On Atheism vs. Christianity

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Moonbeam said
"I often think I killed God because He was killing me."

In your mind you confuse the road with the objective... or the notion of someone else's God notion forced upon you... You and only you are you...

The approach to finding your God... belief as it were, may have been the result of the conditions you found yourself in as you begun the quest to find reality... you simply discarded someone else's notions and sought your own... I think that is human. To each the approach is different or very similar but it is based on lots of stuff that is totally individual... I think...

I'm quite at ease with my belief cuz it is mine...

I think the place I came from was simply too dark to contain a faith when challenged by the pain I saw that darkness produce. The God question for me was a matter of life and death. I descended into a black cave on a rope that could not bear my weight. It just wouldn't go up in the sky. I tried to cross the abyss on a broken bridge. I wanted to bring along a million tons of cabbage. I wanted there to be meaning. I was the deaf arguing with the dumb instead of the blind man carrying a sighted man with no legs. Like an arrow shot too hastily from a bow, I didn't fly very far.

"When one door closes another may be opening."

"New organs of perception appear with need. Oh man, increase your need." Sufi sayings.

I see the existence of God as having two impacts on people... One occurs when a person is no longer contained in their human shell and the other is from birth until death. The former is simple enough and I expect for each a similar event. For the latter I sorta see it as like a Communistic scenario. 'To each according to their needs and from each according to their ability' but that bit is internal to the individual and don't have any divine intervention or miracle or anything... it is the person who has the need and A solution is before them. A mind in turmoil has much work to do but the reward (in this existence) is great... Someone like me who simply discarded what aspects or constraints or demands that people like Popes and Priests etc. put on the faith result in much less of a change or state of utopia...
And I rather suspect that folks who have not one bit of need for the existence of God reject that notion and move on. It is all about the human mind and what that individual mind via what ever conditions exist therein needs or is predisposed to need that ultimately seeks what it needs until sated..
The Sufi sayings are lines of hope... as I see it... Never give up if you find you need then search. You will be given (you already have it but 'given' removes the doubt that it exists or will) the means to the end.
I imagine there exist minds so out of sync chemically or functional aspects so disorganized that the process of getting that mind to any reasonable sentient state is best left to the mind professionals who the person can accept as the organizer but also can provide the approach to the end objective regardless of what that may be. It seems to me... IT has to make sense to the mind of the person for IT to have viability...These folks search for that organizer sometimes all their life... some find them in seemingly divinely controlled situations... You seem to depict you as having been subject to this scenario...

In my mind it is like settled law... all this God exists or don't stuff... I know that folks who have no need to know a God exists don't and they will argue their case based on their mind's rationalization. They will scoff at the notion that anyone could believe God exists cuz it just ain't logical... hehehehehheheeh To them..
Science trying to determine the action of 'heavenly' bodies saw that dang... this is doing this and should do that... regarding gravity... So they added stuff they couldn't see... Dark Energy and matter... Yeah.. that does it... We can't see it but it must be there... Just like God.. I guess...

 

[railer]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Ah, you have been lied to, or have not been told the truth. God does not judge on deeds, nor is He a bureaucrat. So whatever idea you have of God, is wrong.

So....god does not judge on deeds? What does he judge on then? Is it OK to rob, steal, and molest little kids, as long as you go to church on sunday, and truly believe?

Because if that's the case, I'll take the oblivion option as well.

I'm not trying to mock your beliefs, but is it better to be a rotten person and a true believer, than a good person who isn't a christian?

 

[railer]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
[... Yeah.. that does it... We can't see it but it must be there... Just like God.. I guess...

Now you're confusing things that can be proven but not seen, like gravity, anti-matter, etc, with the fictional tales of an ancient sheepherder. Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: railer

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Ah, you have been lied to, or have not been told the truth. God does not judge on deeds, nor is He a bureaucrat. So whatever idea you have of God, is wrong.

So....god does not judge on deeds? What does he judge on then? Is it OK to rob, steal, and molest little kids, as long as you go to church on sunday, and truly believe?

Because if that's the case, I'll take the oblivion option as well.

I'm not trying to mock your beliefs, but is it better to be a rotten person and a true believer, than a good person who isn't a christian?

Nope you still got it wrong. If you were interested in salvation, your questions would be answered. If youre not, thats fine. But know you are making decisions based on fallacy.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: BudAshes
I'm guessing you grew up in texas or some other state where they fail to teach the "theory"(facts) of evolution to their children.

Evolution is theory not fact. People look at species A and species B and assume that A turned into B. Actually watching it happen doesn't work out well since humans have short life spans compared to the time required.

States still use Haeckels drawings to prove evolution, talk about teaching myths.

Charged with fraud by five professors and convicted by a university court at Jena, he agreed that a small percentage of his embryonic drawings were forgeries. Haeckel alleged he was merely filling in and reconstructing the missing links when the evidence was thin. During the trial, Haeckel confessed that he had altered his drawings, but excused himself by saying: ?I should feel utterly condemned and annihilated by the admission, were it not that hundreds of the best observers and biologists lie under the same charge. The great majority of all morphological, anatomical, histological, and embryological diagrams are not true to nature, but are more or less doctored, schematized and reconstructed?.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Moonbeam said
"I often think I killed God because He was killing me."

In your mind you confuse the road with the objective... or the notion of someone else's God notion forced upon you... You and only you are you...

The approach to finding your God... belief as it were, may have been the result of the conditions you found yourself in as you begun the quest to find reality... you simply discarded someone else's notions and sought your own... I think that is human. To each the approach is different or very similar but it is based on lots of stuff that is totally individual... I think...

I'm quite at ease with my belief cuz it is mine...

I think the place I came from was simply too dark to contain a faith when challenged by the pain I saw that darkness produce. The God question for me was a matter of life and death. I descended into a black cave on a rope that could not bear my weight. It just wouldn't go up in the sky. I tried to cross the abyss on a broken bridge. I wanted to bring along a million tons of cabbage. I wanted there to be meaning. I was the deaf arguing with the dumb instead of the blind man carrying a sighted man with no legs. Like an arrow shot too hastily from a bow, I didn't fly very far.

"When one door closes another may be opening."

"New organs of perception appear with need. Oh man, increase your need." Sufi sayings.

I see the existence of God as having two impacts on people... One occurs when a person is no longer contained in their human shell and the other is from birth until death. The former is simple enough and I expect for each a similar event. For the latter I sorta see it as like a Communistic scenario. 'To each according to their needs and from each according to their ability' but that bit is internal to the individual and don't have any divine intervention or miracle or anything... it is the person who has the need and A solution is before them. A mind in turmoil has much work to do but the reward (in this existence) is great... Someone like me who simply discarded what aspects or constraints or demands that people like Popes and Priests etc. put on the faith result in much less of a change or state of utopia...
And I rather suspect that folks who have not one bit of need for the existence of God reject that notion and move on. It is all about the human mind and what that individual mind via what ever conditions exist therein needs or is predisposed to need that ultimately seeks what it needs until sated..
The Sufi sayings are lines of hope... as I see it... Never give up if you find you need then search. You will be given (you already have it but 'given' removes the doubt that it exists or will) the means to the end.
I imagine there exist minds so out of sync chemically or functional aspects so disorganized that the process of getting that mind to any reasonable sentient state is best left to the mind professionals who the person can accept as the organizer but also can provide the approach to the end objective regardless of what that may be. It seems to me... IT has to make sense to the mind of the person for IT to have viability...These folks search for that organizer sometimes all their life... some find them in seemingly divinely controlled situations... You seem to depict you as having been subject to this scenario...

In my mind it is like settled law... all this God exists or don't stuff... I know that folks who have no need to know a God exists don't and they will argue their case based on their mind's rationalization. They will scoff at the notion that anyone could believe God exists cuz it just ain't logical... hehehehehheheeh To them..
Science trying to determine the action of 'heavenly' bodies saw that dang... this is doing this and should do that... regarding gravity... So they added stuff they couldn't see... Dark Energy and matter... Yeah.. that does it... We can't see it but it must be there... Just like God.. I guess...

Spot on.

 

[railer]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: railer

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Ah, you have been lied to, or have not been told the truth. God does not judge on deeds, nor is He a bureaucrat. So whatever idea you have of God, is wrong.

So....god does not judge on deeds? What does he judge on then? Is it OK to rob, steal, and molest little kids, as long as you go to church on sunday, and truly believe?

Because if that's the case, I'll take the oblivion option as well.

I'm not trying to mock your beliefs, but is it better to be a rotten person and a true believer, than a good person who isn't a christian?

Nope you still got it wrong. If you were interested in salvation, your questions would be answered. If youre not, thats fine. But know you are making decisions based on fallacy.

Well, help me get it right then. Or is this like scientology, where the secret levels are withheld until a later time.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: BudAshes
I'm guessing you grew up in texas or some other state where they fail to teach the "theory"(facts) of evolution to their children.

Evolution is theory not fact. People look at species A and species B and assume that A turned into B. Actually watching it happen doesn't work out well since humans have short life spans compared to the time required.

States still use Haeckels drawings to prove evolution, talk about teaching myths.

Charged with fraud by five professors and convicted by a university court at Jena, he agreed that a small percentage of his embryonic drawings were forgeries. Haeckel alleged he was merely filling in and reconstructing the missing links when the evidence was thin. During the trial, Haeckel confessed that he had altered his drawings, but excused himself by saying: ?I should feel utterly condemned and annihilated by the admission, were it not that hundreds of the best observers and biologists lie under the same charge. The great majority of all morphological, anatomical, histological, and embryological diagrams are not true to nature, but are more or less doctored, schematized and reconstructed?.

I think youre looking at it too black and white. Evolution does indeed exist. For example, viruses evolve all the time. We have many different forms of the same virus, depending on the viruses environment. In the case of humans, Look at the various forms: Europeans, Africans, asians. They are all very different and have evolved to fit into the environments they have lived in for x number of years. Sure there are differences within these (for example, a Nord is distinctly different than a German, a korean is distinctly different from an Indonesian) but in general they are the same.

But I think what you are addressing is the evolution from one species to another, and in that case youre right. There is no evidence it has happened.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: railer

Originally posted by: LunarRay
[... Yeah.. that does it... We can't see it but it must be there... Just like God.. I guess...

Now you're confusing things that can be proven but not seen, like gravity, anti-matter, etc, with the fictional tales of an ancient sheepherder. Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Ahhh... You have determined, using the logic of science as it exists today assuming science knows all there is to know, to conclude we both sleep well based on views not in accord with each other. That is fine by me... Ya can lead a horse to water... but a pencil must be lead.. I'd no more attempt to change your view about God or how you rationalize that than I would seek to force feed water to a thirsty horse... he'll drink if he's thirsty... if not he'll not.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: railer


So....god does not judge on deeds? What does he judge on then? Is it OK to rob, steal, and molest little kids, as long as you go to church on sunday, and truly believe?

Because if that's the case, I'll take the oblivion option as well.

I'm not trying to mock your beliefs, but is it better to be a rotten person and a true believer, than a good person who isn't a christian?

My belief is that he does judge on deeds and the way you live your life. I think God wants us to become more than what we are. To evolve to the point that we are as close to Christ like as possible. If he is our creator then he wants for us to make the most of what we are.

I truly believe that God created life on this planet, although I think it was a ton more technological in nature than what the bible suggest as being supernatural. The story of genesis makes a lot of sense. A supreme being creates life on a planet. He tells his servants (Angels) that they will become #3 in importance and that humans will become #2. Some of the angels are pissed at the concept that humans would be placed above them who have served for so long. They(Lucifer) rebels and to prove that humans are not worthy shows how easy they are corrupted (Eve+Apple). God becomes enraged and banishes Lucifer and any angels that side with him. Now the two are at odds. God could aid man, prevent death, give everyone a blissful life, but that would prove nothing. Instead it is up to man to prove that he is worthy, if he can't then Lucifer wins and would inherit the earth.

So it is up to every person to make the most of what they are. That includes not hating others because they are atheist or religious. That would also mean that to attend church would not give you any more points for being better unless attending the church was for the reason to help build your confidence and increase your compassion and understanding. If you do something just because you expect a reward from God then you will get no reward because you have still done it for selfish reasons rather than because you wanted to help someone or to be a better person.

I think religious organizations have done a great disservice to God as a whole. They have done many things in his name that are clearly not what he intended. To say things like you can't go to heaven unless you except Jesus is wrong. What about people in the middle of a jungle that never hear of Jesus or the bible but are good people at heart ? Do they really believe these people go to hell because no missionary made the journey there ? That goes against everything Jesus taught. So yes God does judge on deeds.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: railer

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: railer

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Ah, you have been lied to, or have not been told the truth. God does not judge on deeds, nor is He a bureaucrat. So whatever idea you have of God, is wrong.

So....god does not judge on deeds? What does he judge on then? Is it OK to rob, steal, and molest little kids, as long as you go to church on sunday, and truly believe?

Because if that's the case, I'll take the oblivion option as well.

I'm not trying to mock your beliefs, but is it better to be a rotten person and a true believer, than a good person who isn't a christian?

Nope you still got it wrong. If you were interested in salvation, your questions would be answered. If youre not, thats fine. But know you are making decisions based on fallacy.

Well, help me get it right then. Or is this like scientology, where the secret levels are withheld until a later time.

Salvation is a multi step process, the first of which is acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior, and understanding why. Its no mystery and theres no secret. But it has to come from an open mind and heart, which most people dont have.

 

[LunarRay]

Science is now going back to the origin of the universe... to the moment of the Big Bang.... heheheheheheh I wonder if sittin on some old dried up star bit tending a flock of sheep sits a fellow who'll wave into the device human kind devised to learn the truth... hehehehe

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Modelworks


My belief is that he does judge on deeds and the way you live your life. I think God wants us to become more than what we are. To evolve to the point that we are as close to Christ like as possible. If he is our creator then he wants for us to make the most of what we are.

Sort of. Salvation is not based on deeds; however, as scripture says, you can tell a tree by the fruit that it bears.

Originally posted by: Modelworks
I truly believe that God created life on this planet, although I think it was a ton more technological in nature than what the bible suggest as being supernatural. The story of genesis makes a lot of sense. A supreme being creates life on a planet. He tells his servants (Angels) that they will become #3 in importance and that humans will become #2. Some of the angels are pissed at the concept that humans would be placed above them who have served for so long. They(Lucifer) rebels and to prove that humans are not worthy shows how easy they are corrupted (Eve+Apple). God becomes enraged and banishes Lucifer and any angels that side with him. Now the two are at odds. God could aid man, prevent death, give everyone a blissful life, but that would prove nothing. Instead it is up to man to prove that he is worthy, if he can't then Lucifer wins and would inherit the earth.

For the most part I agree; however, your last few sentances are incorrect, as scripture portrays the fall of man. The earth and all that is in it was handed over to Lucifer. Its already his playground. And your statement about man proving to God that he is worthy is based on deeds based salvation, which goes against almost the entire New Testiment. Remember, God chose us before we chose Him.

Originally posted by: Modelworks
So it is up to every person to make the most of what they are. That includes not hating others because they are atheist or religious. That would also mean that to attend church would not give you any more points for being better unless attending the church was for the reason to help build your confidence and increase your compassion and understanding. If you do something just because you expect a reward from God then you will get no reward because you have still done it for selfish reasons rather than because you wanted to help someone or to be a better person.

I agree with this. The point of church is not to gain points, but rather for instruction. Everyone learns in church. It isnt about someone bullying from the pulpit.

Originally posted by: Modelworks
I think religious organizations have done a great disservice to God as a whole. They have done many things in his name that are clearly not what he intended. To say things like you can't go to heaven unless you except Jesus is wrong. What about people in the middle of a jungle that never hear of Jesus or the bible but are good people at heart ? Do they really believe these people go to hell because no missionary made the journey there ? That goes against everything Jesus taught. So yes God does judge on deeds.

I agree wholeheartedly, with exception of your last sentence. But we can agree to disagree I suppose.

Deeds based faith is pretty empty. Its also not scriptural. Yes, scripture does teach about fruit of a believing life; however, its more in the vein of responsibility. Are there people who do bad things in God's name? Of course. But to judge faith based ont hat is just narrow minded. People, even Christians, are imperfect creatures. Faith based living isnt just about what you do and dont do, but its about grace and forgiveness also.

 

[imported_gardener]

The strength of CS Lewis was his scepticism. He wanted Christianity to be true. He never discounted the opposing view.

CS Lewis would describe you as someone who drives intelligent people away from faith.

 

[railer]

This point has come to my mind before, and is probably one of the biggest reasons that I don't consider myself to be religious at all:

As a christian, how do you resolve the fact that roughly 80% of the current population of the earth is non-christian, and what do you suppose will happen to those people when they die? How about all the folks who lived and died before christianity was invented?

It's questions like this that not only keep me out of church, but make me skeptical of anyone who chooses to attend.

I really don't mean to sound disrespectful, especially towards people like blackangst who are trying to have an adult conversation without adding hehehe's to their comments. But there are some real show stoppers for me when it comes to accepting christianity, or pretty much any other organized religion.

 

[imported_gardener]

CS Lewis (who wrote "The Problem of Pain") was quick to point out that there were very good people who were atheists. Additionally, both his Space Trilogy and in the Chronicles of Narnia opens the door that other religions and belief systems are on an equal footing with christianity.

He would not agree with the limited view of salvation that is currently popular amongst the evangelical rightwing in the USA.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: railer
This point has come to my mind before, and is probably one of the biggest reasons that I don't consider myself to be religious at all:

As a christian, how do you resolve the fact that roughly 80% of the current population of the earth is non-christian, and what do you suppose will happen to those people when they die? How about all the folks who lived and died before christianity was invented?

It's questions like this that not only keep me out of church, but make me skeptical of anyone who chooses to attend.

I really don't mean to sound disrespectful, especially towards people like blackangst who are trying to have an adult conversation without adding hehehe's to their comments. But there are some real show stoppers for me when it comes to accepting christianity, or pretty much any other organized religion.

These are valid, and tough questions. But there are answers. Some things you dont resolve. What I mean by that is, some things are ugly, even with faith. But to reject faith because you dont like the answers is picking and choosing. Hell, there are things I like and dont like about atheism; however, overall, it doesnt make sense to me, therefore I dont choose it for myself. The fact is, Jesus is more than a guy in a robe in a field of flowers with children. And the fact is, not everyone will go to heaven. Choices have consequences. I dont say that from a bully pulpit, I really dont. But the truth is what it is.

 

[imported_gardener]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

...it doesnt make sense to me...

Ultimately, it all comes down to reason, and what you spend a paragraph failing to say clearly fails the test.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: gardener

Originally posted by: blackangst1

...it doesnt make sense to me...

Ultimately, it all comes down to reason, and what you spend a paragraph failing to say clearly fails the test.

I dont understand what you mean. and it ultimately comes down to far more than reason.

 

[imported_gardener]

1 step at a time.

CS Lewis answered that question by saying the 80% of the people who don't believe in Jesus will be judged by their own religious standards.

Do you share that view?


(edit: I am referring to railers question about the 80%...)

 

[babylon5]

Jesus is the ONLY true savior of all humanity. Believe in him, you go to heaven. If you don't, you go to hell after death. All other religion is the work of Lucifer intended to deceive the weak from Jesus The Lord.

 

[railer]

Originally posted by: babylon5
Jesus is the ONLY true savior of all humanity. Believe in him, you go to heaven. If you don't, you go to hell after death. All other religion is the work of Lucifer intended to deceive the weak from Jesus The Lord.

There should be some standard font to denote sarcasm, because without looking at your previous posts I would have of course thought that you were the typical fundy.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: gardener
1 step at a time.

CS Lewis answered that question by saying the 80% of the people who don't believe in Jesus will be judged by their own religious standards.

Do you share that view?


(edit: I am referring to railers question about the 80%...)

I would have to look up Lewis's exact quote, but that doesnt sound right, and its not biblical. So to directly answer your question, based on that quote alone, no I dont.

edit: a quick search found this quote from Lewis regarding scripture, which I agree with: "The Scriptures come before me as a book claiming divine inspiration." Also he wrote that "all Holy Scripture [including even the imprecatory psalms] is in some sense-though not all parts of it in the same sense-the word of God."

editII: I found these quotes: I think everyone who has some vague belief in God, until he becomes a Christian, has the idea of an exam or of a bargain in his mind. The first result of real Christianity is to blow that idea into bits?God has been waiting for the moment at which you discover that there is no question of earning a passing mark in this exam or putting Him in your debts.

Which, as Ive always known Lewis to preach on, comes from salvation by grace.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

My belief is that he does judge on deeds and the way you live your life. I think God wants us to become more than what we are. To evolve to the point that we are as close to Christ like as possible. If he is our creator then he wants for us to make the most of what we are.

I truly believe that God created life on this planet, although I think it was a ton more technological in nature than what the bible suggest as being supernatural. The story of genesis makes a lot of sense. A supreme being creates life on a planet. He tells his servants (Angels) that they will become #3 in importance and that humans will become #2. Some of the angels are pissed at the concept that humans would be placed above them who have served for so long. They(Lucifer) rebels and to prove that humans are not worthy shows how easy they are corrupted (Eve+Apple). God becomes enraged and banishes Lucifer and any angels that side with him. Now the two are at odds. God could aid man, prevent death, give everyone a blissful life, but that would prove nothing. Instead it is up to man to prove that he is worthy, if he can't then Lucifer wins and would inherit the earth.

So it is up to every person to make the most of what they are. That includes not hating others because they are atheist or religious. That would also mean that to attend church would not give you any more points for being better unless attending the church was for the reason to help build your confidence and increase your compassion and understanding. If you do something just because you expect a reward from God then you will get no reward because you have still done it for selfish reasons rather than because you wanted to help someone or to be a better person.

I think religious organizations have done a great disservice to God as a whole. They have done many things in his name that are clearly not what he intended. To say things like you can't go to heaven unless you except Jesus is wrong. What about people in the middle of a jungle that never hear of Jesus or the bible but are good people at heart ? Do they really believe these people go to hell because no missionary made the journey there ? That goes against everything Jesus taught. So yes God does judge on deeds.

That's quite a fantastic story you told there. :thumbsup: I think I like Lord of the Rings better though.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: railer
I really don't mean to sound disrespectful, especially towards people like blackangst who are trying to have an adult conversation without adding hehehe's to their comments. But there are some real show stoppers for me when it comes to accepting christianity, or pretty much any other organized religion.

That's the problem though. It isn't an adult conversation. Blackangst is whipping out mythology, and speaking as though it is fact. As much as I have appreciated his comments on investing & finance, his rather childish clinging to ancient fables has significantly reduced my respect for him. And the fact that many others are doing the same as him is simply no excuse. This is especially with all of the scientific and historical perspectives we have today. During the Dark Ages the lower classes were fed all of this stuff with little to no access to counter-reasoning or counter-evidence. Now with access to the Internet, there is 0 excuse for having these primitive beliefs.

Here is one site that destroys Christian and religious dogma:

God Is Imaginary

Video after video drives one nail in the coffin after another.

Edit: Linky to videos

If you watch all of those videos and still can't come to believe that Christianity & religion is false, then I feel sorry for you.