve, yet he asks Adam and Eve where they are in the garden and why they hide from him . In the story of Noah God floods the earth because man has become too corrupt, why even let them be born and live if he already knew the ending ? In the story of Moses he first tells Moses that he can reach the promised land, but then after Moses transgresses he is forbidden to enter that land.

All these things and more prove that if God knew all these things in advance he would not allow them to occur the first time.

Wow. It must take a lot of effort to swallow this pile of B.S.

[/quote]


Not at all. It takes a lot more effort to talk to people with such closed minds that their way can be the only way things exist.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: railer


So....god does not judge on deeds? What does he judge on then? Is it OK to rob, steal, and molest little kids, as long as you go to church on sunday, and truly believe?

Because if that's the case, I'll take the oblivion option as well.

I'm not trying to mock your beliefs, but is it better to be a rotten person and a true believer, than a good person who isn't a christian?

My belief is that he does judge on deeds and the way you live your life. I think God wants us to become more than what we are. To evolve to the point that we are as close to Christ like as possible. If he is our creator then he wants for us to make the most of what we are.

I truly believe that God created life on this planet, although I think it was a ton more technological in nature than what the bible suggest as being supernatural. The story of genesis makes a lot of sense. A supreme being creates life on a planet. He tells his servants (Angels) that they will become #3 in importance and that humans will become #2. Some of the angels are pissed at the concept that humans would be placed above them who have served for so long. They(Lucifer) rebels and to prove that humans are not worthy shows how easy they are corrupted (Eve+Apple). God becomes enraged and banishes Lucifer and any angels that side with him. Now the two are at odds. God could aid man, prevent death, give everyone a blissful life, but that would prove nothing. Instead it is up to man to prove that he is worthy, if he can't then Lucifer wins and would inherit the earth.

God becomes enraged? As a result of what Satan did?

Do you even consider the inconsistencies of what you spout? God is omniscient, right? So ANYTHING done by ANYONE, including Satan, was foreseen by God before it happened, before even God set the universe in motion.

But you have God being affected by external events. How could an omnipotent God possibly be affected by the actions of another?

You also have the absurdity of Satan trying to prove something to an omniscient being. Presumably, Satan knows that God is omniscient. And knowing that, Satan is going to change God's mind? Prove to God that God was wrong in putting humans #2?

Wow. It must take a lot of effort to swallow this pile of B.S.

You bring up the subject of choice vs. predestination which is a study far too in depth to take place on a political board. But if youre interested how the two intertwine, there ARE many studies done on this.

I have always found that those who try to argue matters of religion with reason do so with a particular technique. They reason in such a complicated manner as to get lost in the clouds; they create an argument so complex and intricate that Einstein can't follow it and then they pretend they've won. But simple minded folk like me are stubborn. You can spin any airy fairy argument you like but you will never convince me that I have free will if God already knows, even predetermined, who I will be. Talk about a meaningless existence.

No, But if God is Being then the only place he exists in in the now and in the now there is no time. You can't be anywhere else but now it seems to me. To become conscious of the now is to enter into it with being. To surrender the past and the future by dying to thought is to surrender to God's will and to become it. God is being and so are you if you ARE. Of course this is just words for things that are wordless and just more intellectual bs.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
What I find most alarming about the books of the bible or New Testament in particular is the notion that we have so much Contemporaneous writings about Socrates who lived what.... 400BC or around that time.. and hardly one bit of fully accepted writings about Jesus who lived

That is why I do not just read the bible to get the full story. I read everything from the time regardless of what/if religion it belongs too. A lot of information can be gained by reading other historical documents of the time.

I think one of the reasons we have more from the Greeks is that they were very literate for the time. They kept very detailed records and were centered in a central area. Where as the Israelite moved around quite a bit making things like record keeping and written works much harder to maintain. The other thing is the burning of text by the Romans. They were notorious for burning text of any religion except their own.

I have no doubt Jesus existed. There are too many things that would have to be coincidence for it not to be so. The grave of Joseph has been found proving that the family did exist. Other religions mention him as not the son of God but a teacher or prophet. The timing of the crucification and the governor that was in charge it all lines up.

 

[Moonbeam]

But shira, I answered your questions and you didn't yet answer mine so let me ask again:

s: Hah! You can't pour any tea into my cup because your pot is empty.

M: Yup, completely full of no-tea.

s: You impute ego-based motive to my beliefs ("pride in my own courage in the face of oblivion"), and continually overlook the obvious: I see the universe as empty and without purpose, and I cannot help but believe what I see. I don't believe what I do because I NEED there to be only a void (I would much prefer to believe in a universe with a loving God), but I believe what I do because I have no choice. In fact, I feel sadness, not pride.

M: Ah, just like me. But do you ever wonder why you argue your case? Why would we want to preach that kind of bad news? (Maybe announce would have been better than preach

s: You don't know my needs at all, you just assume them because it's a convenient rhetorical device.

M: How could your needs be any different than mine, not, of course that I know what mine are? Just a minor question not too important

s: Here's a simple question for you, which I'm certain you won't answer: Is it POSSIBLE that there is no God of any sort - either inside, outside, or any other way - and that the universe is without any ultimate purpose?

M: If you look back through the thread I think you will see that that is almost exactly what I believe.

s: Time for some more evasion, eh Moonie?

M: No just more questions:

You said in another post:

"When I was a younger man, I NEEDED God to make sense of what I experienced. My suffering just HAD to have some purpose. I wanted to believe that my life was following some pre-determined path that was leading to a better place."

Did you ever determine why? This is what I want to know. What was the need. That is my real question

"But as I matured, I realized that those thoughts playing in my head were just an extension of the need for Santa Claus. I discarded my fantasies and came to accept that life is what it is and I am very much alone, headed for death an oblivion. Not a happy thought, but liberating."

From what were you liberated? I ask because presumably it has to do with that need I want to know about.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: railer


So....god does not judge on deeds? What does he judge on then? Is it OK to rob, steal, and molest little kids, as long as you go to church on sunday, and truly believe?

Because if that's the case, I'll take the oblivion option as well.

I'm not trying to mock your beliefs, but is it better to be a rotten person and a true believer, than a good person who isn't a christian?

My belief is that he does judge on deeds and the way you live your life. I think God wants us to become more than what we are. To evolve to the point that we are as close to Christ like as possible. If he is our creator then he wants for us to make the most of what we are.

I truly believe that God created life on this planet, although I think it was a ton more technological in nature than what the bible suggest as being supernatural. The story of genesis makes a lot of sense. A supreme being creates life on a planet. He tells his servants (Angels) that they will become #3 in importance and that humans will become #2. Some of the angels are pissed at the concept that humans would be placed above them who have served for so long. They(Lucifer) rebels and to prove that humans are not worthy shows how easy they are corrupted (Eve+Apple). God becomes enraged and banishes Lucifer and any angels that side with him. Now the two are at odds. God could aid man, prevent death, give everyone a blissful life, but that would prove nothing. Instead it is up to man to prove that he is worthy, if he can't then Lucifer wins and would inherit the earth.

God becomes enraged? As a result of what Satan did?

Do you even consider the inconsistencies of what you spout? God is omniscient, right? So ANYTHING done by ANYONE, including Satan, was foreseen by God before it happened, before even God set the universe in motion.

But you have God being affected by external events. How could an omnipotent God possibly be affected by the actions of another?

You also have the absurdity of Satan trying to prove something to an omniscient being. Presumably, Satan knows that God is omniscient. And knowing that, Satan is going to change God's mind? Prove to God that God was wrong in putting humans #2?

Wow. It must take a lot of effort to swallow this pile of B.S.

You bring up the subject of choice vs. predestination which is a study far too in depth to take place on a political board. But if youre interested how the two intertwine, there ARE many studies done on this.

I have always found that those who try to argue matters of religion with reason do so with a particular technique. They reason in such a complicated manner as to get lost in the clouds; they create an argument so complex and intricate that Einstein can't follow it and then they pretend they've won. But simple minded folk like me are stubborn. You can spin any airy fairy argument you like but you will never convince me that I have free will if God already knows, even predetermined, who I will be. Talk about a meaningless existence.

No, But if God is Being then the only place he exists in in the now and in the now there is no time. You can't be anywhere else but now it seems to me. To become conscious of the now is to enter into it with being. To surrender the past and the future by dying to thought is to surrender to God's will and to become it. God is being and so are you if you ARE. Of course this is just words for things that are wordless and just more intellectual bs.

They reason in such a complicated manner as to get lost in the clouds; they create an argument so complex and intricate that Einstein can't follow it and then they pretend they've won.

Your simpleton mask doesnt fly with me Moonie. I hope you arent claiming that I am claiming "victory" here....there is no victory to be had. Its a discussion of differing beliefs. Some things REQUIRE a complicated conversation. It would be the same if you asked me how does BGP work. Or classless inter-domain routing. Or cryptography. Its a complicated answer and one that would probably go over your head. It doesnt mean I think I know more (or are more enlightened) than you, because we all have our strengths. Im sure there are things you would talk me into stupidity with.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: railer


So....god does not judge on deeds? What does he judge on then? Is it OK to rob, steal, and molest little kids, as long as you go to church on sunday, and truly believe?

Because if that's the case, I'll take the oblivion option as well.

I'm not trying to mock your beliefs, but is it better to be a rotten person and a true believer, than a good person who isn't a christian?

My belief is that he does judge on deeds and the way you live your life. I think God wants us to become more than what we are. To evolve to the point that we are as close to Christ like as possible. If he is our creator then he wants for us to make the most of what we are.

I truly believe that God created life on this planet, although I think it was a ton more technological in nature than what the bible suggest as being supernatural. The story of genesis makes a lot of sense. A supreme being creates life on a planet. He tells his servants (Angels) that they will become #3 in importance and that humans will become #2. Some of the angels are pissed at the concept that humans would be placed above them who have served for so long. They(Lucifer) rebels and to prove that humans are not worthy shows how easy they are corrupted (Eve+Apple). God becomes enraged and banishes Lucifer and any angels that side with him. Now the two are at odds. God could aid man, prevent death, give everyone a blissful life, but that would prove nothing. Instead it is up to man to prove that he is worthy, if he can't then Lucifer wins and would inherit the earth.

God becomes enraged? As a result of what Satan did?

Do you even consider the inconsistencies of what you spout? God is omniscient, right? So ANYTHING done by ANYONE, including Satan, was foreseen by God before it happened, before even God set the universe in motion.

But you have God being affected by external events. How could an omnipotent God possibly be affected by the actions of another?

You also have the absurdity of Satan trying to prove something to an omniscient being. Presumably, Satan knows that God is omniscient. And knowing that, Satan is going to change God's mind? Prove to God that God was wrong in putting humans #2?

Wow. It must take a lot of effort to swallow this pile of B.S.

You bring up the subject of choice vs. predestination which is a study far too in depth to take place on a political board. But if youre interested how the two intertwine, there ARE many studies done on this.

Oh, I'm sure there are. When your belief system is a house of cards - when the premises and results just don't jibe - believers MUST come up with an explanation that puts it all right.

Notice that the outcome of these so-called studies is pre-determined: They're not open-minded, anything-goes explorations that could lead to a negative conclusion.

It takes a great deal of effort and self-delusion to reconcile the irreconcilable.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Shira,
To be a Christian you have to accept the bible as being the word of God. Believing that no part of it can be shown to be untrue. That means the entire bit. It is that simple... I'd doubt any Christian or anyone who believed in God would last long in Carl Sagan's Critical Thinking Class... Nor would most anything contained in the bible be allowed entered as evidence in a court of law to prove anything also contained in the bible. So what have we left... :
A gazillion folks who nonetheless have accepted that God is God and exists. Somewhat less accept that Jesus is the Son of God and God as well.. and so on..
Now how can they accept that in the face of logic and critical thinking procedures and all that... how can they? But they do.
Regarding Jesus, I've no idea what he did until he started his mission at around 30 yrs old... Old enough for family and friends to know him as the carpenter's son and little else. Then off he goes indicating eventually that he is God.. "the Father and I are one"... His Apostles have more recorded reference to them than there are to him. There is no reference to Jesus directly in any of Rome's texts but they do reference him via third party notation. There is a whole host of issues one can raise to advocate against his person and mission on Earth... But, yet he has transcended the entirety of it all.. That in and of itself is beyond belief. How can folks raise their hand and say they Accept Jesus as lord and Savior. It makes no sense on the face of it... and that is where you are looking.

Something else happens to the individual, however, when they do proclaim that oath... They somehow are transformed into someone else... not physically but where it counts... they are different. I know that bit is hard to accept unless you've experienced it... Me thinks the millions who do accept Jesus can't really put to words just what happens to them and I suspect to each it is different in some way or another... but it does occur. Then for them to try they refer to the only viable source they have, the Bible and critics logically tear that and them apart.. they scoff and issue all manner of retort and condimnation... but proudly they stand... and reaffirm their oath... How hard is that to do... Takes a strength of character most would not match.

So at the end of the day, I understand the view from outside but also the strength from within... I can even joke or (hehehehehe) and not care cuz I am that I am. As you are as you are...

I always look for some rational way to explain what looks to be beyond belief. It is just how I am, I guess. So this is where my imagination carries me.

1. I have heard it said by those who claim there is a special knowledge, a secret deeply hidden, that those who are awakened to it, like those who are awake generally speaking, know and recognize each other whereas those who sleep know nothing.

2. I have heard that the value of a man is to be found in his ideals. The notion that there exists a God of Love strikes me as one of the highest ideals imaginable.

3. I have a sense that religious ideals go hand and hand with empathy and good will to man in general, so that those who are awake may care for the salvation of humanity.

4. I believe also that the Jews brought the law of God and then got stuck believing that all one had to do was obey the law to be saved, when being saved is about becoming God conscious not obedient to externals. Also self hate, the devil himself, used the law to punish and extract hate and revenge, just as we see today with those focused on punishing the evil. They want to fancy themselves good and saved.

5. So maybe these wise men numbering many more than three knowing themselves and their sleeping fellows proposed to work for man's spiritual evolution over a very long period of time. First they would bring the law and then forgiveness for sin and then the reconciliation of the two and the final monotheistic religion and they themselves, as they always are, would stay hidden working behind the scenes.

 

[Brigandier]

What was the original sin again?

 

[Moonbeam]

b: "Your simpleton mask doesnt fly with me Moonie. I hope you arent claiming that I am claiming "victory" here....there is no victory to be had. Its a discussion of differing beliefs. Some things REQUIRE a complicated conversation. It would be the same if you asked me how does BGP work. Or classless inter-domain routing. Or cryptography. Its a complicated answer and one that would probably go over your head. It doesnt mean I think I know more (or are more enlightened) than you, because we all have our strengths. Im sure there are things you would talk me into stupidity with."

All I am really claiming is that I am as unimpressed with logical arguments that explain what make no logical sense to me. I dismiss them unread and out of hand. I'm just like shira with the possible difference that I don't see what you believe as bs. It is just bs to me. I am not only glad you believe it, I am glad you can, because I believe that the God you believe in is, beyond what I consider to be all the tons of cabbage you attach to his being, again is none the less real, but not in any way that you believe him to be real, sadly for me.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Brigandier
What was the original sin again?

It was to eat from the tree of knowledge, to use language and to name. Before language humanity was right brained and the boundary between self and the universe did not exist. With the advent of language man created the notion of good and evil, things that do not exist and named himself evil. Thus did man learn to put himself down and internalize self hate. He became a separate lonely mortal creature who suffers with guild and sin, all total delusions.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: shira

Oh, I'm sure there are. When your belief system is a house of cards - when the premises and results just don't jibe - believers MUST come up with an explanation that puts it all right.

Notice that the outcome of these so-called studies is pre-determined: They're not open-minded, anything-goes explorations that could lead to a negative conclusion.

It takes a great deal of effort and self-delusion to reconcile the irreconcilable.

Yep kind of like global warming. Many closed ,minded studies are done right? Because you must come to the conclusion you want. :roll:

You comment on what you call "so-called studies" yet I am willing to bet you've never looked into it. Maybe you Googled and read a few paragraphs?

Look man I understand you dont believe and thats your choice. But when you start saying you know the outcomes of biblical and historical studies, when you havent a clue, you lose credibility. Perhaps I lose credibility because I believe differently than you...maybe you are that disrespectful. Thats fine also. Doesnt bother me. But dont spout information of which you dont know.

 

[Brigandier]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Brigandier
What was the original sin again?

It was to eat from the tree of knowledge, to use language and to name. Before language humanity was right brained and the boundary between self and the universe did not exist. With the advent of language man created the notion of good and evil, things that do not exist and named himself evil. Thus did man learn to put himself down and internalize self hate. He became a separate lonely mortal creature who suffers with guild and sin, all total delusions.

Yes, but God put that tree in the garden. Humans, before they ate were completely creatures of God and God could predict their actions. Wouldn't God have known we would eat from the tree? I think he would have, so how could the sin simply be eating the fruit? I believe that when we bit the fruit we got free-will, we didn't have that will before we ate so how could a bite be a sin? THe sin came after we ate and how we reacted to the knowledge of good and evil. We were afraid of it all, and that is the sin./

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
b: "Your simpleton mask:beer: doesnt fly with me Moonie. I hope you arent claiming that I am claiming "victory" here....there is no victory to be had. Its a discussion of differing beliefs. Some things REQUIRE a complicated conversation. It would be the same if you asked me how does BGP work. Or classless inter-domain routing. Or cryptography. Its a complicated answer and one that would probably go over your head. It doesnt mean I think I know more (or are more enlightened) than you, because we all have our strengths. Im sure there are things you would talk me into stupidity with."

All I am really claiming is that I am as unimpressed with logical arguments that explain what make no logical sense to me. I dismiss them unread and out of hand. I'm just like shira with the possible difference that I don't see what you believe as bs. It is just bs to me. I am not only glad you believe it, I am glad you can, because I believe that the God you believe in is, beyond what I consider to be all the tons of cabbage you attach to his being, again is none the less real, but not in any way that you believe him to be real, sadly for me.

Fair enough. :beer:

edit: not sure why it gave shocked icon... I meant beer

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Brigandier

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Brigandier
What was the original sin again?

It was to eat from the tree of knowledge, to use language and to name. Before language humanity was right brained and the boundary between self and the universe did not exist. With the advent of language man created the notion of good and evil, things that do not exist and named himself evil. Thus did man learn to put himself down and internalize self hate. He became a separate lonely mortal creature who suffers with guild and sin, all total delusions.

Yes, but God put that tree in the garden. Humans, before they ate were completely creatures of God and God could predict their actions. Wouldn't God have known we would eat from the tree? I think he would have, so how could the sin simply be eating the fruit? I believe that when we bit the fruit we got free-will, we didn't have that will before we ate so how could a bite be a sin? THe sin came after we ate and how we reacted to the knowledge of good and evil. We were afraid of it all, and that is the sin./

I only tell you what I think. I do not believe in your God who puts trees in gardens. My explanation is pure and simple science, the only thing that makes any sense to me.

I don't see God as a person or thingi, but a state of consciousness you can either access or not.

I find folk who believe in God as some being often are driven to all sorts of crazy notions to defend it and I find atheists to be fools who have no experience with states of being. I sort of hate everybody on all sides of the issue and they hate me. Hehe.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Brigandier

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Brigandier
What was the original sin again?

It was to eat from the tree of knowledge, to use language and to name. Before language humanity was right brained and the boundary between self and the universe did not exist. With the advent of language man created the notion of good and evil, things that do not exist and named himself evil. Thus did man learn to put himself down and internalize self hate. He became a separate lonely mortal creature who suffers with guild and sin, all total delusions.

Yes, but God put that tree in the garden. Humans, before they ate were completely creatures of God and God could predict their actions. Wouldn't God have known we would eat from the tree? I think he would have, so how could the sin simply be eating the fruit? I believe that when we bit the fruit we got free-will, we didn't have that will before we ate so how could a bite be a sin? THe sin came after we ate and how we reacted to the knowledge of good and evil. We were afraid of it all, and that is the sin./

This is actually a little backwards:

[/quote] I believe that when we bit the fruit we got free-will, we didn't have that will before we ate so how could a bite be a sin?[/quote]

Man (general term) ate the fruit not out of obedience, but out of choice and rebellion (and temptation, but thats a little deeper). But overall it was choice, and rebellion. Had we not have had freewill prior to the act, the apple would have remained on the tree.

THe sin came after we ate and how we reacted to the knowledge of good and evil.

Actually the eating of the apple WAS sin.

 

[Brigandier]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

I only tell you what I think. I do not believe in your God who puts trees in gardens. My explanation is pure and simple science, the only thing that makes any sense to me.

I don't see God as a person or thingi, but a state of consciousness you can either access or not.

I find folk who believe in God as some being often are driven to all sorts of crazy notions to defend it and I find atheists to be fools who have no experience with states of being. I sort of hate everybody on all sides of the issue and they hate me. Hehe.

I don't believe in that God that puts trees in gardens, I just believe in making sense out of the allegories of the Bible.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Brigandier

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Brigandier
What was the original sin again?

It was to eat from the tree of knowledge, to use language and to name. Before language humanity was right brained and the boundary between self and the universe did not exist. With the advent of language man created the notion of good and evil, things that do not exist and named himself evil. Thus did man learn to put himself down and internalize self hate. He became a separate lonely mortal creature who suffers with guild and sin, all total delusions.

Yes, but God put that tree in the garden. Humans, before they ate were completely creatures of God and God could predict their actions. Wouldn't God have known we would eat from the tree? I think he would have, so how could the sin simply be eating the fruit? I believe that when we bit the fruit we got free-will, we didn't have that will before we ate so how could a bite be a sin? THe sin came after we ate and how we reacted to the knowledge of good and evil. We were afraid of it all, and that is the sin./

I only tell you what I think. I do not believe in your God who puts trees in gardens. My explanation is pure and simple science, the only thing that makes any sense to me.

I don't see God as a person or thingi, but a state of consciousness you can either access or not.

I find folk who believe in God as some being often are driven to all sorts of crazy notions to defend it and I find atheists to be fools who have no experience with states of being. I sort of hate everybody on all sides of the issue and they hate me. Hehe.

Hate comes from within a corrupted heart. It not hate per se that drives you, but the forces of hate around you. Until you realize your own self love and consciousness, you will forever be lost.

/end Moon response for hate

:tease: all in good fun

 

[jonks]

http://www.tampabay.com/incomi...s-in-jerusalem/1029820

[FL Gov] Crist told a group of real estate agents Friday that he's had prayer notes placed in the Western Wall in Jerusalem each year and no major storms have hit Florida.


*********

So my question is this: why did Crist kill that 7 year old girl who drowned in Maine?

I don't see how anyone is shocked at govt when we elect leaders who by their own admission must be either superstitious fools or pandering hypocrites.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Brigandier

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Brigandier
What was the original sin again?

It was to eat from the tree of knowledge, to use language and to name. Before language humanity was right brained and the boundary between self and the universe did not exist. With the advent of language man created the notion of good and evil, things that do not exist and named himself evil. Thus did man learn to put himself down and internalize self hate. He became a separate lonely mortal creature who suffers with guild and sin, all total delusions.

Yes, but God put that tree in the garden. Humans, before they ate were completely creatures of God and God could predict their actions. Wouldn't God have known we would eat from the tree? I think he would have, so how could the sin simply be eating the fruit? I believe that when we bit the fruit we got free-will, we didn't have that will before we ate so how could a bite be a sin? THe sin came after we ate and how we reacted to the knowledge of good and evil. We were afraid of it all, and that is the sin./

I only tell you what I think. I do not believe in your God who puts trees in gardens. My explanation is pure and simple science, the only thing that makes any sense to me.

I don't see God as a person or thingi, but a state of consciousness you can either access or not.

I find folk who believe in God as some being often are driven to all sorts of crazy notions to defend it and I find atheists to be fools who have no experience with states of being. I sort of hate everybody on all sides of the issue and they hate me. Hehe.

Hate comes from within a corrupted heart. It not hate per se that drives you, but the forces of hate around you. Until you realize your own self love and consciousness, you will forever be lost.

/end Moon response for hate

:tease: all in good fun

What I can't do is will myself to love myself when I don't nor be conscious when I am not. I believe that religions are ways around that problem not open to me. They are bridges that step right over that. Faith, as they say, can move mountains because that faith is in something real. We CAN love ourselves and become conscious and that was the real job of religion.