On Atheism vs. Christianity

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Two people about their life come upon a conversation between a rather old guy and a rather young one who, they noticed, had just come out from a nearby house... The conversation sort of went like this... The Young fellow said; "Master, I have been trying to help you locate your keys inside the house in the darkness of the cellar where you said you lost them... but, I find you out here under this street light on your knees looking.... why are you here and not in the cellar?" The old guy looked up... and said to the younger one; "I am looking here, under this light, because here I can see..."

Yup, that was Mulla Masrudin on a day when he didn't have a rope and his donkey was lame.

I love lingering in the light you two bring. Here, I can see.

Thanks, LR is a torch to my candle. I like to explore how people see things and share ideas.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: shira

Man is interested in God because a purposeless existence, ending in annihilation, is too horrible for most people to contemplate.

The belief in God is a coping mechanism.

Reading the above, I find this ironic:

Originally posted by: shira

The clearest, most convincing argument I can provide you with that your reasoning is totally false is:

I absolutely don't believe in God. I absolutely believe that existence has no "purpose" or "meaning" whatsoever. I absolutely believe that when I die, nothing physical and nothing spiritual will remain of me. Nothing.

Yet I enjoy my life, and want to live as full and enjoyable life as I can.

What possible response can you have to this information, other than to realize that your assumptions are completely incorrect?

Perhaps you'd find the second-quoted post less ironic if you understood that "most people" (used in the first-quoted post) doesn't mean "everyone." I am not "most people." Atheists are a distinct minority.

No, it is all the same b/c you are making assumptions as to why some people believe the way they do, and yet telling someone not to make assumptions about how your belief system should or does impact your life.

And you do make the absolute statement: "The belief in God is a coping mechanism."

Nonsense. I'm not making an assumption at all. I'm just listening to what the believers say. Please, just LISTEN to them. They ask how anyone could bear a universe without God or purpose. Skoorb is so wrapped up in this need that he cannot imagine how anyone who does NOT believe could possibly go on.

When I was a younger man, I NEEDED God to make sense of what I experienced. My suffering just HAD to have some purpose. I wanted to believe that my life was following some pre-determined path that was leading to a better place.

But as I matured, I realized that those thoughts playing in my head were just an extension of the need for Santa Claus. I discarded my fantasies and came to accept that life is what it is and I am very much alone, headed for death an oblivion. Not a happy thought, but liberating.

I can agree with you if people actually believed in God b/c He gives them purpose. That is different then believing in God firstly, and purpose coming as a result. It would be quite pathetic to believe in God just to find meaning. I do not think that this is what people are saying though.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Two people about their life come upon a conversation between a rather old guy and a rather young one who, they noticed, had just come out from a nearby house... The conversation sort of went like this... The Young fellow said; "Master, I have been trying to help you locate your keys inside the house in the darkness of the cellar where you said you lost them... but, I find you out here under this street light on your knees looking.... why are you here and not in the cellar?" The old guy looked up... and said to the younger one; "I am looking here, under this light, because here I can see..."

Yup, that was Mulla Masrudin on a day when he didn't have a rope and his donkey was lame.

I love lingering in the light you two bring. Here, I can see.

Thanks, LR is a torch to my candle. I like to explore how people see things and share ideas.

You forget, Moonbeam... I was reading your posts for a couple years before I even posted my first post... I have not the capacity to illuminate... I can barely find the match to light my cigarette... But, thanks for that comment, Perknose... you are way too kind..

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Two people about their life come upon a conversation between a rather old guy and a rather young one who, they noticed, had just come out from a nearby house... The conversation sort of went like this... The Young fellow said; "Master, I have been trying to help you locate your keys inside the house in the darkness of the cellar where you said you lost them... but, I find you out here under this street light on your knees looking.... why are you here and not in the cellar?" The old guy looked up... and said to the younger one; "I am looking here, under this light, because here I can see..."

Yup, that was Mulla Masrudin on a day when he didn't have a rope and his donkey was lame.

Earlier, I wrote a bit about 'Time'... I mentioned a Jury... and left open their decision.

It turned out that jury were Christians who were by profession Scientists... During their discussions on the case of the People v Time they did all manner of calculations and concluded that Time was not an essential factor... there was no proof that time existed... so they found against time on that basis... They used their own deductive process. One that they were confident would lead to the correct verdit... They were confident, therefore, in the verdict they rendered.. At the same time they were equally confident that God existed again using their own deductive process. Different in nature to the issue of Time but giving them the same confidence that God existed...
When asked how on earth can you say God exists? ... You can't point to one single equation or tangible fact or proof... They each responded, in harmony... "You determine the existence of Time and God in the mind but using a different approach... As in all things you must learn the approach before you can accept the proof..."

Sadly for me I grew up among barbarians who knew nothing of God or an approach or what one would be. I got no foundation and my castle was built on sand.

I remember reading I think that same Sufi I quoted above who said that religion is a bridge to reality and that many many more cross via a bridge than crawl across through the chasm. My bridge blew up half constructed and it was quite a fall. I think the only thing that saved me was that I fell on shira.

 

[ZeGermans]

The most hilarious justification was Aquinas'. Ockham was rolling in his grave from that one.

 

[JSt0rm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-7vjxwDaYo

 

[railer]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda






you added what to this thread??

or are you incapable of voiceing an opinion other than....you have to be kidding me?

Everybody believes in something whether they wish to admit it or not.....notice I used the word "something"....

Sadly, you missed the point. What people choose to believe, or not believe, is of no concern to me, no matter how ridiculous I may think it is.
What I do find amusing, and what (I think quite obviously) was referencing with my "are you kidding?" comment is the opinion of skoorb, which is apparently that people who are not superstitious, and do not believe in werewolves, ghosts, vampires, jesus, etc, are somehow more akin to cattle or bees than people who "believe".

It is absurd to me that someone who may live an empty life but is a slave to the fiction of ancient sheepherders, is somehow enlightened vs. a person who lives a rich and full life, but has the good sense to tell fact from fiction. That was the point that you missed. Now carry on with your fairly tales if it makes you sleep better at night, but all thinking people know who the real empty shells are.

 

[babylon5]

Originally posted by: railer

Sadly, you missed the point. What people choose to believe, or not believe, is of no concern to me, no matter how ridiculous I may think it is.
What I do find amusing, and what (I think quite obviously) was referencing with my "are you kidding?" comment is the opinion of skoorb, which is apparently that people who are not superstitious, and do not believe in werewolves, ghosts, vampires, jesus, etc, are somehow more akin to cattle or bees than people who "believe".

It is absurd to me that someone who may live an empty life but is a slave to the fiction of ancient sheepherders, is somehow enlightened vs. a person who lives a rich and full life, but has the good sense to tell fact from fiction. That was the point that you missed. Now carry on with your fairly tales if it makes you sleep better at night, but all thinking people know who the real empty shells are.

:thumbsup:

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Two people about their life come upon a conversation between a rather old guy and a rather young one who, they noticed, had just come out from a nearby house... The conversation sort of went like this... The Young fellow said; "Master, I have been trying to help you locate your keys inside the house in the darkness of the cellar where you said you lost them... but, I find you out here under this street light on your knees looking.... why are you here and not in the cellar?" The old guy looked up... and said to the younger one; "I am looking here, under this light, because here I can see..."

Yup, that was Mulla Masrudin on a day when he didn't have a rope and his donkey was lame.

Earlier, I wrote a bit about 'Time'... I mentioned a Jury... and left open their decision.

It turned out that jury were Christians who were by profession Scientists... During their discussions on the case of the People v Time they did all manner of calculations and concluded that Time was not an essential factor... there was no proof that time existed... so they found against time on that basis... They used their own deductive process. One that they were confident would lead to the correct verdit... They were confident, therefore, in the verdict they rendered.. At the same time they were equally confident that God existed again using their own deductive process. Different in nature to the issue of Time but giving them the same confidence that God existed...
When asked how on earth can you say God exists? ... You can't point to one single equation or tangible fact or proof... They each responded, in harmony... "You determine the existence of Time and God in the mind but using a different approach... As in all things you must learn the approach before you can accept the proof..."

Sadly for me I grew up among barbarians who knew nothing of God or an approach or what one would be. I got no foundation and my castle was built on sand.

If you tie a rope to a baby elephant's leg and secure it to a stake adjacent as the baby elephant pulls and tugs it learns it cannot be free when it has this rope attached... When it grows up it will stay put when ever a rope is attached.... It is then secured by the mind.

I've often wrestled with the issue of why don't everyone need reality - what ever that is - and I concluded they do... But then I pondered why is it that each reach for and find a somewhat different reality and conclude their's is universal and applicable to all others. Or at least ought to be.. What I concluded is that all reach for what they already know they want to find... Their God is what they want their God to be... a nothing or a something in some form or another. The atheist's God is a no god... A Christian's is Jesus and so on... Each seeking the reality they are predisposed to find. Their mind is what makes them rationalize as they do... Scientists tend to use a Scientific Method to deduce their reality and if that don't include God then they can't see mine.
The issue I continue to wrestle with is IF God IS God and has all these nifty eternal gifts promised to me will those who have no belief in my God miss out or is all of this individual in nature... Like the Pygmy in Aust might miss out cuz he don't know Jesus... I think not.. I think we each in some way follow what is right and wrong and to the extent we do we are true to ourselves... a youngster dies with out knowing Jesus... surely that child will be in paradise faster than I... No matter what, I feel there is God everywhere not concerned with anything more that that intangible bit we have called a soul. Those who accept Jesus have a different covenant... one that he apparently brought out of the carpentry shop.. and through him you get to heaven... I think no one misses out.
Nasrudin was asked when he thought the final judgment and end of the world was... He thought a bit and said... "when I die"..

I remember reading I think that same Sufi I quoted above who said that religion is a bridge to reality and that many many more cross via a bridge than crawl across through the chasm. My bridge blew up half constructed and it was quite a fall. I think the only thing that saved me was that I fell on shira.

No doubt after your intimacy with Shira you climbed up cliff to the side of your original intended direction and Shira up the cliff side of your beginnings... As you sat there pondering your misfortune and what could have been your demise you heard Shira call across to you "Hey, Moonbeam... how do I get to the other side"... to which you calmly responed... "you are on the other side"...

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: shira

Man is interested in God because a purposeless existence, ending in annihilation, is too horrible for most people to contemplate.

The belief in God is a coping mechanism.

Reading the above, I find this ironic:

Originally posted by: shira

The clearest, most convincing argument I can provide you with that your reasoning is totally false is:

I absolutely don't believe in God. I absolutely believe that existence has no "purpose" or "meaning" whatsoever. I absolutely believe that when I die, nothing physical and nothing spiritual will remain of me. Nothing.

Yet I enjoy my life, and want to live as full and enjoyable life as I can.

What possible response can you have to this information, other than to realize that your assumptions are completely incorrect?

Perhaps you'd find the second-quoted post less ironic if you understood that "most people" (used in the first-quoted post) doesn't mean "everyone." I am not "most people." Atheists are a distinct minority.

No, it is all the same b/c you are making assumptions as to why some people believe the way they do, and yet telling someone not to make assumptions about how your belief system should or does impact your life.

And you do make the absolute statement: "The belief in God is a coping mechanism."

Nonsense. I'm not making an assumption at all. I'm just listening to what the believers say. Please, just LISTEN to them. They ask how anyone could bear a universe without God or purpose. Skoorb is so wrapped up in this need that he cannot imagine how anyone who does NOT believe could possibly go on.

When I was a younger man, I NEEDED God to make sense of what I experienced. My suffering just HAD to have some purpose. I wanted to believe that my life was following some pre-determined path that was leading to a better place.

But as I matured, I realized that those thoughts playing in my head were just an extension of the need for Santa Claus. I discarded my fantasies and came to accept that life is what it is and I am very much alone, headed for death an oblivion. Not a happy thought, but liberating.

Strange. You and I have had the opposite experiences in life. What makes your version, right? And no, I havent had a sheltered life.

You do not say enough to make clear what your version is. What is your opposite experience? I ask our of interest.

I grew up in a Christian household, and when I moved out I decided all the same blah blah blah athiests think...God is a crutch...Christians are weak...you know the arguments. I lived the next decade or so in a very secular way. Meanwhile, I started wondering maybe all Gods are the same, etc so I spent the better part of 5 years on a personal sojourn if you will. My goal was to settle once and for all God didnt exist, and the Bible was simply fiction. I didnt do so by looking for ways to disprove Him, but rather BOTH sides of the argument. Afterall, if you believe celery will cure cancer, you could probably convince yourself of it, apart from all the other evidence. At the end of my 5 years it was very clear to me I was wrong. I returned to faith I was raised on. Since then, I havent looked back or doubted my faith-ever.

I have many stories I could share about the occults from around the world, different religions, alter experiences, demonic activity, and the like. Maybe some other time in another thread. But I am as much a sceptic as anyone, and once I did the very thing athiest say believers need to do - open your mind and dont assume anything - I found the truth.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: railer

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda






you added what to this thread??

or are you incapable of voiceing an opinion other than....you have to be kidding me?

Everybody believes in something whether they wish to admit it or not.....notice I used the word "something"....

Sadly, you missed the point. What people choose to believe, or not believe, is of no concern to me, no matter how ridiculous I may think it is.
What I do find amusing, and what (I think quite obviously) was referencing with my "are you kidding?" comment is the opinion of skoorb, which is apparently that people who are not superstitious, and do not believe in werewolves, ghosts, vampires, jesus, etc, are somehow more akin to cattle or bees than people who "believe".

It is absurd to me that someone who may live an empty life but is a slave to the fiction of ancient sheepherders, is somehow enlightened vs. a person who lives a rich and full life, but has the good sense to tell fact from fiction. That was the point that you missed. Now carry on with your fairly tales if it makes you sleep better at night, but all thinking people know who the real empty shells are.

And your fatal flaw is that these two scenarios are not mutually exclusive, and often, if not mostly, are opposite from your perception.

 

[Moonbeam]

s: Hah! You can't pour any tea into my cup because your pot is empty.

M: Yup, completely full of no-tea.

You impute ego-based motive to my beliefs ("pride in my own courage in the face of oblivion"), and continually overlook the obvious: I see the universe as empty and without purpose, and I cannot help but believe what I see. I don't believe what I do because I NEED there to be only a void (I would much prefer to believe in a universe with a loving God), but I believe what I do because I have no choice. In fact, I feel sadness, not pride.

Ah, just like me. But do you ever wonder why you argue your case. Why would we want to preach that kind of bad news?

s: You don't know my needs at all, you just assume them because it's a convenient rhetorical device.

M: How could your needs be any different than mine, not, of course that I know what mine are?

s: Here's a simple question for you, which I'm certain you won't answer: Is it POSSIBLE that there is no God of any sort - either inside, outside, or any other way - and that the universe is without any ultimate purpose?

M: If you look back through the thread I think you will see that that is almost exactly what I believe.

s: Time for some more evasion, eh Moonie?

M: No just more questions:

You said in another post:

"When I was a younger man, I NEEDED God to make sense of what I experienced. My suffering just HAD to have some purpose. I wanted to believe that my life was following some pre-determined path that was leading to a better place."

Did you ever determine why?

"But as I matured, I realized that those thoughts playing in my head were just an extension of the need for Santa Claus. I discarded my fantasies and came to accept that life is what it is and I am very much alone, headed for death an oblivion. Not a happy thought, but liberating."

From what were you liberated?

 

[Moonbeam]

blackangst: "I grew up in a Christian household, and when I moved out I decided all the same blah blah blah athiests think...God is a crutch...Christians are weak...you know the arguments. I lived the next decade or so in a very secular way. Meanwhile, I started wondering maybe all Gods are the same, etc so I spent the better part of 5 years on a personal sojourn if you will. My goal was to settle once and for all God didnt exist, and the Bible was simply fiction. I didnt do so by looking for ways to disprove Him, but rather BOTH sides of the argument. Afterall, if you believe celery will cure cancer, you could probably convince yourself of it, apart from all the other evidence. At the end of my 5 years it was very clear to me I was wrong. I returned to faith I was raised on. Since then, I havent looked back or doubted my faith-ever.

I have many stories I could share about the occults from around the world, different religions, alter experiences, demonic activity, and the like. Maybe some other time in another thread. But I am as much a sceptic as anyone, and once I did the very thing athiest say believers need to do - open your mind and dont assume anything - I found the truth."

Good for you. Interesting.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Two people about their life come upon a conversation between a rather old guy and a rather young one who, they noticed, had just come out from a nearby house... The conversation sort of went like this... The Young fellow said; "Master, I have been trying to help you locate your keys inside the house in the darkness of the cellar where you said you lost them... but, I find you out here under this street light on your knees looking.... why are you here and not in the cellar?" The old guy looked up... and said to the younger one; "I am looking here, under this light, because here I can see..."

Yup, that was Mulla Masrudin on a day when he didn't have a rope and his donkey was lame.

Earlier, I wrote a bit about 'Time'... I mentioned a Jury... and left open their decision.

It turned out that jury were Christians who were by profession Scientists... During their discussions on the case of the People v Time they did all manner of calculations and concluded that Time was not an essential factor... there was no proof that time existed... so they found against time on that basis... They used their own deductive process. One that they were confident would lead to the correct verdit... They were confident, therefore, in the verdict they rendered.. At the same time they were equally confident that God existed again using their own deductive process. Different in nature to the issue of Time but giving them the same confidence that God existed...
When asked how on earth can you say God exists? ... You can't point to one single equation or tangible fact or proof... They each responded, in harmony... "You determine the existence of Time and God in the mind but using a different approach... As in all things you must learn the approach before you can accept the proof..."

Sadly for me I grew up among barbarians who knew nothing of God or an approach or what one would be. I got no foundation and my castle was built on sand.

If you tie a rope to a baby elephant's leg and secure it to a stake adjacent as the baby elephant pulls and tugs it learns it cannot be free when it has this rope attached... When it grows up it will stay put when ever a rope is attached.... It is then secured by the mind.

I've often wrestled with the issue of why don't everyone need reality - what ever that is - and I concluded they do... But then I pondered why is it that each reach for and find a somewhat different reality and conclude their's is universal and applicable to all others. Or at least ought to be.. What I concluded is that all reach for what they already know they want to find... Their God is what they want their God to be... a nothing or a something in some form or another. The atheist's God is a no god... A Christian's is Jesus and so on... Each seeking the reality they are predisposed to find. Their mind is what makes them rationalize as they do... Scientists tend to use a Scientific Method to deduce their reality and if that don't include God then they can't see mine.
The issue I continue to wrestle with is IF God IS God and has all these nifty eternal gifts promised to me will those who have no belief in my God miss out or is all of this individual in nature... Like the Pygmy in Aust might miss out cuz he don't know Jesus... I think not.. I think we each in some way follow what is right and wrong and to the extent we do we are true to ourselves... a youngster dies with out knowing Jesus... surely that child will be in paradise faster than I... No matter what, I feel there is God everywhere not concerned with anything more that that intangible bit we have called a soul. Those who accept Jesus have a different covenant... one that he apparently brought out of the carpentry shop.. and through him you get to heaven... I think no one misses out.
Nasrudin was asked when he thought the final judgment and end of the world was... He thought a bit and said... "when I die"..

I remember reading I think that same Sufi I quoted above who said that religion is a bridge to reality and that many many more cross via a bridge than crawl across through the chasm. My bridge blew up half constructed and it was quite a fall. I think the only thing that saved me was that I fell on shira.

No doubt after your intimacy with Shira you climbed up cliff to the side of your original intended direction and Shira up the cliff side of your beginnings... As you sat there pondering your misfortune and what could have been your demise you heard Shira call across to you "Hey, Moonbeam... how do I get to the other side"... to which you calmly responed... "you are on the other side"...

I often think I killed God because He was killing me.

 

[railer]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
And your fatal flaw is that these two scenarios are not mutually exclusive, and often, if not mostly, are opposite from your perception.

That's no flaw of mine. Whether one lives a rich and full existence has absolutely nothing to do with whether you worship jesus, thor, the hulk, or yourself. If you find strength in religion, or comic books for that matter, more power to you and have a rich and rewarding life.

Just don't fool yourself into thinking that your life is any richer or more meaningful than anyone else's, because you believe in the correct fairly tale and they don't.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: railer

Originally posted by: blackangst1
And your fatal flaw is that these two scenarios are not mutually exclusive, and often, if not mostly, are opposite from your perception.

That's no flaw of mine. Whether one lives a rich and full existence has absolutely nothing to do with whether you worship jesus, thor, the hulk, or yourself. If you find strength in religion, or comic books for that matter, more power to you and have a rich and rewarding life.

Just don't fool yourself into thinking that your life is any richer or more meaningful than anyone else's, because you believe in the correct fairly tale and they don't.

I agree, you believe in the correct fairy tale. We can run around shaking our fingers and stamping our feel.

 

[LunarRay]

Moonbeam said
"I often think I killed God because He was killing me."

In your mind you confuse the road with the objective... or the notion of someone else's God notion forced upon you... You and only you are you...

The approach to finding your God... belief as it were, may have been the result of the conditions you found yourself in as you begun the quest to find reality... you simply discarded someone else's notions and sought your own... I think that is human. To each the approach is different or very similar but it is based on lots of stuff that is totally individual... I think...

I'm quite at ease with my belief cuz it is mine...

 

[LunarRay]

something sorta funny just came to mind...

When I was seems like 12 or so... I was 'confirmed' Being a Catholic in a Catholic Academy this was the normal thing that happens... Maybe I was younger.. I can't remember.. anyhow, I was now a vessel of God's and that the Holy Spirit was in me... and of course, the Holy Spirit is God as Jesus is and God the Father is.. all God separate and apart... So there I was... God is in me.. I was feeling great... As I walked toward the groups of family and stuff of the kids I knew a Priest.. (think he was a Jesuit - all in black..) said to me... "Are you not going to pray to the Blessed Virgin?" I asked why for... and he said something like "The Blessed Mother (Mary) speaks to Jesus, her son, for us.."
Says I; "I have God in me... can't I just sorta chat with him a bit.. beings how he IS God after all and probably knows Jesus" ... (I was a wise ass even then).. After his temper cooled, I asked him just where in the testament does it direct us to pray to anyone but God - being the Trinity is God no need to seek one God over another if they are all him..." I was informed that some Pope said so.. and the Pope is infallable... A few years passed and I was in the senior year of my three years in high school when I bump into this same Jesuit... Who said to me that my comment way back when was determined by him to be a challenge to his faith and that he resolved it with many many hours of prayer... that I'd not won.. Guess he felt I was doing more than just being a wise ass...

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Moonbeam said
"I often think I killed God because He was killing me."

In your mind you confuse the road with the objective... or the notion of someone else's God notion forced upon you... You and only you are you...

The approach to finding your God... belief as it were, may have been the result of the conditions you found yourself in as you begun the quest to find reality... you simply discarded someone else's notions and sought your own... I think that is human. To each the approach is different or very similar but it is based on lots of stuff that is totally individual... I think...

I'm quite at ease with my belief cuz it is mine...

I think the place I came from was simply too dark to contain a faith when challenged by the pain I saw that darkness produce. The God question for me was a matter of life and death. I descended into a black cave on a rope that could not bear my weight. It just wouldn't go up in the sky. I tried to cross the abyss on a broken bridge. I wanted to bring along a million tons of cabbage. I wanted there to be meaning. I was the deaf arguing with the dumb instead of the blind man carrying a sighted man with no legs. Like an arrow shot too hastily from a bow, I didn't fly very far.

"When one door closes another may be opening."

"New organs of perception appear with need. Oh man, increase your need." Sufi sayings.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Skoorb

I am not an atheist.

I don't see how not being an atheist should prevent one from shooting oneself in the head. Especially since it is highly probable that an atheist would believe in permanent everlasting death, while a theist would probably believe in some ascension to heaven.

The point being, why not, it doesn't matter anyway, it's all just chemicals. A true atheist would never bother with life because it holds no meaning for them. When they are gone their family may cry but their family will die eventually and they will be forgotten and meaningless, as meaningless as an ant in a hill.

:roll: My Sarcasm Meter must be broken.

Nope, I'm serious. I see no intellectual harmony in a person who is sure that God doesn't exist and yet considers their life worthy of anything at all. It is no more worthy of existence than a rock or cattle--that's what their philosophy says by its very definition, if they are going to take it to its logical progression, which seems reasonable considering they in essence claim to worship logic.

Don't be obtuse, an atheist follows the same biological imperatives as everything else

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: railer

Originally posted by: blackangst1
And your fatal flaw is that these two scenarios are not mutually exclusive, and often, if not mostly, are opposite from your perception.

That's no flaw of mine. Whether one lives a rich and full existence has absolutely nothing to do with whether you worship jesus, thor, the hulk, or yourself. If you find strength in religion, or comic books for that matter, more power to you and have a rich and rewarding life.

Just don't fool yourself into thinking that your life is any richer or more meaningful than anyone else's, because you believe in the correct fairly tale and they don't.

Then it was a flaw in your posting. What you said was,

It is absurd to me that someone who may live an empty life but is a slave to the fiction of ancient sheepherders, is somehow enlightened vs. a person who lives a rich and full life, but has the good sense to tell fact from fiction.

somehow insinuating its either one or the other. Ive commented before about this, referring to Lamentations, which, in a nutshell, says the rain falls on the good and evil alike. Good things happen to bad people and vice versa. But the difference is twofold. First, the navigation of life itself. Why do non-believers mock believers for finding a source of peace and comfort, and why is that considered a crutch? Ive never understood this. Christians struggle just like everyone do. The difference is inside. Second is what happens after this life? Atheists and non believers often ask (as I have) what IF what we believe is wrong? WHAT IF! Well, if it is atheists believe, there is nothing, then what has really been lost? Anything? Believing =! lack of freedom. The believer has led a decent life, his faith has inspired him to become a better person, and he has found peace going through life's struggles. What is the harm in that? Seriously? But I ask atheists this: what if YOU are wrong? Then what? Sure you may have lived a decent life, served others, etc. But what if YOU are wrong? This life is p[pretty short in comparison to eternity. When judgment day comes are you going to argue with God? Deny His existence then? Just say "oops"? What if?

Look. I've Im not one to call others out on the interwebs about their faith or lack thereof (unless its a Christian based board) and Im not going to do it here. I believe my purpose in life is four fold: First, whenever possible, lead others to Christ. Second, live my personal life in accordance with God's word based on a balance of faith, grace, forgiveness, and integrity. Third, defend my faith whenever necessary. And lastly, hopefully give others the freedom to do the same, and to inspire thought and inner perspective. And thats all Im doing.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
But I ask atheists this: what if YOU are wrong? Then what? Sure you may have lived a decent life, served others, etc. But what if YOU are wrong? This life is p[pretty short in comparison to eternity. When judgment day comes are you going to argue with God? Deny His existence then? Just say "oops"? What if?

I am not an Atheist, but if God is such a bureaucrat, that instead of intelligently judging me based on my deeds, I am judged based upon which boxes are checked, the sooner I am consigned to oblivion, the better.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
... I believe my purpose in life is four fold: First, whenever possible, lead others to Christ. Second, live my personal life in accordance with God's word based on a balance of faith, grace, forgiveness, and integrity. Third, defend my faith whenever necessary. And lastly, hopefully give others the freedom to do the same, and to inspire thought and inner perspective. And thats all Im doing.

Interesting. I think this is the first time I've heard this plainly stated.

I imagine this is pretty personal for you, so I'll try to be respectful.

Do you see that your leader could be replaced by another? for example, a politician?

Are these guidelines that you've developed over time or is this commonly held and stated by others like you?

I would think your second item would be the first. Where and how do you get your god's word?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: blackangst1
But I ask atheists this: what if YOU are wrong? Then what? Sure you may have lived a decent life, served others, etc. But what if YOU are wrong? This life is p[pretty short in comparison to eternity. When judgment day comes are you going to argue with God? Deny His existence then? Just say "oops"? What if?

I am not an Atheist, but if God is such a bureaucrat, that instead of intelligently judging me based on my deeds, I am judged based upon which boxes are checked, the sooner I am consigned to oblivion, the better.

Ah, you have been lied to, or have not been told the truth. God does not judge on deeds, nor is He a bureaucrat. So whatever idea you have of God, is wrong.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: blackangst1
... I believe my purpose in life is four fold: First, whenever possible, lead others to Christ. Second, live my personal life in accordance with God's word based on a balance of faith, grace, forgiveness, and integrity. Third, defend my faith whenever necessary. And lastly, hopefully give others the freedom to do the same, and to inspire thought and inner perspective. And thats all Im doing.

Interesting. I think this is the first time I've heard this plainly stated.

I imagine this is pretty personal for you, so I'll try to be respectful.

Do you see that your leader could be replaced by another? for example, a politician?

Are these guidelines that you've developed over time or is this commonly held and stated by others like you?

I would think your second item would be the first. Where and how do you get your god's word?

My leader as in, God? No. No man will ever replace God. Been there done that, never again. Foolish. Now that doesnt mean I dont respect authority, in fact I do.

If you read my earlier posts in this same thread you will get a sense of where I developed these guidelines. It is definitely over time. I am about the biggest skeptic you will ever meet, and dont take someone's word blindly.

And no, I have my priorities in that order for a reason. Because salvation is not deeds based, and to live life accordingly would be a lie. Thus, its not the first on my list. Everyone fucks up. No where in the bible does it say believers are somehow exempt from that.

Where and how do I get God's word? Many places. Books, internet, people, inspiration.

Amd thank you for your respect, although I rarely talk about my faith on this board just to avoid attacks. I will say this though...it wouldnt bother me at all (well, maybe for a few seconds) if I were attacked for my beliefs. But in the end, I am confident enough in them that criticism doesnt bother me at all.