On racism in America...

[linuxboy]

Hoeboy's thread on the pride experienced while observing a Latino family led me to requestion the civil rights movements, the feminist movement, and the role racism and the struggle for racial equality has played in the shaping of the moral and social policies of this nation as well as our own modern understanding of reality and the education system's role in passing down these ideas.

Namely, has anything changed since the times of segregation and apartheid and if so what and to what extent? How much work is left to do?

The reason I ask this is because with the recent global developments, people tend to put domestic problems and problems concerning ordinary life for many people out of mind and thus out of existence. In taking a rosy view of the world, people forget the past history and problems that still plague us today. Sure, everyone preaches the same values of fraternity, equality, and liberty but underneath the mindless droning of mass opinion lurks the true intentions driving human action forward and ultimately shaping the world we all live in. I wasn't alive during the civil rights movement and if I had been, I would be in a different country considering my past but I am intimately aware of the problems that were faced by blacks during that time and especially the current manifestations of anger and disillusionment I see in members of US society.

Pluralism and tolerance and the du jour specialties but in seeing the power and influence in the modern corporate and political arenas, I see that fundamentally little has been done. People may say tolerance one day but once the thin veneer of their world is penetrated, once that bubble is burst, once again I see the same agenda of dominance and control that has been in place ever since people have decided to place an absolute value on a relative idea.

Racism may not be as blatant as it once were but my concern is whether it is still a significant issue, significant enough that we take more notice and possibly work a little harder at recognizing its problems.

Another concern I have is just how little understanding the vast majority in the middle class have both of themselves and of the classes above and below them. Most people I know just want to lead a good life, full of routine and order and to have their children inherit a slightly better future obtained through back and soul-breaking labor. No longer is the voice of the black man heard or the rage of his soul understood as the complacency brought by an "I'm ok, you're ok" era manifests itself in the mind of our progeny. But the voice remains, loud and clear, for those who want to hear.

I guess what I'm asking is: how far have we come in overcoming racism, where do problems still exist and has anything fundamentally changed that enables us to understand better ourselves, our past, and our future in relation to each other and the world-at-large?

any thoughts welcome

 

[damien6]

Laws were erected to show that lessons were learned and the gov't recognize that concern but most people in general, miss that day of class.

Quite simply: People just hide it better and laws say one thing but living it is entirely a separate matter.

 

[veryape]

Racism will never go away becuase there are people who don't seem to want it to. They seem content in blaming their problems on the color of their skin.

You are never going to change the way certain people view other races because a lot of the stereotypes are right on the money and when what you see is what you get then why should these people change their views?

The world is never going to be the big fairy tale you are looking to make it. When you mix so many different and diverse cultures there are bound to be people who clash. Remember that not only blacks and hispanics are predjudiced against.

It seems to me that people that claim racism do not want to change the very things that make people view them in a negative light, they seem content doing the same old things but expecting different results.

I certainly do not condone racism but I do understand why some people feel the way they do about certain races and I really do not think those people's views can ever be swayed.

 

[ZAQ3211]

Quote from Martin Luther King, and I'm pretty close:

"Judge me not by the color of my skin, but by the content of my character."

Now, there is Jesse Jackson - multi millionaire - from the racist protection racket.
JJ goes to businesses and threatens them. "you've got a racism problem here."
He tells them to hire a certain consulting firm, of course he owns a piece of that consulting firm.
After a period of time, I will get infront of a camera with you and tell the world that your doing a fine
job with discrimination.
The alternative is, JJ will start a national boycott of their product or service.

That was called a protection racket by the mafia.

So, racizm and discrimination is alive and well.
Then there is Al Sharpton - enough said.

ZAQ

 

[gopunk]

It seems to me that people that claim racism do not want to change the very things that make people view them in a negative light, they seem content doing the same old things but expecting different results.

EXACTLY what i was going to say.

 

[mofo888]

We must all first admit that people are just plain DIFFERENT. We have different cultures, taste,
and what-have-you... and just when someone doesn't conform to your ideals...BAM, you
start bashing them. Just plain sucks, but that's reality. People will always be narrow-minded
and ego-centric....

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

It seems to me that people that claim racism do not want to change the very things that make people view them in a negative light, they seem content doing the same old things but expecting different results.
So what exactly is the same old things? Out of wedlock births, drug use, crime, rates of incarceration, illiteracy . . .

You are never going to change the way certain people view other races because a lot of the stereotypes are right on the money and when what you see is what you get then why should these people change their views?
Well, compare rates of these various stereotypes. For instance, out of wedlock births among blacks in 1980 to those of whites in 2000. If the % is identical and the stereotype for blacks existed in the 80s is it appropriate for whites in the 21st century?

Drug use is typically the same regardless of decade the difference is in the type of drugs used. If the US criminal code treated all forms of the same substance equally (1oz powder=1oz crack) what do you think rates of incarceration would look like?

Your stereotypes are never going to change b/c that's how you choose to view the world. In this case, a less than rosy-colored set of glasses. Every negative press report or anecdote reinforces your beliefs but information that contradicts your prejudice is discounted. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are no more indicative of contemporary black America than Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggert represent contemporary white America. The primary difference is that Bakker/Swaggert have already been jettisoned by America at large and major media. Jesse/Al have been discarded by much of black America but the media continues to gravitate towards them b/c Jesse/Al are media whores and the media is lazy.

David Duke plays into this same kind of duplicity. Blacks and Hispanics commit a disproportionate amount of crime, therefore blacks and Hispanics are criminals until proven otherwise. Well, OK but who do they attack . . . overwelmingly other blacks and hispanics. Who should whites fear? Immigrants come to America and take "your jobs". Well, OK but if you are either "unqualified" or "unwilling" to do the job how can they take something that never belonged to you?

 

[jjones]

racism and descrimination is still strong in the U.S. it's a very complicated issue surrounded by ignorance and intolerance leading to the polarization between different cultural communities. imho, the only way to overcome this is through education, not laws. one of the saddest things i've seen in my lifetime is the greatness of all that the U.S has to offer while providing, comparatively speaking, one of the poorest educational systems in the world.

 

[linuxboy]

I am delighted to see such thoughtful comments.

Another thing that comes to mind is the rage blacks feel toward a mainly white, patriarchial society. Recall malcolm X, the kind of extreme radicalism and rage he espoused is still present, and I think overwhelmingly so. How can that rage be channeled?

I think the problem is that minorities live in a different world. When one is black, or even holding a vastly different ideology, then adaptation becomes a skill of observing and giving people what they want to hear. Recall the pre 60's days. Most blacks worked for whites and they observed and gathered psychological demographics to know how to manipulate the system to get what they want.

I think the reason that changed and continues t change is a larger middle class and education.
jjones, you mentioned that the only way to get rid of wide social problems is to educate the youth. But is there a limit to how much we can teach? What about large conflicts between the democratic/capitalistic viewpoint and the worldviews of many immigrants and even people with different ideas. Where should the line be drawn? What exactly is the purpose of the teacher?

 

[worth]

<< Now, there is Jesse Jackson - multi millionaire - from the racist protection racket. >>

 

[LAUST]

Same here LB

 

[linuxboy]

Martin Luthor King was SOO much better a man, that rage $h!t is for self interested a$$holes like Malcolm X, if X thought he was part of the ONLY race on the planet that was ever oppressed that explains why he was so foolish, Wonder how the Jews felt being stuffed in the oven, and I can go on with a list that dates back thousands of years, but I unlike (X marks the MORON) have read history and not based on self interest.

I think the acts of this country in the past were VERY wrong, but King was 1 MILLION times the man X was... oh wait ZERO times anything is Zero,, you get the point, King went about it with a conscience is the real point, having Rage is a moron thing to do and only extends the problem.

Edit: I didn't mean to come off as a jerk about it, like I said I belive the acts were wrong, but Honestly to "Channel that rage, the best solution is to educate these people who think they should feel that way.

Possibly. But consider the viewpoint of Malcolm X. He is a black man who has no power. All around him he sees people who say, let's wait, and the white man will give us power. But he is tired of it. He sees no end to the political games, to the small capitulations, and to the injustice. If you don't recall the post King-days, I will remind you. King achieved much, but after the whites gave up power, and after King's followers asked for more, the whites were outraged. How dare those blacks ask for more was their attitude? So Malcolm responded. He said that nothing had changed. Fundamentally, the blacks were still in a bad place. The whites were just toying with them. Recall novels by Morrison and Ellison. The people were invisible. The blacks were denied their blackness. They were promised equality, equality but in the end the actions of the society said, "stay down there black man, you get nothing"

My concern is that perhaps now not much has changed. We call ourselves liberal and open minded but if the prevailing power and political structures are the same, then the struggle continued, unknown to most.

While your critique of Malcolm X is noted, I don't think you fully experience the reality of many, many minority groups.

And as for King, the man was an adultering, hypocritical plagiarizer. Read the history. He's not the saint may take him to be but he was a great leader.

 

[linuxboy]

People just hide it better and laws say one thing but living it is entirely a separate matter.

Exactly my point. Then the question is, what can be done to change this?

 

[LAUST]

I agree with that.

 

[Scarpozzi]

NASCAR is my favorite rac.....ohh....racism you say???............umm......"Can't we all just get along????"

 

[ShotgunSteven]

Too often is seems that Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, etc., are more interested in perpetuating the problem. If there were no more racism, they would be out of their cushy jobs.

 

[Maetryx]

<< Possibly. But consider the viewpoint of Malcolm X. He is a black man who has no power. All around him he sees people who say, let's wait, and the white man will give us power. But he is tired of it. He sees no end to the political games, to the small capitulations, and to the injustice. If you don't recall the post King-days, I will remind you. King achieved much, but after the whites gave up power, and after King's followers asked for more, the whites were outraged. How dare those blacks ask for more was their attitude? So Malcolm responded. He said that nothing had changed. Fundamentally, the blacks were still in a bad place. The whites were just toying with them. Recall novels by Morrison and Ellison. The people were invisible. The blacks were denied their blackness. They were promised equality, equality but in the end the actions of the society said, "stay down there black man, you get nothing" >>



It seems to me that you grant the validity of the black stereotyping of whites in the same paragraph that you are blasting the white's for the same behavior. You're affirming Malcolm X's wide brush in painting whites like this:
- political games, small capitulations, injustice
- outraged when blacks ask for more
- the attitude of "How dare blacks..."
- just toying with blacks
- the response "stay down there black man, you get nothing"

So Malcolm X is allowed to claim this about whites, even though it is just some whites? Maybe it was most whites? If that is a valid line of reasoning (and it may be), then white's should be afforded the same logical reasoning when characterizing blacks. Most blacks... therefore black society..... Some blacks... therefore balck society..... You can't allow the stereotyping in one direction and not the other.

 

[LAUST]

You can't allow the stereotyping in one direction and not the other.

Extremely true.

 

[ZAQ3211]

Consider the successful black that attains success on Wall Street or corporate America or his own business. Too often they are condemned and demeaned by their own people -
for trying to be "white." Or selling out to the whites.

Why are so many minorities chastised for getting good grades in school - as if it is a "sellout?"

Consider the Oakland School District teaching of eubonics - Doesn't that promote the "differrences?"

Martin Luther King spoke VERY good English - easily understood.

Sidney Poitier came from here with an accent - He wanted to be in movies - In 6 months he learned to
speak without an accent. Why is it looked down upon when spealing English? Why is that looked upon as selling out to whitie?
Doesn't this promote differrences?

ZAQ

 

[DaejangNim]

<< David Duke plays into this same kind of duplicity. Blacks and Hispanics commit a disproportionate amount of crime, therefore blacks and Hispanics are criminals until proven otherwise. Well, OK but who do they attack . . . overwelmingly other blacks and hispanics. Who should whites fear? Immigrants come to America and take "your jobs". Well, OK but if you are either "unqualified" or "unwilling" to do the job how can they take something that never belonged to you? >>

I occasionally read what David Duke writes (though I rarely agree with anything the bigot ever says), and he also complains about Hispanics being in poverty and spreading their poverty into the United States, but in his "Duke Report" for 10/28,today, he complains about Mexican immigrants making too much money and sending it back to Mexico. So people complain if they are rich or poor and there will always be racist people no matter what.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

I occasionally read what David Duke writes (though I rarely agree with anything the bigot ever says) . . .spreading their poverty into the United States . . .making too much money and sending it back to Mexico
Excellent, intelligent people invariably come across this quandry. No matter how disingenuous DD may be, he invariably says something that is quite factual. Honest individuals, like yourself, have to concede that some of his arguments are germane. The problem is people like Duke (and those who think like him but don't want to admit it) never tell the flip side of a statistic . . . only the portion that substantiates their viewpoint.

Why are so many minorities chastised for getting good grades in school - as if it is a "sellout?"
I spent a year teaching at an inner-city "alternative" school. A succinct answer would be role models. The role models for too many of these kids suck; parents, neighborhood drunks/drugs/crime, TV. Many of these children were quite intelligent but the educational system was never designed to correct the failings of society at large.

Consider the Oakland School District teaching of eubonics - Doesn't that promote the "differrences?"
Indeed, the whole concept of teaching ebonics when the kids suck at English was certainly asinine.

Martin Luther King spoke VERY good English - easily understood.
Well, what should he speak Dubya version . . . and be very difficult to understand. MLK achieved his notoriety through great works in the service of America (not just blacks). He had to speak English b/c our undereducated population can't speak anything else.

And as for King, the man was an adultering, hypocritical plagiarizer. Read the history. He's not the saint may take him to be but he was a great leader. Yes, all facts . . . but who wants to make MLK a saint he's no Mother Teresa but his achievements for America are not less significant b/c he failed to live every day of his life as Christ instructs. By that measure GWB is going to hell for all the people he has killed, drinking to excess, clear lies. OK, comparing GWB to MLK is just as unfair as comparing MLK to Mother Teresa.

 

[Cyberian]

<< Blacks and Hispanics commit a disproportionate amount of crime, >>


This is enough to make some people racist, regardless of any underlying reasons for the elevated crime rate.
It may not be right, but it is a fact.

 

[yoyo25]

I think the first amendment ensures the people's right to be racist or biggots...

 

[linuxboy]

So Malcolm X is allowed to claim this about whites, even though it is just some whites? Maybe it was most whites? If that is a valid line of reasoning (and it may be), then white's should be afforded the same logical reasoning when characterizing blacks. Most blacks... therefore black society..... Some blacks... therefore balck society..... You can't allow the stereotyping in one direction and not the other.

Your observation of the exact meaning of my post of laudable. However, I must point out that in the particular instance I passed (or perhaps intended) little judgment on the opinion and actions of Malcolm X. My post was merely a tool to look at the alternative viewpoint, namely the viewpoint held by black redical groups advocating violence. To some extent, I also wanted to point out that rage and anger is present to this day and that it must not be ignored by looking at the world as if we have conquered racism.

From the posts in this thread let me try and draw some conclusions:

Although racism is not as blatant as in years past, the fundamental social problems and people's nature and unwillingness to accept others remain. The civil rights movements of the past have helped many people but some people, of all creed and coclor, still suffer from the prejudiced and racist views some hold. People still react when exposed to a different system and this may change but only if significant work is done.

The political system in the US allows for great possibilities and many do take advantage of this both positively and negatively. If we truly want to stop the damage that has been done, we must diligently work and try to improve the little area accessible to us. If we all do that, then maybe through the collective efforts of many, a greater good can be accomplished.

 

[ByteMe]

<<

<< Blacks and Hispanics commit a disproportionate amount of crime, >>


This is enough to make some people racist, regardless of any underlying reasons for the elevated crime rate.
It may not be right, but it is a fact. >>




Show me some links to statistics to back this up.

On Politically Correct Bill Mar said that 92% of the people arrested in the U.S.A. are white!