On Atheism vs. Christianity

[Moonbeam]

"Good Godless Mawnin' to ya," said shira to Nemesis 1. But Nemesis 1 just kept the faith.

"I say Good Godless Mawnin' to ya," said shira a little louder to Nemesis 1. But Nemesis 1 kept the faith.

"Youse is mighty stuck up is what you is," said shira. "Why cain't you be civil to a body whom is sayin' Good Godless Mawnin' to you?" Nemesis 1 just kept the faith.

"I'm gonna give you one more chance to speak to me, Mister, than I'm gonna teach you some logic," said shira but Nemesis 1 sat there as obstinate and silent as a piece of shiny, black coal.

So shira hauled off and "WHAP!" he knocked dat Nemesis 1 upside de head!

Only thing was he found himself stuck fast to da 1.

"Let go my hand," said shira, "or I'm gonna knock you silly!" Da Nemesis 1 just started a prayen.

So shira commenced to land his fist round about da Nemesis 1's head and low and behold got da other hand stuck too!

At this shira became so boiling mad he began to kick and flail de Nemesis 1 but he only got hisself mired deeper and deeper in da sticky faith.

Once he was good and stuck tight in his predicament, Brer Moonbeam sauntered out from behind de bushes and said, "Why looky here what I done found! Dat sassy shira has got hisself bound up tight, indeed he do an da onliest thing dat gonna save him is a crown of thorns from dat der Briar Patch known as God's Grace."

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
A omniscent god and free will is a contradiction, if what will happen is foretold then you have only the choice that is already chosen.

Omnipotency is another problem since it means that god can in fact do whatever he wants and as i say to my men in my first speech after they come under my command, to stand by while evil takes its course is as bad as being the one who commits the evil acts.

So either God is evil and free will does not exist or God is not perfect (a perfect being requires Omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscense).

I'm sure holy rollers have a way to explain away reality even in this case, but if you need to... think about it.

That is NOT to say i look down on people with faith, if it helps you through the day, more power to you.

And for the record, I don't look down on folks who get through the day without faith in a God.
I don't know why we've decided to assign all this Omni... stuff but assume it goes along with what we need God to be in order for him to be God. At the same time what is all this logic being applied to a God who you don't believe exists and no one can prove does? Seems a defense to a position that justifies an unbelief. I prefer to simply say that God is what ever he is or wants to be and the folks who wrote the stories about him and about the Christ used terms to inspire. I presume they had no editors to counsel them but they did have an intended audience. I have no idea who wrote the last book of the new testament and doubt anyone knows for sure but there it is.
I suppose this free will stuff comes about because anyone can tell folks do evil stuff so.. it must exist. God created the universe maybe others too and if he did he must be beyond belief in the power he has... he must be.... Omnipotent and all the other ones.. heck, over 8 feet tall probably.

Edit: I asked a nun who taught a class I was in: How tall was Jesus?. She quickly answered "Jesus was 6' tall exactly AND no one will ever be exactly 6' tall... he was unique." I've no idea where that came from and it was really a question to lead into another question.. which was: Why do you suppose they'd have measured him. No where does it indicate he was exactly any height?... etc.. (I was a wise ass)
Why would she not say simply "I've no idea." I somehow knew she was compelled to give an answer and one she had heard or read or made up... but I knew I'd get some kind of height as a response.

If personal faith was the standard i really couldn't care less, the problem is that there are people who want others to adhere to rules set by religion whether they want to or not, they use the perfection of God as an argument to do so.

I'm not only talking about the UK but also people like Karzai in Afghanistan, these ideas are several millenia old and are used to make women slaves in the name of God, whichever god you prefer and there are people arguing that it should be law that the man is above the woman as it says in the bible or koran or whatever archaic laws they want to refer to that were set forth by an all mighty perfect supernatural being.

I usually like your posts, you've got a lot of good information when it comes to laws and usually you have common sense, that is what i am talking about, good people like yourself just blow your common sense away when it comes to God.

I honestly think it's fucking pathetic that you have to give up your brain and usual sharpness of your mind to accept something you could not accept if you had actually used your brain.

I don't know if that offends you, if it does, tough tits, this is a religion thread and if you put forth an argument devoid of any kind of sense i'll fucking tell you about it.

John, I don't disagree at all. My point is simply that a relationship with God or the absence of one is completely unique to the individual. The folks in Afghanistan are no different than the ones in the Vatican with regard to their 'holding the flock together'. The motives may be very similar in some respects but the resulting outcome is beyond the beyonds in my opinion. I don't much care for any human organization of God nor the folks who accept a God putting that 'trip' on the next person unless that person has some interest and asks.
I've my own reasons for what I take on faith and what I need some proof of. My reasons are based on how my brain and mind interact with my universe and I expect most others have the same process with differing results.
As you indicate above regarding my use of my brain to accept what if I did use my brain I'd not accept is from your mind and I accept without question that is your logical conclusion with out offense. I've tried to indicate that we are all different to some degree and you didn't get the God gene and I did. I'm sure there is some other aspects of our life that differ greatly as well and for the same reason. That is my point, actually. I accept a God cuz I can (I could reject that notion if I wanted, I suppose) and you don't cuz you can't. It probably has to do with how our brain function enables our minds to think as we do.

Well, that i can respect, i can't fully understand why you'd believe in a god and i won't claim knowledge on the subject either. I am glad that you took my post as it was intended and not as an attack on you as a person.

You are entirely correct, i can't accept a god based on faith alone, nor can i accept anything based on faith alone. The difference between you and other people of faith is that you do not look down on me because of it and i don't look down on you because you can.

This post of yours is by far the best post in the thread and the most informative one i have seen, it's devoid of insistances that i must not know like you know.

You get a :beer: for that and yeah, it's a Guiness.

 

[totalnoob]

Quote of the day for those who believe human life started in a garden with talking snakes and magical trees..

"What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call man's Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge-he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil-he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor-he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire-he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness; joy-all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man?s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was-that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love-he was NOT man." -Ayn Rand, 1957

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
JoS: So you assume, but i'd say you are wrong, those kind of people who claim to have knowledge of God are all making him up in their own minds, they know the exact specs according to their own imaginations.

M: You wouldn't understand things like nun experience and logic nor would you understand joy and reality. You pretend to be wise but you're just loud and obnoxious, walking around strutting and shouting obscenities and vulgar insults like the big asshole that you are. Your insulting lout mouthed bull shit gets old and tiresome, but then you're probably to stupid to notice. Shut the fuck up you fat lipped imbecile.

Now that we have the proper kisses and hugs out of the way, I suppose I can waste some time explaining that what you saw in that nun you saw because you are dense and not subtle, stereotyping and ignorant of of higher dimensional matters. You saw what you can see, not what a far deeper person like me is capable of interpreting. You see, LR is a wise ass of a well known type to us religious savants like me and nuns. He asked a factual statistical question about something that can only be approached by faith. He wanted to measure God with logic and so what that nun did was slap him in his reason by providing an absurd answer, 6 ft. exactly to his technical question. You want to ask me a meaningless question, my dear boy, then here is your meaning less answer. She was not expressing some made up notion of what God is, but saving LR from his absurdity. She has no idea how tall Jesus was but she knew how to stop his mentality cold. You want to measure God, fine, 6 feet exactly and like no other. The universe is still laughing, I am sure. So put that in you pipe and smoke it, you dumb asshole. Hahahahhahahaha!


JoS: But you wouldn't understand things like rationality or logic, nor would you understand concepts like pain and reality, you pretend to be wise but you're not, the walking around the issue stunt you pull every single time you answer someone is getting mighty old and the "defeat them with a post so long and filled with nothing what so ever" schtick is even older by now.

M: You are a stupid man in a a war zone, filled with stress and anxiety while I am safe, sort of, far away. You are pumped up on what you experience, like a greedy dog, and have no sympathy or time for the feelings of others. I have felt all the pain there is in this world, stupid, just like you have, but I am mature and have more charity than you. I don't have to suck my thumb because I'm getting shot at. Take care of yourself you big jerk, I love you. You couldn't insult me if you got up early. I like you so what you say to me is like whispers from a lover.

JoS: So why don't you just stick to the fucking subject and answer in a consise way instead of dancing around like a fucking squirrel on meth? Too advanced for your bleak mind?

M: What is the fucking subject, idiot. Don't talk about the subject without mentioning what the fuck it is. I am always on the subject that matters to me. You can eat your subject and shit it as you will. You apply advanced to me because you think you are. I don't think anything. I feel. Who gives a fuck about advanced.

Watch your ass and stay safe. I think about you all the time when you don't post for a while.

Do you ever do anything except dance around the issue at hand? It's just Blah blah FUCKING blah with you. Get to the point for once you twit. My point is what do YOU know about real live human beings other than yourself? You don't know sheit about me or my team, you don't know my or anyone elses feelings, our beliefs or our hope, you are referring to yourself and as you are, perhaps you should keep your philosophy to yourself?

I don't really consider you ignorant or stupid, i'm sure you don't consider me stupid either, but i have seen things that have shaped me into the man i am and as experience is needed in my line of work, it's been pretty much all i have seen ever since. But i could explain the the theory of evolution to you too because i have that knowledge, i can explain special relativity or the twin paradox in all of it's five incarnations if i'd have to... So don't call me stupid.

I'll respond to the last paragraph though, i am not in Afghanistan anymore and i am not home, so don't worry, i'll be just fine and thank you for your thoughts.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: totalnoob
What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call man's Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge-he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil-he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor-he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire-he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness; joy-all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man?s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was-that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love-he was NOT man." -Ayn Rand, 1957

No, actually Eve lured the first man into sin and it's been the problem of every religion derived from that story ever since. It's mens will to keep women as the scapegoat who deserves whatever she gets. That is my entire experience with any of the Abrahamic religions.

If Ayn didn't know that, she should have fucking studied up.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
"Good Godless Mawnin' to ya," said shira to Nemesis 1. But Nemesis 1 just kept the faith.

"I say Good Godless Mawnin' to ya," said shira a little louder to Nemesis 1. But Nemesis 1 kept the faith.

"Youse is mighty stuck up is what you is," said shira. "Why cain't you be civil to a body whom is sayin' Good Godless Mawnin' to you?" Nemesis 1 just kept the faith.

"I'm gonna give you one more chance to speak to me, Mister, than I'm gonna teach you some logic," said shira but Nemesis 1 sat there as obstinate and silent as a piece of shiny, black coal.

So shira hauled off and "WHAP!" he knocked dat Nemesis 1 upside de head!

Only thing was he found himself stuck fast to da 1.

"Let go my hand," said shira, "or I'm gonna knock you silly!" Da Nemesis 1 just started a prayen.

So shira commenced to land his fist round about da Nemesis 1's head and low and behold got da other hand stuck too!

At this shira became so boiling mad he began to kick and flail de Nemesis 1 but he only got hisself mired deeper and deeper in da sticky faith.

Once he was good and stuck tight in his predicament, Brer Moonbeam sauntered out from behind de bushes and said, "Why looky here what I done found! Dat sassy shira has got hisself bound up tight, indeed he do an da onliest thing dat gonna save him is a crown of thorns from dat der Briar Patch known as God's Grace."

When you "feel" more like dealing in rational, intellectually honest give-and-take interaction rather than "feeling" your way into posting non sequiturs, I'll be happy to discuss any topic you'd like. Until then, I decline.

P.S. I enjoyed your child-in-the-library image, above. Well said.

 

[Moonbeam]

JoS: Do you ever do anything except dance around the issue at hand? It's just Blah blah FUCKING blah with you. Get to the point for once you twit. My point is what do YOU know about real live human beings other than yourself? You don't know sheit about me or my team, you don't know my or anyone elses feelings, our beliefs or our hope, you are referring to yourself and as you are, perhaps you should keep your philosophy to yourself?

M: You believe different things than I do based on what you have experienced. My experience leads to the following conclusion:

We are all the same. He who knows himself knows everybody. I know all about you if I know all about me. If you don't know who you are you don't know anything. Humanity, that means you, are asleep. You know all kinds of things. You have all kinds of thoughts, all kinds of opinions, what you do not know is what you feel. You have no idea how tremendously difficult it is to know that. You have little experience there. You can't begin to imagine the source of your external reactions without a tremendous amount of work. Since you have no idea what you feel and therefore no idea who you are, you can't make the slightest sense of what I say. You do not know what you feel and you don't know that you don't. You can't believe what I say or that is something you know absolutely nothing about.

But I know exactly what happens when people are informed of this fact.

JoS: I don't really consider you ignorant or stupid, i'm sure you don't consider me stupid either, but i have seen things that have shaped me into the man i am and as experience is needed in my line of work, it's been pretty much all i have seen ever since. But i could explain the the theory of evolution to you too because i have that knowledge, i can explain special relativity or the twin paradox in all of it's five incarnations if i'd have to... So don't call me stupid.

M: Hehe, I don't think you are stupid at all. I think you see things in a way that allows you to survive and that has required intense focus on the situation around you. The feelings that I claim you do not know you feel......they still leak out from the unconscious, and appear here now as the suspicion that I think you are stupid. There is nothing that we have been put down about more than our intelligence. Look at shira. He is always in a battle to prove he is smarter than me because he carries his inferiority inside his sleeve and manifest arrogance externally as a defense. He has a need to put others down. Now I am not saying I am not the same, only that I have felt how stupid I was made to feel and so I can see how I have the same need. But they say that knowledge sets you free. When you know who you are you don't have any longer to respond mechanically.

You don't need to explain to me how smart you are. Beyond being made to feel stupid, I am stupid.


JoS: I'll respond to the last paragraph though, i am not in Afghanistan anymore and i am not home, so don't worry, i'll be just fine and thank you for your thoughts.

M: Great. Good luck, and any time. I don't consider the Taliban to be religious or spiritual. I see them as fanatical deluded fools whose patriarchal privilege is threatened by the modern world and who will either evolve and grow up or be exterminated.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
"Good Godless Mawnin' to ya," said shira to Nemesis 1. But Nemesis 1 just kept the faith.

"I say Good Godless Mawnin' to ya," said shira a little louder to Nemesis 1. But Nemesis 1 kept the faith.

"Youse is mighty stuck up is what you is," said shira. "Why cain't you be civil to a body whom is sayin' Good Godless Mawnin' to you?" Nemesis 1 just kept the faith.

"I'm gonna give you one more chance to speak to me, Mister, than I'm gonna teach you some logic," said shira but Nemesis 1 sat there as obstinate and silent as a piece of shiny, black coal.

So shira hauled off and "WHAP!" he knocked dat Nemesis 1 upside de head!

Only thing was he found himself stuck fast to da 1.

"Let go my hand," said shira, "or I'm gonna knock you silly!" Da Nemesis 1 just started a prayen.

So shira commenced to land his fist round about da Nemesis 1's head and low and behold got da other hand stuck too!

At this shira became so boiling mad he began to kick and flail de Nemesis 1 but he only got hisself mired deeper and deeper in da sticky faith.

Once he was good and stuck tight in his predicament, Brer Moonbeam sauntered out from behind de bushes and said, "Why looky here what I done found! Dat sassy shira has got hisself bound up tight, indeed he do an da onliest thing dat gonna save him is a crown of thorns from dat der Briar Patch known as God's Grace."

When you "feel" more like dealing in rational, intellectually honest give-and-take interaction rather than "feeling" your way into posting non sequiturs, I'll be happy to discuss any topic you'd like. Until then, I decline.

P.S. I enjoyed your child-in-the-library image, above. Well said.

I have tried as best I can to rationally explain why reason is useless as a means to knowledge for the religious. They are on a bridge that leads to God from the heart. You are a thinker. It is not your way. You see how intellectually naive folk of faith are but yours isn't the way of the heart. They are speaking Greek to you, or emotionally silly nonsense. Because their methods mean nothing to you, you can't see where, if anywhere, they are going. But the path of the heart can be a beautiful way.

The fact is that you not only decline, you can't go that way, even if you wanted to. You are a thinker and you need to go that way. You have to come to the end of thought by thinking, seeing that thought is a total dead end, that the thinker is a fragment of the self pretending to speak for the whole. A fragment cannot become the whole. A fragment analyzes itself as if it were separate. The eye cannot see itself. The thinker can think forever and never know a thing. The question for you is Can thought end. Can the thinker die? I would imagine it helps to be smart as a thinker and you are. But be careful you aren't so smart you fool yourself.

All I wish to do is to suggest that we are more than we imagine, that we have been conditioned to think we are small but that throughout history amazing people appear, sometimes refered to as avatars, somethimes by other names, but that they come with a message that we can evolve toward something we can't imagine. You don't have any faith in that. That's fine, but just don't slam the door on it too hard. I have no logic to convince you with. I have experiences that indicate to me there is more to human nature than I could ever have imagined and more than I have imagined and I feel this is true because I have had experiences that indicate so and I have had them through no virtue of my own, but purely accidentally.

You too could be an accident waiting to happen. That's all. I have nothing to teach, nothing to show you. I don't believe that God is anything more than man's inner potential, a projection of what any man can become. The thought is so revolutionary and unusual for our times and culture that I can only look like a fool. That's not so bad though, seeing as how I'm a nobody.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
JoS: Do you ever do anything except dance around the issue at hand? It's just Blah blah FUCKING blah with you. Get to the point for once you twit. My point is what do YOU know about real live human beings other than yourself? You don't know sheit about me or my team, you don't know my or anyone elses feelings, our beliefs or our hope, you are referring to yourself and as you are, perhaps you should keep your philosophy to yourself?

M: You believe different things than I do based on what you have experienced. My experience leads to the following conclusion:

We are all the same. He who knows himself knows everybody. I know all about you if I know all about me. If you don't know who you are you don't know anything. Humanity, that means you, are asleep. You know all kinds of things. You have all kinds of thoughts, all kinds of opinions, what you do not know is what you feel. You have no idea how tremendously difficult it is to know that. You have little experience there. You can't begin to imagine the source of your external reactions without a tremendous amount of work. Since you have no idea what you feel and therefore no idea who you are, you can't make the slightest sense of what I say. You do not know what you feel and you don't know that you don't. You can't believe what I say or that is something you know absolutely nothing about.

But I know exactly what happens when people are informed of this fact.

I assume it's empathy you are referring to but you are expanding into something it is not, that isn't just my humble opinion, psychology and biology has proven that individuals are indeed individuals. So if you are not me, you don't know how i will think or be outside of the universal empathy that most (well, all sane people) share.

JoS: I don't really consider you ignorant or stupid, i'm sure you don't consider me stupid either, but i have seen things that have shaped me into the man i am and as experience is needed in my line of work, it's been pretty much all i have seen ever since. But i could explain the the theory of evolution to you too because i have that knowledge, i can explain special relativity or the twin paradox in all of it's five incarnations if i'd have to... So don't call me stupid.

M: Hehe, I don't think you are stupid at all. I think you see things in a way that allows you to survive and that has required intense focus on the situation around you. The feelings that I claim you do not know you feel......they still leak out from the unconscious, and appear here now as the suspicion that I think you are stupid. There is nothing that we have been put down about more than our intelligence. Look at shira. He is always in a battle to prove he is smarter than me because he carries his inferiority inside his sleeve and manifest arrogance externally as a defense. He has a need to put others down. Now I am not saying I am not the same, only that I have felt how stupid I was made to feel and so I can see how I have the same need. But they say that knowledge sets you free. When you know who you are you don't have any longer to respond mechanically.

You don't need to explain to me how smart you are. Beyond being made to feel stupid, I am stupid.

I actually added that part before i posted because of one reason, to see if you even understand the very point of my argument and my critique of yours and you clearly don't. You're not stupid, you can't change the meaning of worlds to suit your needs and then claim that you believe that one word you use means something else to you. That isn't reasonable. Now Palin and miss whatshername are stupid, you're not so quit saying that you are.


JoS: I'll respond to the last paragraph though, i am not in Afghanistan anymore and i am not home, so don't worry, i'll be just fine and thank you for your thoughts.

M: Great. Good luck, and any time. I don't consider the Taliban to be religious or spiritual. I see them as fanatical deluded fools whose patriarchal privilege is threatened by the modern world and who will either evolve and grow up or be exterminated.

You and me both, unfortunantly the US and UK leadership at the time loved them so much that they wanted to let them rule forever, i can see no other reason why we were not allowed to finish a job that would have been done in less than a year back then. (My team was the first team on ground) Now it's already over, the Taliban won, admit defeat and witdraw the men.

My replies in bold above.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
"Good Godless Mawnin' to ya," said shira to Nemesis 1. But Nemesis 1 just kept the faith.

"I say Good Godless Mawnin' to ya," said shira a little louder to Nemesis 1. But Nemesis 1 kept the faith.

"Youse is mighty stuck up is what you is," said shira. "Why cain't you be civil to a body whom is sayin' Good Godless Mawnin' to you?" Nemesis 1 just kept the faith.

"I'm gonna give you one more chance to speak to me, Mister, than I'm gonna teach you some logic," said shira but Nemesis 1 sat there as obstinate and silent as a piece of shiny, black coal.

So shira hauled off and "WHAP!" he knocked dat Nemesis 1 upside de head!

Only thing was he found himself stuck fast to da 1.

"Let go my hand," said shira, "or I'm gonna knock you silly!" Da Nemesis 1 just started a prayen.

So shira commenced to land his fist round about da Nemesis 1's head and low and behold got da other hand stuck too!

At this shira became so boiling mad he began to kick and flail de Nemesis 1 but he only got hisself mired deeper and deeper in da sticky faith.

Once he was good and stuck tight in his predicament, Brer Moonbeam sauntered out from behind de bushes and said, "Why looky here what I done found! Dat sassy shira has got hisself bound up tight, indeed he do an da onliest thing dat gonna save him is a crown of thorns from dat der Briar Patch known as God's Grace."

OMG... and all before you've had your eggs, bacon, coffee and ... oh yeah.. toast.

 

[LunarRay]

Moonster said:
"M: Great. Good luck, and any time. I don't consider the Taliban to be religious or spiritual. I see them as fanatical deluded fools whose patriarchal privilege is threatened by the modern world and who will either evolve and grow up or be exterminated."

I see the Taliban as both religious and spiritual. I see them just like I saw the Inquisition or the Crusades or any group who condemn on earth in God's name.
These Taliban folks just like all the rest use the Notion of God's demands and rewards and to me that is religion. Al Q telling folks to wash up for the virgins are before you... or that women are the cause of man's suffering. They have faith in their way to God and that is spiritual. It may even be their truth. It ain't mine but it does sound like burning witches and branding heretics of our Holy Catholic Church of yesterday year to me.

 

[Moonbeam]

JoSI assume it's empathy you are referring to but you are expanding into something it is not, that isn't just my humble opinion, psychology and biology has proven that individuals are indeed individuals. So if you are not me, you don't know how i will think or be outside of the universal empathy that most (well, all sane people) share.

M: I said we are all the same, but I probably should not have. We are very much the same, most of us, with the differences meaning little. There is one case, I believe, where we may actually be different, and that is the degree to which we may feel empathy, and that some times people are born who can feel none, and they may become what we call serial killers, people who are not essentially human because they cannot distinguish on a feeling level the living from the dead, that to them nothing at all is alive. What I mean is that we are all born perfect, whole, and united and that we grow and are taught words that are used against us to make us feel bad, that we are all born with a capacity like apes to swing and hoot from trees, to play and feel everything with as a massive joy, and all that is taken away by self hate. Without our language we would only be brilliant animals, but with it we are deeply divided and deeply emotionally sick. We do not know our self hate because we will not allow ourselves to feel. I can not prove this. You can't believe it. Those feelings are profoundly hard to get to.

One person is smart, one a good musical, another a great athletic. We are different but we are the same in that we do not know what we feel. We do not observe that we are almost never conscious and aware. We are machines that react when our buttons are pushed, unconsciously. It takes work and some humility to see these things. Anyway, I say what I see but I cannot convince. It takes experience to develop a touch stone.

JoS: I actually added that part before i posted because of one reason, to see if you even understand the very point of my argument and my critique of yours and you clearly don't. You're not stupid, you can't change the meaning of worlds to suit your needs and then claim that you believe that one word you use means something else to you. That isn't reasonable. Now Palin and miss whatshername are stupid, you're not so quit saying that you are.

M: I do not. I do not also even understand what you mean here when you say it. I do not know what words I changed or when I was doing that. I always ask folk to tell me in concrete terms what they mean because I don't get the abstractions. I am not smart enough to, perhaps, despite what you say. I don't want to be unreasonable when I can be. My only beef against reason is that it can't get you very far. I am all for reason when it is useful. I am trying to be reasonable right now, hehe. See, I don't think Palin is stupid and I defend her from that charge all the time. I see her as a product of a certain kind of mental conditioning and conformity. She is a fundamentalist. You could equate that to stupid and that would be OK with me, but it still works on smart people. Conditioning is pernicious.

JoS: You and me both, unfortunately the US and UK leadership at the time loved them so much that they wanted to let them rule forever, i can see no other reason why we were not allowed to finish a job that would have been done in less than a year back then. (My team was the first team on ground) Now it's already over, the Taliban won, admit defeat and witdraw the men.

M: I have a hunch you are right but I do not know. I may also be a dangerous lunatic. I spent my childhood figuring out ways to destroy my fellow man coming up with weapons of mass destruction. I do not trust myself and do not want power. But I will tell you what I would have done with the ethnic war is old Yugoslavia ideas I expressed at the time to people's horror.

I guessed that if Serbia went off the farm 250,000 people would die. That is the number I picked before things went nuts. I said that if I were the President I would tell Serbia this:

If you start this war of ethnic killing you will kill 250,000 innocent people, so let's right now write them off as dead. 250,000 people are going to die if you move, and their deaths are certain. So go right ahead with your ethnic cleansing, but know that when you do we are going to help you reach that number. We will immediately bomb your cities until 250,000 Serbs are dead. We are just going to change the location of the dead and we guarantee this will happen so go right ahead.

I figure we would only have to prove that one time in history, and the next time, somebody wants to start ethnic cleansing folk will listen when we start counting up how many they want to kill.

The estimate for the number killed in that war was 250,000 I believe.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Moonster said:
"M: Great. Good luck, and any time. I don't consider the Taliban to be religious or spiritual. I see them as fanatical deluded fools whose patriarchal privilege is threatened by the modern world and who will either evolve and grow up or be exterminated."

I see the Taliban as both religious and spiritual. I see them just like I saw the Inquisition or the Crusades or any group who condemn on earth in God's name.
These Taliban folks just like all the rest use the Notion of God's demands and rewards and to me that is religion. Al Q telling folks to wash up for the virgins are before you... or that women are the cause of man's suffering. They have faith in their way to God and that is spiritual. It may even be their truth. It ain't mine but it does sound like burning witches and branding heretics of our Holy Catholic Church of yesterday year to me.

Well I guess so, but I don't think exactly that way. I don't go for the idea that religion is subjective. I believe that the way to know a religion from a mental conditioning is what effects it creates. The Tibetans who had a real religion were people who were gentle and loving whereas the Taliban are hard and full of hate. They practice a sickness, not a religion. What they think they practice is irrelevant to me. I look at the results. If it walks like a duck quacks like a duck, and straps on a suicide vest, it's not a duck but one that wants you to.

I also believe they are a total perversion of Islam.

 

[Moonbeam]

The True Meaning of Islam

by M.R. Bawa Muhaiyaddeen

In the name of Allah, Most Merciful, Most Compassionate.
In the name of God, the Most Merciful and Most Compassionate. May all praise be for God alone. May we give the entire responsibility for our lives to that one God who is limitless grace and incomparable love. May the peace of God and all His blessings fill the lives of all who may read this message.

To all who say they believe in God, please realize with your faith that God hears every word you say. God hears your every thought. Realizing this, speak only what is truth and act only with God's qualities of love, compassion, justice, patience, and the realization that each life is as important as your own. This is the true message within the Qur'an. The Qur'an does not cause divisions among God's children. It exists to bring about brotherhood and unity. The Qur'an soothes those who weep in sorrow and gives comfort to those who suffer. To those who may be poor, it explains the bounteous wealth of God. It inspires faith in those who may not have believed in God and helps them reach a state of reverence for God.

Do not wave the words of the Qur'an as though they were a banner you were going to carry into battle. Do not say, "The Qur'an says this and the Qur'an says that," without truly understanding the inner wisdom of God's qualities within your own life. If one has faith, certitude, and determination, he will see the seed of that purity that is Islam within everything. He will see the power of Allah in every creation. Therefore, he will not discriminate against another creation or discard him.

Anyone who has the purity of Islam and that true faith, certitude, and determination within his heart cannot hurt the heart of another in any manner. Instead, he will have the patience of God in dealing with others; he will use his gratitude to God as the strength with which to comfort others; his praise for God will be the wealth he will share with others; and his total trust in God will be his own wealth, contentment, and security. He will consider anything that does not exist as the quality of God (known in Islam as Allah's ninety-nine names or powers) as forbidden, or evil. Only that which exists within those divine qualities is permissible, or good. These attributes of the grace of God are the law of the Qur'an. These divine attributes are the law within the heart of one who has true faith, certitude, and determination and is truly Islam. The capture of other lives and attacks against other countries are not the law.

Muhammad, the Messenger of God, did not keep anything other than God. From the time of his appearance until the time he departed, the only wealth the Messenger of God displayed and the only power he showed was the wealth and the power of God's qualities of compassion and grace.

Children of any religion who have true faith must realize that God is the only One who knows all of everything. Therefore, only God can judge whether a person has faith, certitude, and determination or not and whether a person lives with that purity that can be called Islam or not. No one else can give that judgment. Do not wave your religion like a banner and go out to capture others. Only one kind of war is permissible in the eyes of God: the war you wage within yourself to defeat the demonic forces of lust, anger, jealousy, desire for revenge, and other evil feelings and attributes that may exist within your heart. God has sent each of the prophets as witnesses to the grace of God and as supports to help us in this inner war. This is the reason for the Qur'an. It is to help the true Muslim fight this inner battle and win victory over his own base desire's that God sent the Messenger with the Qur'an.

We must use the wisdom contained within the Qur'an to spank our own naughty minds and defeat our own compulsive desires. If we do that, what is called Islam will taste like honey. What we do now by battling in the world and calling it Islam tastes bitter and covers the light of the Qur'an in darkness. The light of Islam should reveal the essence of God in every life. If we see that essence, then we will live in unity; we will eat from the same plate; we will live as one family whether some are in a church, some are in a mosque, or some are in their homes. The beggar and the king will be able to pray together. We will discover our own faults, discard our own anger, and embrace one another with love. That is what the Qur'an says. That is why we cannot tell lies, indulge in treachery, or threaten to kill other lives and claim that it is being done in the name of Islam.

Islam teaches that we must recognize and praise the essence of God as it exists in each and every life. Consider this explanation of the truth that is in the Qur'an: If you take a tiny atom and split it into ten million particles and take one of these particles and examine it with that true wisdom found within Islam, you will see within that tiny particle ninety-nine particles revolving around one another without touching. (The ninety-nine are those qualities of God's grace that are known as the names, or powers, of God.) If you take one of those ninety-nine particles and split it into five million particles and examine one of those pieces with that wisdom, again you will see ninety-nine-ninety-nine revolving around one another without touching. And if you take any one of those particles and split it into one million pieces and examine one piece, again you will see the ninety-nine particles revolving around one another. If you take one of those and split it into five hundred thousand pieces and take one of those particles and split it into two hundred and fifty thousand pieces and take one of those and split it into one hundred thousand pieces and then one of those into ten thousand pieces and one of those into another thousand pieces and if you take one of those infinitesimal particles and look within it with that wisdom, you will see ninety-nine: His ninety-nine divine powers.

Every particle of every atom contains the power of Allah, the divine power of God. We who are Islam must realize this. If we reflect on this, anyone who calls himself Islam will never harm anyone. He will not wreak revenge. He will not be treacherous toward anyone. Islam must realize this. Everyone who has faith in God must realize this.

All children of God, leave behind all lustful desires and come to the plenitude of firm faith in God. Give up anger and come to the house of patience. Give up the tendency toward vengeance and treachery and come into the house of contentment with God's wealth of grace. Give up the hell caused by your attachment to the world and come into the love of God that is His grace.

Only when you incorporate His ninety-nine compassionate powers as the basis for your actions and as the law for your life can you discover even one atom-one tiny particle-of God's mercy and compassion. In the name of God, the Most Merciful and Most Compassionate. May all praise and praising be to God alone, and may we have His peace in our hearts. Amen.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Moonster said:
"M: Great. Good luck, and any time. I don't consider the Taliban to be religious or spiritual. I see them as fanatical deluded fools whose patriarchal privilege is threatened by the modern world and who will either evolve and grow up or be exterminated."

I see the Taliban as both religious and spiritual. I see them just like I saw the Inquisition or the Crusades or any group who condemn on earth in God's name.
These Taliban folks just like all the rest use the Notion of God's demands and rewards and to me that is religion. Al Q telling folks to wash up for the virgins are before you... or that women are the cause of man's suffering. They have faith in their way to God and that is spiritual. It may even be their truth. It ain't mine but it does sound like burning witches and branding heretics of our Holy Catholic Church of yesterday year to me.

Of course you are right and that is exactly why religious ideas (i don't say spiritual for a reason) are so dangerous. The religious ideas give a promise of an afterlife, that what you do in this life, even if it kills you, is going to get you rewarded in the afterlife.

That is the huge difference between religious ideas and other (including spiritual) ideas and that is why religion is like greed. It's about you, what you will have to do to obtain it.

Of course i am not going to say that all religious ideas or people are evil, while i may think they are believing in something for no reason it's not up to me to tell them they are wrong (even if i might do so at times just for the heck of it) but everyone should realise that the idea that the actions and consequenses of this life are of no value since you'll get rewarded in the next puts you outside the normal societies ideas of being good to others for no reason but because you have empathy.

Hmmm, in every post i seem to write i start off with what i am going to say and then i just continue to ramble... sorry about that LunarRay.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The True Meaning of Islam

by M.R. Bawa Muhaiyaddeen

In the name of Allah, Most Merciful, Most Compassionate.
In the name of God, the Most Merciful and Most Compassionate. May all praise be for God alone. May we give the entire responsibility for our lives to that one God who is limitless grace and incomparable love. May the peace of God and all His blessings fill the lives of all who may read this message.

To all who say they believe in God, please realize with your faith that God hears every word you say. God hears your every thought. Realizing this, speak only what is truth and act only with God's qualities of love, compassion, justice, patience, and the realization that each life is as important as your own. This is the true message within the Qur'an. The Qur'an does not cause divisions among God's children. It exists to bring about brotherhood and unity. The Qur'an soothes those who weep in sorrow and gives comfort to those who suffer. To those who may be poor, it explains the bounteous wealth of God. It inspires faith in those who may not have believed in God and helps them reach a state of reverence for God.

Do not wave the words of the Qur'an as though they were a banner you were going to carry into battle. Do not say, "The Qur'an says this and the Qur'an says that," without truly understanding the inner wisdom of God's qualities within your own life. If one has faith, certitude, and determination, he will see the seed of that purity that is Islam within everything. He will see the power of Allah in every creation. Therefore, he will not discriminate against another creation or discard him.

Anyone who has the purity of Islam and that true faith, certitude, and determination within his heart cannot hurt the heart of another in any manner. Instead, he will have the patience of God in dealing with others; he will use his gratitude to God as the strength with which to comfort others; his praise for God will be the wealth he will share with others; and his total trust in God will be his own wealth, contentment, and security. He will consider anything that does not exist as the quality of God (known in Islam as Allah's ninety-nine names or powers) as forbidden, or evil. Only that which exists within those divine qualities is permissible, or good. These attributes of the grace of God are the law of the Qur'an. These divine attributes are the law within the heart of one who has true faith, certitude, and determination and is truly Islam. The capture of other lives and attacks against other countries are not the law.

Muhammad, the Messenger of God, did not keep anything other than God. From the time of his appearance until the time he departed, the only wealth the Messenger of God displayed and the only power he showed was the wealth and the power of God's qualities of compassion and grace.

Children of any religion who have true faith must realize that God is the only One who knows all of everything. Therefore, only God can judge whether a person has faith, certitude, and determination or not and whether a person lives with that purity that can be called Islam or not. No one else can give that judgment. Do not wave your religion like a banner and go out to capture others. Only one kind of war is permissible in the eyes of God: the war you wage within yourself to defeat the demonic forces of lust, anger, jealousy, desire for revenge, and other evil feelings and attributes that may exist within your heart. God has sent each of the prophets as witnesses to the grace of God and as supports to help us in this inner war. This is the reason for the Qur'an. It is to help the true Muslim fight this inner battle and win victory over his own base desire's that God sent the Messenger with the Qur'an.

We must use the wisdom contained within the Qur'an to spank our own naughty minds and defeat our own compulsive desires. If we do that, what is called Islam will taste like honey. What we do now by battling in the world and calling it Islam tastes bitter and covers the light of the Qur'an in darkness. The light of Islam should reveal the essence of God in every life. If we see that essence, then we will live in unity; we will eat from the same plate; we will live as one family whether some are in a church, some are in a mosque, or some are in their homes. The beggar and the king will be able to pray together. We will discover our own faults, discard our own anger, and embrace one another with love. That is what the Qur'an says. That is why we cannot tell lies, indulge in treachery, or threaten to kill other lives and claim that it is being done in the name of Islam.

Islam teaches that we must recognize and praise the essence of God as it exists in each and every life. Consider this explanation of the truth that is in the Qur'an: If you take a tiny atom and split it into ten million particles and take one of these particles and examine it with that true wisdom found within Islam, you will see within that tiny particle ninety-nine particles revolving around one another without touching. (The ninety-nine are those qualities of God's grace that are known as the names, or powers, of God.) If you take one of those ninety-nine particles and split it into five million particles and examine one of those pieces with that wisdom, again you will see ninety-nine-ninety-nine revolving around one another without touching. And if you take any one of those particles and split it into one million pieces and examine one piece, again you will see the ninety-nine particles revolving around one another. If you take one of those and split it into five hundred thousand pieces and take one of those particles and split it into two hundred and fifty thousand pieces and take one of those and split it into one hundred thousand pieces and then one of those into ten thousand pieces and one of those into another thousand pieces and if you take one of those infinitesimal particles and look within it with that wisdom, you will see ninety-nine: His ninety-nine divine powers.

Every particle of every atom contains the power of Allah, the divine power of God. We who are Islam must realize this. If we reflect on this, anyone who calls himself Islam will never harm anyone. He will not wreak revenge. He will not be treacherous toward anyone. Islam must realize this. Everyone who has faith in God must realize this.

All children of God, leave behind all lustful desires and come to the plenitude of firm faith in God. Give up anger and come to the house of patience. Give up the tendency toward vengeance and treachery and come into the house of contentment with God's wealth of grace. Give up the hell caused by your attachment to the world and come into the love of God that is His grace.

Only when you incorporate His ninety-nine compassionate powers as the basis for your actions and as the law for your life can you discover even one atom-one tiny particle-of God's mercy and compassion. In the name of God, the Most Merciful and Most Compassionate. May all praise and praising be to God alone, and may we have His peace in our hearts. Amen.

I think we all understand that it's not the religion or it's general message that makes people into terrorists but leaders using the religion do.

That goes for all religions, you can find excuses in anything if you're evil enough and need justification for being as such.

 

[LunarRay]

Moonbeam, you indicate often that we humans are the same with only minor differences. This would be true in a general sense but we have differences in the way our minds operate. I think it is obvious that if you picture a normal bell curve you find deviation goes right and left from the mean. If you assume left is left brain 'control' and right is right brain 'control' it is sort of easy to understand where the pianist and the poet sit. I think it is true for the Scientist and the Priest as well. Everyone sits somewhere and most within that one standard deviation either way. That difference can be profound. I think.

You mention chimps. I've a friend, Elaine Muchmore, who is an MD and scientist at UCSD (A Professor of Medicine) She has sought to understand chimps and moonbeams. Despite my insistence that Moonbeam and Chimps have exactly the same everything She finds that although the brains are 99% the same they function differently in the way the proteins and other stuff do their jobs. Unpublished at this time (and perhaps a guess) is the notion that this occurs within the humans and chimp species as well but to a lesser degree. Seems to do with evolution. And, as the chimps continue to evolve with in their species the human does as well... My contention is that the human evolves (mommy/daddy DNA) away from the mean and toward the right or left.
I'm not a genetic scientist and maybe a just an extremely simple phenomenologist whose method of inquiry is based on the premise that reality consists of objects and events as they are perceived or understood in human consciousness and not of anything independent of human consciousness which points to or at least defines my reasons for Atheist and Theist differences. I see change over time in not only religion but other aspects of human (and to some extent Moonbeam) consciousness.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Moonster said:
"M: Great. Good luck, and any time. I don't consider the Taliban to be religious or spiritual. I see them as fanatical deluded fools whose patriarchal privilege is threatened by the modern world and who will either evolve and grow up or be exterminated."

I see the Taliban as both religious and spiritual. I see them just like I saw the Inquisition or the Crusades or any group who condemn on earth in God's name.
These Taliban folks just like all the rest use the Notion of God's demands and rewards and to me that is religion. Al Q telling folks to wash up for the virgins are before you... or that women are the cause of man's suffering. They have faith in their way to God and that is spiritual. It may even be their truth. It ain't mine but it does sound like burning witches and branding heretics of our Holy Catholic Church of yesterday year to me.

Of course you are right and that is exactly why religious ideas (i don't say spiritual for a reason) are so dangerous. The religious ideas give a promise of an afterlife, that what you do in this life, even if it kills you, is going to get you rewarded in the afterlife.

That is the huge difference between religious ideas and other (including spiritual) ideas and that is why religion is like greed. It's about you, what you will have to do to obtain it.

Of course i am not going to say that all religious ideas or people are evil, while i may think they are believing in something for no reason it's not up to me to tell them they are wrong (even if i might do so at times just for the heck of it) but everyone should realise that the idea that the actions and consequenses of this life are of no value since you'll get rewarded in the next puts you outside the normal societies ideas of being good to others for no reason but because you have empathy.

Hmmm, in every post i seem to write i start off with what i am going to say and then i just continue to ramble... sorry about that LunarRay.

I don't see any rambling at all... Just enough words to convey the thought.

I'm a rather simple thinker regarding God. I think my relationship with God is mine and mine alone. Not subject to any outside anything. How I am in society is mainly based on what I see is right to do. I don't link God with Society. My deeds or absence of them on Earth has to do with Earth and who I am as a person. IOW, you'd not know what my relationship/faith is from my deeds although you could guess, perhaps. I have faith that Jesus is God and the ticket to eternal life is vested in that direct relationship. I sorta keep it simple just like it is written that he did. I know others have faith too but their's is for them. In fact, If I was the only person on the planet thinking the way I do it would matter not one bit. I think Faith is best held close to the heart. It should win no wars nor garner earthly riches. It is not of this world.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Moonster said:
"M: Great. Good luck, and any time. I don't consider the Taliban to be religious or spiritual. I see them as fanatical deluded fools whose patriarchal privilege is threatened by the modern world and who will either evolve and grow up or be exterminated."

I see the Taliban as both religious and spiritual. I see them just like I saw the Inquisition or the Crusades or any group who condemn on earth in God's name.
These Taliban folks just like all the rest use the Notion of God's demands and rewards and to me that is religion. Al Q telling folks to wash up for the virgins are before you... or that women are the cause of man's suffering. They have faith in their way to God and that is spiritual. It may even be their truth. It ain't mine but it does sound like burning witches and branding heretics of our Holy Catholic Church of yesterday year to me.

Of course you are right and that is exactly why religious ideas (i don't say spiritual for a reason) are so dangerous. The religious ideas give a promise of an afterlife, that what you do in this life, even if it kills you, is going to get you rewarded in the afterlife.

That is the huge difference between religious ideas and other (including spiritual) ideas and that is why religion is like greed. It's about you, what you will have to do to obtain it.

Of course i am not going to say that all religious ideas or people are evil, while i may think they are believing in something for no reason it's not up to me to tell them they are wrong (even if i might do so at times just for the heck of it) but everyone should realise that the idea that the actions and consequenses of this life are of no value since you'll get rewarded in the next puts you outside the normal societies ideas of being good to others for no reason but because you have empathy.

Hmmm, in every post i seem to write i start off with what i am going to say and then i just continue to ramble... sorry about that LunarRay.

I don't see any rambling at all... Just enough words to convey the thought.

I'm a rather simple thinker regarding God. I think my relationship with God is mine and mine alone. Not subject to any outside anything. How I am in society is mainly based on what I see is right to do. I don't link God with Society. My deeds or absence of them on Earth has to do with Earth and who I am as a person. IOW, you'd not know what my relationship/faith is from my deeds although you could guess, perhaps. I have faith that Jesus is God and the ticket to eternal life is vested in that direct relationship. I sorta keep it simple just like it is written that he did. I know others have faith too but their's is for them. In fact, If I was the only person on the planet thinking the way I do it would matter not one bit. I think Faith is best held close to the heart. It should win no wars nor garner earthly riches. It is not of this world.

I respect that incredibly much, you're your own man, what you think goes for you and you realise that it's for you, it's personal.

Me, i have trust in some things and that is probably as close as i'll ever get. I make no statements about anything else, to say that there is no god is daft, even as an atheist i can't say that there is no god without being daft, but for you there is God and i don't mind that one bit because that is for you alone and you will not find me contradicting you.

I lack belief in a higher power, that is the only statement i'll ever make and until i see evidence (beyond peyote which was kinda nice but not really convincing since no religion depicts god as a huge cat) for one. It's the way i'm wired in my head.

All that said, if your belief helps you i am glad you have it.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I have an Idea lets look at what Consciousness has taught us .

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
1. Do not worship other gods. Simple enough . I assume these means Christ Also and Moses and Moho.
2. Do not worship idols. That easy . or is it ? I can see why people reject good . Money worshippers/ House . Boat / Race Cars/ Computers. Ya This one is hard on us.
3. Do not misuse God's name. Pretty easy Since most use the word god . But some are foolish and say a name that I don't know. I would like to see it written in scriptures without all the BS.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.. Is this a man day. or a GOD day. Since its a GOD Holy day very unlikely to be a day in the week . But a moment in time. Were All is Fulfilled.
5. Honor your father & mother. This is a joke as we pack mom and dad into rest homes . Shameful bunch we are. Because making $$ is Higher than the Love that gave you Life . Sad Sad bunch. No wonder we reject the idea of GOD.
6. Do not murder. Anything other than without intent is MURDER. NO if and or BUTs . Again no wonder we deny the trueth wgich is Gods everlasting love.
7. Do not commit adultery. This ones to funny to talk about . I am seeing a pattern tho.
8. Do not steal. This ones a bigger Joke. The pattern continues.
9. Do not lie. This ONe I love it . LOL . The pattern is about complete. Man NEEDS to reject GOD because he cann't bear the weight of his lies.
10. Do not covet.
Any one who tries to do the above in earnest gets my respect keep trying. You have no fear of the Great Majority Coveting Your works they want no part of the 10 laws because they fail all.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

I don't see any rambling at all... Just enough words to convey the thought.

I'm a rather simple thinker regarding God. I think my relationship with God is mine and mine alone. Not subject to any outside anything. How I am in society is mainly based on what I see is right to do. I don't link God with Society. My deeds or absence of them on Earth has to do with Earth and who I am as a person. IOW, you'd not know what my relationship/faith is from my deeds although you could guess, perhaps. I have faith that Jesus is God and the ticket to eternal life is vested in that direct relationship. I sorta keep it simple just like it is written that he did. I know others have faith too but their's is for them. In fact, If I was the only person on the planet thinking the way I do it would matter not one bit. I think Faith is best held close to the heart. It should win no wars nor garner earthly riches. It is not of this world.

The problem is that if you substitute Jesus Christ and God with "Imaginary Friend" you end up with the same thing: a relationship with a construct within your own mind. You have made a psychic connection with.....yourself! As for that ticket to eternal life... yet another creation of the imagination of yourself and others. This is why I see religion as being quite sad. It's an adult version of imaginary friends and make believe.

 

[Moonbeam]

D: The problem is that if you substitute Jesus Christ and God with "Imaginary Friend" you end up with the same thing: a relationship with a construct within your own mind.

M: Of course, but what you miss here is that of all the imaginary friends one can imagine and they are surely endless, he has chosen for his own the very best imaginary friend one can have, no?....a Supreme Being of infinite love and compassion who will care for him for eternity.

D: You have made a psychic connection with.....yourself!

M: He has indeed, the part of him that connects to God within him.

D: As for that ticket to eternal life... yet another creation of the imagination of yourself and others.

M: Yup and all the placebo effect that adheres to such belief, like better health, longer life, a sense of purpose and meaning, a sense that love suffuses the universe, etc.

D: This is why I see religion as being quite sad.

M: I'm with you on that, sad but of course for me because I don't believe like that.

D: It's an adult version of imaginary friends and make believe.

M: Yes, and as we know those things are the special providence of gifted children. I think they made a movie about fools like him, called Harvey. Of course, LR's Pooka is only 6 feet tall, buy exactly and like no other.

 

[Moonbeam]

Imaginary friends help children learn
3. June 2009 05:12


Australian researchers say having an imaginary friend can help a child learn.
According psychologist, Dr. Evan Kidd at Melbourne's La Trobe University, children with imaginary friends are better at learning to communicate than other children because they have a lot of practice at inventing interactions with their friends, which helps them improve their conversational skills.

Dr. Kidd and his colleague Anna Roby explored the hidden world of imaginary companions in a study which involved 44 children, 22 of which had imaginary friends in an attempt to understand the benefits.

The study found that the 22 children who had imaginary friends were better able to get their point across than were children of the same age who did not have an imaginary friend - Dr. Kidd says these children are in charge of both sides of the conversation so have a lot of practice at inventing interactions between their imaginary friends and themselves and this is what facilitates the development of their conversational skills.

The researchers also discovered that children with an invisible friend or personified toy had a better social understanding, were generally first born or only children and were very creative.

Dr. Kidd says all the children with imaginary friends were very creative and treated these imaginary 'friends' as real, played with them throughout the day and referred to them in conversation - one child reported having a companion named Sarah, who had a pet dragon while another enjoyed a friendship with an imaginary family, Mr and Mrs Driller who had two children - another child had an imaginary tomato called 'Bodder' and a potato called 'Bun.

Dr. Kidd says the phenomenon of the imaginary friend is really misunderstood and people think it is rare and a concern but past studies have shown that around 65% of children aged between three and nine, had imaginary friends and the characters, rather than due to some internal malaise, appear to be an essential component of normal development.

Dr. Kidd has established in his research that the benefits of imaginary companions are long lasting - a study of university students showed that those who recalled having an imaginary companion in childhood were more creative, more achievement oriented, and more emotionally responsive than students who didn't have one.

However, there was no difference between any of the 44 children when it came to listening skills.

Dr. Kidd is a Research Fellow at La Trobe's School of Psychological Sciences.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Moonbeam, you indicate often that we humans are the same with only minor differences.

This would be true in a general sense but we have differences in the way our minds operate.

Minor?

I beg to differ.

Just posts in here clearly shows the major differences in how there are pea brains Vs real brains.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: LunarRay

I don't see any rambling at all... Just enough words to convey the thought.

I'm a rather simple thinker regarding God. I think my relationship with God is mine and mine alone. Not subject to any outside anything. How I am in society is mainly based on what I see is right to do. I don't link God with Society. My deeds or absence of them on Earth has to do with Earth and who I am as a person. IOW, you'd not know what my relationship/faith is from my deeds although you could guess, perhaps. I have faith that Jesus is God and the ticket to eternal life is vested in that direct relationship. I sorta keep it simple just like it is written that he did. I know others have faith too but their's is for them. In fact, If I was the only person on the planet thinking the way I do it would matter not one bit. I think Faith is best held close to the heart. It should win no wars nor garner earthly riches. It is not of this world.

The problem is that if you substitute Jesus Christ and God with "Imaginary Friend" you end up with the same thing: a relationship with a construct within your own mind. You have made a psychic connection with.....yourself! As for that ticket to eternal life... yet another creation of the imagination of yourself and others. This is why I see religion as being quite sad. It's an adult version of imaginary friends and make believe.

Yes indeed, it is in my mind where I do my thinking and I can substitute words in which ever way I'd want. I think, though, that faith allows for a more focused and myopic view.
Yeah... I sorta like that notion... My imaginary (can't really touch, see, etc. God) Friend is God... All righty then.. I used to say "All my Friend"... now I can be like lots of others and say "Friends".
You look at religion and I shun it. If I wanted to round up a bag of hypocrites I know where some congregate.