On Atheism vs. Christianity

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
W: Cargo Cultists come closest to having a genuine religion, real manna from the sky in real airplanes, their dogma is just a little off. The belief that building replica planes will lure real ones down from the sky.

M: Interesting! That opinion wouldn't rely buy any chance, now would it, on the fact that you too have seen planes?


W: Do I feel bitter? Would you feel bitter watching some one drop their mail in a trash receptacle rather then the adjacent Mail Box. They just waste my sympathy.

M: You never look at things from a perspective of uncertainty, it seems. How do you know that the value of a letter may be in the writing and not in the delivery. And then there's the placebo effect.

To quote Moonbeam's Uncertainty Principle "One cannot deduce from the unknown the relationships of the suspected." "When one investigates the unknown 'IT' what they may find revealed is proof that they will never know if they found 'IT'." "Mankind revels in what it knows and doubts what it don't know."

Well, I'm sure I think that is Moonbeam's

Seems it's those unknown unknows that give people fits. It has always seemed to me to be easier to uncover the unknown unknowns if you don't know anything. They don't have anything to hide behind, that way.

Oh my! An egoectomy Easier to see that way. Sorta improves the kind of vision required to see. When you remove doubt you may see what you use to doubt.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: dguy6789
You: If you don't believe in the tooth fairy, you're religious. If you don't believe in unicorns or dragons, you're religious. If you don't believe in God, you're religious.

Me: Sorry, but no.

This kind of argument has been done a million times but not once has a single person ever once answered this question: Why is it religious to not believe in something that has no reason to be believed in?

I don't believe in things without evidence. I don't hold a single superstitious or irrational belief. Everything I believe in has been tested and proven using tools available thus far by someone somewhere. If something proves that one of my beliefs is wrong, I'll instantly alter my beliefs to reflect the truth. That is NOT a religion, that is just common sense.

It's just common sense to have common sense but you say that faith = nonthinking as if you drove a nail in it. That is, I think, because you have faith that thinking is superior to faith. I think you are expressing a value judgment that your view in this is somehow superior because it's common sense and that, I think is faith, faith in assumptions you make that are unexamined. What people are conscious of as themselves is that part of them they can put into words. That would be the consciousness of the talker, the left brain. But the right brain is conscious too but does not talk in words and it knows without thought what you on your left side do not. Thought is a fragment of the self thinking itself the whole but thought is always of the past. God is in the now. You can't know God unless you can change your state. To think you have to master language. To know God you have to stop time. You believe in language but you know nothing of the science of stopping time. You are blinded to that science by the lack of awareness that such a thing could even exist. There are reasons for that. To allow the now is to open a door to suffering.

MY my my how we have grown. Moonbeam your endanger of having many of us . To change your name to Sunny . Couple more baby steps and your going to be baptized in faith. Which will GIVE you HOPE!

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Tom
As to the atrocities that "God" doesn't stop..

Has the world become a more tolerant, civilized place after the holocaust than it was before ? Certainly it's possible to make an argument that it has. Does that mean it's happening was directed by a higher power, as a lesson ?

Same thing could apply to the atrocities in Africa. The point of view that a benevolent god wouldn't let it happen, therefore that no benevolent god exists, doesn't hold water if it's up to us to stop it. It's certainly within our power to stop it, it's just easier to let it go because we think it's happening to someone else, not dealing with the reality it's all one world.

It *IS* nonsensical to assert, either explicitly or implicitly, that anything happens in reality that is contrary to the will of an ominpotent being. Assuming arguendo that such a being exists, then it can only follow that whatever atrocities or unfortunate circumstances are specifically what that being intended.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Tom
As to the atrocities that "God" doesn't stop..

Has the world become a more tolerant, civilized place after the holocaust than it was before ? Certainly it's possible to make an argument that it has. Does that mean it's happening was directed by a higher power, as a lesson ?

Same thing could apply to the atrocities in Africa. The point of view that a benevolent god wouldn't let it happen, therefore that no benevolent god exists, doesn't hold water if it's up to us to stop it. It's certainly within our power to stop it, it's just easier to let it go because we think it's happening to someone else, not dealing with the reality it's all one world.

It *IS* nonsensical to assert, either explicitly or implicitly, that anything happens in reality that is contrary to the will of an ominpotent being. Assuming arguendo that such a being exists, then it can only follow that whatever atrocities or unfortunate circumstances are specifically what that being intended.

Oh I don't know. If I were an infinite being and you tried to box me up like that, being omnipotent and all, I would simply will it to be that atrocities aren't my intention and they wouldn't be.

 

[WHAMPOM]

JEEEZZZZ you guys! Do you forget the basic answer that God cares but does not intervene because Mankind has free will? Which makes Atheism and Theism equal.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
JEEEZZZZ you guys! Do you forget the basic answer that God cares but does not intervene because Mankind has free will? Which makes Atheism and Theism equal.

Possibly, but it doesn't justify any organized religions' beliefs or texts, and frankly, atheists don't really have a problem with theists.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
JEEEZZZZ you guys! Do you forget the basic answer that God cares but does not intervene because Mankind has free will? Which makes Atheism and Theism equal.

How do you come to that conclusion?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Oh I don't know. If I were an infinite being and you tried to box me up like that, being omnipotent and all, I would simply will it to be that atrocities aren't my intention and they wouldn't be.

I know you like to play the insane/intelligent schtick all the time, and a lot of the time I get your meanings and take no issue with them.

This, however, is not one of those times.

If you would like to bring a serious challenge against my argument, then please do so. I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain to you how omnipotence does not mean that God can microwave a burrito so hot even he can't eat it.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Tom
As to the atrocities that "God" doesn't stop..

Has the world become a more tolerant, civilized place after the holocaust than it was before ? Certainly it's possible to make an argument that it has. Does that mean it's happening was directed by a higher power, as a lesson ?

Same thing could apply to the atrocities in Africa. The point of view that a benevolent god wouldn't let it happen, therefore that no benevolent god exists, doesn't hold water if it's up to us to stop it. It's certainly within our power to stop it, it's just easier to let it go because we think it's happening to someone else, not dealing with the reality it's all one world.

It *IS* nonsensical to assert, either explicitly or implicitly, that anything happens in reality that is contrary to the will of an ominpotent being. Assuming arguendo that such a being exists, then it can only follow that whatever atrocities or unfortunate circumstances are specifically what that being intended.

Oh I don't know. If I were an infinite being and you tried to box me up like that, being omnipotent and all, I would simply will it to be that atrocities aren't my intention and they wouldn't be.

Are you a tool . A jew or ya just that narrow of mind. What was so Holocost about the Holocost. Other than it was the main Tool that was used to Bring into the Wotld the New State of Israel. If thats what your referring to . Time will tell if that has a berring on the final solution.

But if your saying 6 million dead jews was Holocost . I beg to differ. Stalin Killed 30,ooo.ooo of his own people Who knows how many Jews. Plus those who died fighting Hitler. The Spanards Wiped out 100,000,000 million South American Indians. Some will say that many were from disease I say yep and those dieses were used as weapons.

USA slaughtered a conservitive 50,000,000 N. American Indian .

So 6 million dead jews is the Holocost not likely. Unless the 6 million deaths Brings on the Holocost threw the new state of Israel , Brought about finally by 6 million JEWISH deaths. Otherwise I think The Holocost was in Russia not Germany.

A better fit would be the Holocost was the loss of over 150,000.000 American indians N. &S. That were the 2 lost tribes of Abraham . If ya want to know the trueth look for it.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Oh I don't know. If I were an infinite being and you tried to box me up like that, being omnipotent and all, I would simply will it to be that atrocities aren't my intention and they wouldn't be.

I know you like to play the insane/intelligent schtick all the time, and a lot of the time I get your meanings and take no issue with them.

This, however, is not one of those times.

If you would like to bring a serious challenge against my argument, then please do so. I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain to you how omnipotence does not mean that God can microwave a burrito so hot even he can't eat it.

Why would I accept you to be qualified to recognize a serious challenge when you don't even seem to know that the reason you microwave a burrito is so you can eat it. And when did you become an authority on God's omnipotence when you don't even believe in Him.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Oh I don't know. If I were an infinite being and you tried to box me up like that, being omnipotent and all, I would simply will it to be that atrocities aren't my intention and they wouldn't be.

I know you like to play the insane/intelligent schtick all the time, and a lot of the time I get your meanings and take no issue with them.

This, however, is not one of those times.

If you would like to bring a serious challenge against my argument, then please do so. I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain to you how omnipotence does not mean that God can microwave a burrito so hot even he can't eat it.

I don't know if a challenge is the appropriate term to use... I'd say that assuming what you proffer is what you believe then that is your view and not subject to debate. What you hold to be self evident or incomprehensible or what ever is what gives you the 'warm and fuzzies'. Now, having said that, I'd not try to match that with what I think for any purpose. IF what you proffer is simply what you find to be logical based on some criteria that you can and wish to defend against challenge the same would apply. I simply try to point to a rational basis for what some find true and others find irrational.
God, your God is what you see him to be. You can be atheist and my useage of the term God is what ever floats your boat. IF you're a Jew the same applies as does what ever one believes. This notion of God is what the mind decides.. the mind of the person. Each of these minds are different and so too must be all aspects of that mind's process.
Religion is intended to group folks with similar belief into clumps so they can distinguish themselves from other clumps. There are so many clumps around that a reasonable question might be: Why is there no agreement on who or what God is. And they then, if they are of a mind to, move about the clumps until they find the right one that fits what they are looking for God to be. Wouldn't it be interesting for someone to say. "I've not a clue who or what God is... but, I know he is in me" Know is truth but only to that person.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Tom
As to the atrocities that "God" doesn't stop..

Has the world become a more tolerant, civilized place after the holocaust than it was before ? Certainly it's possible to make an argument that it has. Does that mean it's happening was directed by a higher power, as a lesson ?

Same thing could apply to the atrocities in Africa. The point of view that a benevolent god wouldn't let it happen, therefore that no benevolent god exists, doesn't hold water if it's up to us to stop it. It's certainly within our power to stop it, it's just easier to let it go because we think it's happening to someone else, not dealing with the reality it's all one world.

It *IS* nonsensical to assert, either explicitly or implicitly, that anything happens in reality that is contrary to the will of an ominpotent being. Assuming arguendo that such a being exists, then it can only follow that whatever atrocities or unfortunate circumstances are specifically what that being intended.

Oh I don't know. If I were an infinite being and you tried to box me up like that, being omnipotent and all, I would simply will it to be that atrocities aren't my intention and they wouldn't be.

Are you a tool . A jew or ya just that narrow of mind. What was so Holocost about the Holocost. Other than it was the main Tool that was used to Bring into the Wotld the New State of Israel. If thats what your referring to . Time will tell if that has a berring on the final solution.

But if your saying 6 million dead jews was Holocost . I beg to differ. Stalin Killed 30,ooo.ooo of his own people Who knows how many Jews. Plus those who died fighting Hitler. The Spanards Wiped out 100,000,000 million South American Indians. Some will say that many were from disease I say yep and those dieses were used as weapons.

USA slaughtered a conservitive 50,000,000 N. American Indian .

So 6 million dead jews is the Holocost not likely. Unless the 6 million deaths Brings on the Holocost threw the new state of Israel , Brought about finally by 6 million JEWISH deaths. Otherwise I think The Holocost was in Russia not Germany.

A better fit would be the Holocost was the loss of over 150,000.000 American indians N. &S. That were the 2 lost tribes of Abraham . If ya want to know the trueth look for it.

Do you think they went to heaven?

I'm not sure but I don't thing all the numbers are reasonable but that aside, we sort of use a term to define what occurred to the European Jew. You can call it what ever you'd like. And you could say that Stalin's efforts was a larger event and the Conquistador effort was somewhat devastating to the Aztec. It amounts to the same thing at the end of the day.
Manifest Destiny was the term the US used to define our expansion back then. They said the US was destined to go from coast to coast and even said divinely inspired to bring some religious folks on board.
I have no idea of the origin of the various American Indian nor the South American ones. They could be from the issue of Abraham but for certain from Noah and Mrs Noah if that water bit is factual.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Oh I don't know. If I were an infinite being and you tried to box me up like that, being omnipotent and all, I would simply will it to be that atrocities aren't my intention and they wouldn't be.

I know you like to play the insane/intelligent schtick all the time, and a lot of the time I get your meanings and take no issue with them.

This, however, is not one of those times.

If you would like to bring a serious challenge against my argument, then please do so. I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain to you how omnipotence does not mean that God can microwave a burrito so hot even he can't eat it.

Why would I accept you to be qualified to recognize a serious challenge when you don't even seem to know that the reason you microwave a burrito is so you can eat it. And when did you become an authority on God's omnipotence when you don't even believe in Him.

Shine on, crazy diamond.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Are you a tool . A jew or ya just that narrow of mind. What was so Holocost about the Holocost. Other than it was the main Tool that was used to Bring into the Wotld the New State of Israel. If thats what your referring to . Time will tell if that has a berring on the final solution.

But if your saying 6 million dead jews was Holocost . I beg to differ. Stalin Killed 30,ooo.ooo of his own people Who knows how many Jews. Plus those who died fighting Hitler. The Spanards Wiped out 100,000,000 million South American Indians. Some will say that many were from disease I say yep and those dieses were used as weapons.

USA slaughtered a conservitive 50,000,000 N. American Indian .

So 6 million dead jews is the Holocost not likely. Unless the 6 million deaths Brings on the Holocost threw the new state of Israel , Brought about finally by 6 million JEWISH deaths. Otherwise I think The Holocost was in Russia not Germany.

A better fit would be the Holocost was the loss of over 150,000.000 American indians N. &S. That were the 2 lost tribes of Abraham . If ya want to know the trueth look for it.

Normally I get a kick out of your bullshit, but this crosses the line. When you start dismissing the extermination of millions of people just because somewhere, someone killed more... you're off your rocker. You've gone completely off-topic, and your quibbles about naming the events are downright degrading in the light of what happened. Basically, it's time for you to take your pills and shut the fuck up.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Oh I don't know. If I were an infinite being and you tried to box me up like that, being omnipotent and all, I would simply will it to be that atrocities aren't my intention and they wouldn't be.

I know you like to play the insane/intelligent schtick all the time, and a lot of the time I get your meanings and take no issue with them.

This, however, is not one of those times.

If you would like to bring a serious challenge against my argument, then please do so. I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain to you how omnipotence does not mean that God can microwave a burrito so hot even he can't eat it.

Why would I accept you to be qualified to recognize a serious challenge when you don't even seem to know that the reason you microwave a burrito is so you can eat it. And when did you become an authority on God's omnipotence when you don't even believe in Him.

Shine on, crazy diamond.

OK, why not. If God is omniscient and is a bearded weirdo, as you seem to believe, he would have to have a brain the size of the universe to store all that data, and that would imply, either that God is the universe and the universe is a computer and it's so big you can't actually make out the beard, or, he is outside of time and space all together, either in another universe or his consciousness is independent of the matter where He stores data. That could mean that the universe is Gods DVD and we are the photons of His Laser. And of course this is just the one universe in which all the folk who ever lived and chose as they did to make this one and there are googleplexes of other universes covering every choice everybody ever made and ever will make in all their combinations so that in deed you not only have free choice and God knows what you will do because you have and will chosen differently in every universe that you are in.

Now I ask you, if you chose every choice that you have had and ever will have, did you chose because you had free will.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

Originally posted by: Tom
As to the atrocities that "God" doesn't stop..

Has the world become a more tolerant, civilized place after the holocaust than it was before ? Certainly it's possible to make an argument that it has. Does that mean it's happening was directed by a higher power, as a lesson ?

Same thing could apply to the atrocities in Africa. The point of view that a benevolent god wouldn't let it happen, therefore that no benevolent god exists, doesn't hold water if it's up to us to stop it. It's certainly within our power to stop it, it's just easier to let it go because we think it's happening to someone else, not dealing with the reality it's all one world.

It *IS* nonsensical to assert, either explicitly or implicitly, that anything happens in reality that is contrary to the will of an ominpotent being. Assuming arguendo that such a being exists, then it can only follow that whatever atrocities or unfortunate circumstances are specifically what that being intended.

Having the ability to control everything and choosing to control everything are 2 different concepts altogether.

God clearly states He hates evil and punishes it. Does He then create evil b/c He is all powerful? But if His will is to end sin, then why would He allow it if He maintains complete control? Maybe God is a bit more complex, and is not just a power-machine. Like I said before, God is not 1 dimensional, although it makes Him a lot easier to tear apart if one makes him 1 dimensional.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: spittledip

Having the ability to control everything and choosing to control everything are 2 different concepts altogether.

Indeed, but when you have the power to materialize any reality you will, it is nonsensical to claim that a reality would materialize contrary to that will. If you truely willed something different, then it would be. That's what omnipotence means.

God clearly states He hates evil and punishes it. Does He then create evil b/c He is all powerful?

Precisely.

But if His will is to end sin, then why would He allow it if He maintains complete control?

There is no coherent answer to that question, because it is nonsensical, as I have stated, repeatedly.

Maybe God is a bit more complex, and is not just a power-machine. Like I said before, God is not 1 dimensional, although it makes Him a lot easier to tear apart if one makes him 1 dimensional.

That's great, but what does it have to do with the price of tea in China?

 

[LunarRay]

Hmmmm... I wonder.
If God is love hate would be evil. Evil then exists in the absence of God. God created man and man became evil but also man could express love and therefore Godly aspects as well. Sin might be evil and be expressed as hate toward God. Let's see... None of the commandments instruct us to hate evil. But some instruct to love. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love.. or near enough to that. Forgive another is to show love, I think... Jesus said to pray "... forgive us as we forgive others ..." a conditional there. Love us as we love others? hmmmm
Could it be as simply as that... God is love and in each to the extent of our love is God? Does the atheist love... I'm sure he does. Does he have God in him if God is love and he loves. I think that follows ok. So a person who does not believe in God will find out that simply his love was all he was speaking to when he spoke of God.
I wonder... hmmmm

Edit: I know I left out the bit about loving God as explained by Jesus and that the atheist don't love God per se... but still IF God is love...

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Hmmmm... I wonder.
If God is love hate would be evil. Evil then exists in the absence of God. God created man and man became evil but also man could express love and therefore Godly aspects as well. Sin might be evil and be expressed as hate toward God. Let's see... None of the commandments instruct us to hate evil. But some instruct to love. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love.. or near enough to that. Forgive another is to show love, I think... Jesus said to pray "... forgive us as we forgive others ..." a conditional there. Love us as we love others? hmmmm
Could it be as simply as that... God is love and in each to the extent of our love is God? Does the atheist love... I'm sure he does. Does he have God in him if God is love and he loves. I think that follows ok. So a person who does not believe in God will find out that simply his love was all he was speaking to when he spoke of God.
I wonder... hmmmm

Edit: I know I left out the bit about loving God as explained by Jesus and that the atheist don't love God per se... but still IF God is love...

Stream-of-consciousness posting doesn't really lend credence to your position. Jesus! Between you, Moonbeam, spittledip, and Nemesis 1, it's like a mentally handicapped Jackson Pollock puked all over the thread, but with words instead of paint.

 

[Moonbeam]

CT: Indeed, but when you have the power to materialize any reality you will, it is nonsensical to claim that a reality would materialize contrary to that will. If you truely willed something different, then it would be. That's what omnipotence means.

M: Don't you think you should be omnipotent to know what omnipotence means or at a minimum, omniscient?

CT: There is no coherent answer to that question, because it is nonsensical, as I have stated, repeatedly.

M: Yes, but you are talking about what is coherent to you. Who is this coherence god that you worship. I see no proof that he exists.

CT: That's great, but what does it have to do with the price of tea in China?

M: Maybe you are trapped in one dimensional thinking. You believe in your assumptions it seems to me.

Perhaps you could consider the possibility that you are completely mad. You need a vacation down the rabbit hole. Off with you head, hehe.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Hmmmm... I wonder.
If God is love hate would be evil. Evil then exists in the absence of God. God created man and man became evil but also man could express love and therefore Godly aspects as well. Sin might be evil and be expressed as hate toward God. Let's see... None of the commandments instruct us to hate evil. But some instruct to love. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love.. or near enough to that. Forgive another is to show love, I think... Jesus said to pray "... forgive us as we forgive others ..." a conditional there. Love us as we love others? hmmmm
Could it be as simply as that... God is love and in each to the extent of our love is God? Does the atheist love... I'm sure he does. Does he have God in him if God is love and he loves. I think that follows ok. So a person who does not believe in God will find out that simply his love was all he was speaking to when he spoke of God.
I wonder... hmmmm

Edit: I know I left out the bit about loving God as explained by Jesus and that the atheist don't love God per se... but still IF God is love...

Stream-of-consciousness posting doesn't really lend credence to your position. Jesus! Between you, Moonbeam, spittledip, and Nemesis 1, it's like a mentally handicapped Jackson Pollock puked all over the thread, but with words instead of paint.

That is sweet, thanks.
I can't speak for the others you mentioned but for me I'd only say that no matter the words you directed to me I take no offense, feel no angst or ill will. I assume you mean what you say and have reason for saying it. I call that opinion and defend your right to express it.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Hmmmm... I wonder.
If God is love hate would be evil. Evil then exists in the absence of God. God created man and man became evil but also man could express love and therefore Godly aspects as well. Sin might be evil and be expressed as hate toward God. Let's see... None of the commandments instruct us to hate evil. But some instruct to love. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love.. or near enough to that. Forgive another is to show love, I think... Jesus said to pray "... forgive us as we forgive others ..." a conditional there. Love us as we love others? hmmmm
Could it be as simply as that... God is love and in each to the extent of our love is God? Does the atheist love... I'm sure he does. Does he have God in him if God is love and he loves. I think that follows ok. So a person who does not believe in God will find out that simply his love was all he was speaking to when he spoke of God.
I wonder... hmmmm

Edit: I know I left out the bit about loving God as explained by Jesus and that the atheist don't love God per se... but still IF God is love...

Stream-of-consciousness posting doesn't really lend credence to your position. Jesus! Between you, Moonbeam, spittledip, and Nemesis 1, it's like a mentally handicapped Jackson Pollock puked all over the thread, but with words instead of paint.

That is sweet, thanks.
I can't speak for the others you mentioned but for me I'd only say that no matter the words you directed to me I take no offense, feel no angst or ill will. I assume you mean what you say and have reason for saying it. I call that opinion and defend your right to express it.

I'm just thankful he didn't call me a mentally handicapped Vincent Van Gogh or I would have cut off my ear.

 

[Moonbeam]

Found this out on the web:

REASON

Rumi considers reason, which is the faculty for thought, cogni­tion, and comprehension, from two points of view. According to Rumi, reason is the faculty

of man that can sometimes be both very valuable and sometimes serve no use. He elaborates his views of two stages. At the first stage, reason is a

very valuable divine gift that distinguishes man from animals and lets him attain humanity. Man defeats his lower self (nafs) with reason and becomes

a superior being by escaping from his bodily desires. Reason is a holy light in the heart; truth and falsehood can be distinguished with it. With the

same token, our Prophet says: "Whoever is foolish,, i. e., has no reason, is our enemy. " Explaining this Prophetic Tradition, Rumi says:

The Prophet said, "Whosoever is foolish, he is our enemy and a ghoul who waylays (the traveler).

Whosoever is intelligent, he is our soul, his breeze and wind is our sweet basil. "

(If) intelligence reviles me, I am well-pleased, because it possesses something that has emanated from my emanative activity, Its revilement is not

without use, its hospitality is not with­out table; (But) if the fool put sweetmeat on my lip, I am in a fever from (tasting) his sweetmeat.

Rumi composed many other couplets that emphasize the importance of reason. He lets us know that reason stops selfish desires and is the opposite of lust.

Rumi metaphorically expresses that selfish desires and lust are feelings that belong to our body and that, as a divine gift, reason remains like a strange

guest in our mortal body. Most of the time the lower self (nafs) overpowers reason. The reason for this is that the dog of self is in rebellion in its

own home: "You are in this body store selling all stuff. There are two valuable elements hidden under your store... Be quick to dig before the end of

this lease of the rented house without you having gained any profit from it. "

Rumi expresses the struggle between reason and the self with the following verses. Like a psychologist, he explains the feelings one by one with

metaphorical expressions and warns us.

The (carnal) nature desires to take revenge on its adversary: reason is an iron chain upon the flesh.

It comes and prevents it (the flesh) and restrains it: reason is like a police-inspector controlling its good and evil (actions).

Reason that is allied to Faith is like a just police-inspector; it is the guardian and magistrate of the city of the heart.

It is mentally alert like a cat; the thief remains in a hole, like a mouse. Wherever the mouse gets the upper hand, no cat is there, or (at least) there

is (only) the (unreal) form of a cat.

What cat (is to be compared with the reason) ? Faith-reason in the body is the lion that overthrows the lions.


In another couplet Rumi compares a man with reason to a spiritual guide carrying the torch that shows the true path and guides those who have remained

in darkness and lost their way: "The intelligent man is he who has the lamp: he is the guide and the leader of the caravan. " Rumi continues to praise

reason: "If Intelligence displays its face in visible form, day will appear dark beside its light. And if the shape of foolishness became visible, beside

it the darkness of night will be radiant. " And: "The tear made by foolishness and ignorance does not admit to being patched up: do not sow the seed of

wisdom there, O counselor. " The Mesnevi contains a parable about Jesus' running away from the fool:

Jesus, son of Mary, was running toward the mountain as if he were running from a lion that wanted to shed his blood. Somebody ran behind him and asked:

"What is wrong? There is no one behind you. Why are you running as fast as a bird flies?"

Jesus was running so fast mat he even did not turn around to answer the man because of his hurry. The man ran a little bit more after Jesus, and he

called out again:

"For God's sake, stop for one moment. Why and from whom are you running away? I want to know. "

Jesus said:

"I am running away from a stupid person. Don't stop me, let me get away. "

The man said:

"Aren't you the Messiah who opens the eyes of the blind and the ears of the deaf?"

Jesus;

"Yes, I am. "

The man asked again:

'Aren't you the one who makes a dead man jump like a lion that has just found its prey?"

Jesus:

"Yes, I am. "

Upon this, the man said:

"O pure and clean spirit! Who are you afraid of when you possess so many miracles?"

Jesus said:

"I read the Greatest Name that God has granted me to a blind person, and his eyes opened. I read it to a deaf man, and his ears started to hear. I read it

over a rock like a mountain, and it split and fell into pieces. I read it over a dead person, and he came back to life and arose. And I read it to a

stupid man a hundred thousand times, but it did not help.

After explaining from many different perspectives that rea­son is a great gift for man, Rumi provides us with a metaphor to show us that, after all, reason

cannot take us further on the path to God, the path of love. He likens reason to the Archangel Gabriel and says: "While the Prophet was ascending toward

God during the Night of Ascension (Mi'raj) with the guidance of Gabriel, they came to a point where reason said: ^O Ahmad, if I take one step further I

will burn. You leave me here, from this point onward. You proceed further, O king of spirit, this is my limitation. '"

According to Rumi there comes a time when reason is no longer of use. How is it that reason that defeats the self, bene­fits us in many ways, raises us

to the level of humanity, makes us attain faith, is thrown away like an old fashioned lamp 'Aql, the Arabic word for reason, comes from the same root

as 'iqal which means "watch-chain. " Like the watch-chain that ties the watch to the vest, if you try to pull and extend something beyond its range, it

breaks. Therefore, Ziya Pasha, speaking of the life of paradise, said, "The comprehension of its higher concepts is not necessary for this little mind

because this scale can­not handle that weight. " The Dutch Erasmus (d. 1526), one of the greatest thinkers of the Renaissance era, maintains in his work

Praise to Folly that reason is sometimes useless. The great poet Fudhuli complains of reason in one of his couplets: "I seek guidance from reason, and

reason gives me misguidance. " Rumi stated that reason cannot be called reason when it becomes an obstacle to attaining the greater truths: "When your

mind becomes an obstacle for you on the path of God then that is no more a mind. It is a snake and a scorpion. Rumi describes as a mischief-maker the

faculty of reason that he once praised very much and that took us toward good and humanity: "The mind that is a mischief-maker takes the spirit

to evil. " "Sell reason and mind and buy excitement, " he says. "What you call reason and intellect are a guess and an illusion but excitement is insight.

Sacrifice reason in the presence of Mustafa (the Prophet of Islam) and say "Hasbiy Allah' (God is enough for me). Wherever, in whatever matter, you see

a selfish interest, run away from it, drink poison, and pour the Water of Life Ever-Lasting on the ground. If somebody praises you, insult him and curse

at him. Give your capital to the bankrupt person. Leave security and go where there is fear and danger. Leave your reputation and dignity. Be publicly

disgraced. I have already tried the mind that thoroughly contemplates and calculates the future, from now on I will try to adopt craziness. "

In the Mesnevi, Rumi refers to the well-known tale of Moses and Khidr as narrated in the Qur'an, explaining that although Moses was a prophet, he could

not make sense of some of the things Khidr did: "Acts that were trivial for Khidr bewildered the mind of Moses. When Moses saw those things, he could not

make sense of them. Those acts seemed inopportune and untimely to Moses because Moses did not have that spiritual state (of Khidr). If Moses1 mind could

not make sense of the matters of the Unseen, the matters that happen beyond, then how can that mouse mind of yours make sense of them?"

In other verses in the Mesnevi, Rumi discusses the faculty of the mind:

The foresight of this mind is up to the grave. But the mind of a "possessor of heart" sees things that are to come until Judgment Day and the blowing of

the Trumpet. This mind goes no further than the grave and soil. This foot cannot go beyond to the field where there are amazing things. You give up on

this mind and on this foot and walk. Seek an eye for yourself that can see the unseen world and be saved.

When the human being escapes this mind that is full of desires, passions, and aspirations, he finds hundreds of thousands of amazing minds.

In love, there are many bright and beautiful things other than what can be comprehended with this mind. In God there are many minds other than yours

with which He manages the infinite heavens and countless worlds therein. You obtain the nourishment of this world with this mind. With the other mind,

you transcend the seven heavens. If you let go of yourself in the love of God, escape from the ego, and abandon the mind, God gives you ten times

this mind, even seven hundred times.

I presented some of Rumi's views found in the Mesnevi regarding the real reason that will lead us to God. I also found it useful to borrow a few

couplets from the Divan-i Kabir dis­cussing the same subject:

Reason is a chain around the feet of those who set out on the path of God and the lovers of God. O son, break this chain, the path is perfectly visible.

Reason is a bond and the heart is an illusion. The body is taken by arrogance and pride. The soul hid itself behind a curtain and does not show itself.

Under these circum­stances, with these heavy burdens, how can you proceed toward the truth? The path is invisible and hidden. It is hoped mat if you

give up reason, the heart, and the soul, you will be able to see the path of complete understanding and perception of God.

Yesterday reason ran away from our assembly barefooted because we are out of the realm of reason and assumptions.

You are submerged in thoughts, you are looking for a remedy for your illness while in fact the thing that increases your illness and annoys you is your

being submerged in thoughts. The thoughts are preventing you from proceeding on the path to God. If you want to attain God and truth, leave thoughts and

increase the excitement. You are not a man of thoughts, but a man of clarity, a man of heart. Thought turns into a dragon on the path that leads to God.

O soul, be crazy, be insane, why are you relying on reason, why are you tying yourself to reason?

I grabbed reason by its ear and said: "O reason! Get out, today I am saved from you. O reason, take your hand off me. Today I attained insanity, and held on

to it. "

May the people with reason be far from the lovers of God. May the smell coming from the drain pipe of a bath remain far from the zephyr. If someone with

reason comes to our assembly do not let him in, but if a lover of God comes, welcome him and say, 'Welcome, you have honored us' to him hundreds of times.

Love shies away from the light of reason. It is a very bad thing to become old at a young age.

You have two heads. One is the head of earth that belongs to this world; the other is the spiritual head that belongs to the heavens.

What Rumi describes as the reason that provides us with material benefits, makes us superior to the animals, is apparent­ly the reason that is our material

mind, which Rumi calls "the head of earth." At the first stage, Rumi praised this kind of rea­son, and then he found reason to be insufficient, rejected it,

and left it behind. After saying that it is crazy to carry this material reason, he began describing the other spiritual reason that is in our other head

that belongs to the heavens. It is clear that we can attain God and truth only through the reason in the pure head that belongs to the heavens

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
CT: Indeed, but when you have the power to materialize any reality you will, it is nonsensical to claim that a reality would materialize contrary to that will. If you truely willed something different, then it would be. That's what omnipotence means.

M: Don't you think you should be omnipotent to know what omnipotence means or at a minimum, omniscient?

"Omnipotent" is a word in human language. We decide what it means, therefore. If you would like to critique my usage, then by all means, feel free. It isn't a word that I even believe to have representation in reality, and my reductio is premised entirely on how I perceive the word to be used by theists.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

I'm just thankful he didn't call me a mentally handicapped Vincent Van Gogh or I would have cut off my ear.

I thought you would have lopped off both ears by now!