On the Border . . .

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digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
0
0
Originally posted by: X-Man
"Mob justice"? "Vigilantes"?

These guys are going to sit along the border with binoculars, GPS devices, and cell phones. If they see any illegals crossing, they'll call border control with their coordinates.

Sounds like neighborhood watch to me. What's so wrong with that?

Some of them are armed - well, guess what, in Arizona, citizens are allowed to carry weapons so long as three inches of the grip is visible.

The problem is the drug cartels, specifically the one linked to the disappearances and deaths of 29 americans, as well as 6 or 7 murders in Dallas has openly said it plans to target these volunteers.
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
0
0
Originally posted by: mhillary
Mexico is the gateway for the entry of illegal imigrants.

Not really. Only half of the illegals enter through Mexico, and the vast majority of them are mexican because Mexico has strict immigration and has a militarized southern boarder.

 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The problem is the drug cartels, specifically the one linked to the disappearances and deaths of 29 americans, as well as 6 or 7 murders in Dallas has openly said it plans to target these volunteers.

Which explains why the minutemen feel the need to arm themselves...the smuggling of illegal immigrants across the Mexican border has become a lucrative side business for these drug cartels...there have been numerous reports of these cartels using the immigrants as mules to carry their product across the border as well.

As someone else mentioned, the drug cartels have become very effective at evading the protocol and procedures of our border patrol...these minutemen will use initiative and ingenuity to protect our border, which is difficult at best to adapt to.

So long as it doesn't turn into an illegal immigrant turkey shoot, I have no problem with this...the immigrants are the victims in all of this.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Fun and Games in Arizona . .

<CLIP>

They came by the hundreds Friday, men and women from across the nation, hearts brimming with righteous anger, determined to staunch the flow of illegal immigration.

Some wore pistols slung low on their hips. Others walked the dusty streets in leather cowboy hats, wearing buttons that read: "Undocumented Border Patrol Agent." There were pilots, window washers, private investigators and exterminators.

These are the new Minutemen. And for the next month, they will patrol 23 miles of desert here in southeast Arizona, the busiest corridor for illegal immigrants in the nation with about 500,000 arrests last year.

"We have an illegal invasion of our country going on now that is affecting our schools, our healthcare system and our society in general," said volunteer Joe McCutchen, 73, of Fort Smith, Ark. "No society can sustain this."

The Minutemen's presence here has set off protests from immigrant-rights groups and drew a handful of counter-demonstrators Friday. The Mexican government has increased its troop strength along the border, and President Vicente Fox has called on the American government to protect illegal immigrants coming across the desert.

President Bush outraged many of the volunteers here by calling them vigilantes. They responded by calling Bush the co-president of Mexico and a leader who has failed his responsibility to secure the country's borders.

At a rally Friday in an airy building not far from the infamous OK Corral, politicians and activists lambasted Bush and vowed not to be intimidated.

"Since when did actually enforcing the laws of the land become a radical idea?" asked Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-Colo.). "If you don't know who is coming across your borders and for what purpose, then you cannot call yourself a nation."

The 200 or so volunteers roared their approval, a few shouting: "Tancredo for president!"

Conservative political pundit Bay Buchanan chipped in. "Mr. President, you have failed us, you have failed our children, you have failed those communities suffering from drugs coming across the border," she said. "Mr. President, you have failed America!"

Outside the hall, demonstrators pounded pots and pans with spoons, trying to drown out the rally. There were dancers in traditional Aztec dress carrying signs calling the Minutemen racists. Monitors in red and white shirts from the American Civil Liberties Union have organized themselves into groups that will follow the civilian patrols that officially begin Monday.

"We will stay about 50 to 100 yards behind them to deter the use of violence and document any illegal activity," said Ray Ybarra of the Arizona ACLU.

The number of Minutemen who assembled here Friday was not as great as had been expected. James Gilchrist, the Orange County activist who organized the event, had predicted at least 1,000 would show up.

"They will be coming throughout the month, and not all on the first day," he said.

Gilchrist emphasized to his troops that no one was authorized to touch or detain any illegal immigrant, but that they should report them to the Border Patrol ? which has said it doesn't want the help. "The rules of engagement are that there is no engagement," Gilchrist said.

Gilchrist, a 58-year-old Vietnam veteran and retired accountant from Aliso Viejo, said that white supremacist groups such as the Aryan Nations, which urged people to volunteer for the Minutemen, were not welcome.

"I have found in the last three months that hate groups come in all colors," Gilchrist said, explaining he had been threatened by a Latino gang and various individuals. "I have had ? probably 12 actual death threats."

Gilchrist said the fact that the U.S. government announced this week the addition of 500 border patrol agents here showed that his effort was already paying off.

"We know we are not a panacea, that we are not going to change this all in 30 days," he said. "But we have already accomplished our goal a hundred-fold in getting the media out here and getting the message out."

The number of media members here Friday to cover the volunteer border patrols nearly outnumbered the Minutemen. Reporters from around the world descended on Tombstone, population 4,800. Along with journalists came some filmmakers working on documentaries about the U.S.-Mexican border.

Chris Simcox, editor of the Tombstone Tumbleweed newspaper and a key organizer of the event, warned participants that they would be under enormous scrutiny. "The media has created this frenzy and this monster," he said. "They are looking for Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster ? the vigilante. But they aren't going to find it. The media will be watching everything we do. We are going to be held accountable to the letter of the law. You must abide by every law or you will not succeed."

The Minutemen don't fit neatly into any stereotype. Some wore fatigues and carried military-issue Meals Ready to Eat. Others resembled suburbanites out for a weekend adventure. A few toted handguns.

Buddy Watson, a former prison guard, carried a .40-caliber pistol. He said he had reread the Constitution before coming here from Bentonville, Ark., to make sure he didn't violate anybody's rights.

"We have been threatened, so I am carrying a gun," he said. "I have no intention of having to use it."

Gilchrist said the Minutemen had been threatened by MS-13, a Central American street gang.

Bill Davis, 66, who kills coyotes for a living, worried about the number of guns he saw.

"The ACLU is praying ? that someone gets wacky out here," the Minuteman volunteer said. "They hope some loose cannon lets the air out of somebody. And I see people walking around here with guns strapped on when there is no need for it."

Davis expects to be leading an eight-person patrol in the desert in the days ahead, yet he has some trepidation.

He spends every day tracking animals in the barren landscape here. He routinely comes across illegal immigrants and calls in the Border Patrol.

"I go out every day of the year, but some of these guys are businessmen," he said. "They shouldn't be carrying a box of rocks, let alone a gun."
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
81
I guess I don't understand what your problem is with this. Sounds to me like you are opposed to people defending thier homes and lives.....I guess who ever invades your home will have a field day because you 'll just lie ther like a coward and let them run all over you and take what they want....I pitty your family....you know, the ones you are supposed to defend and protect....they are so doomed.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Wheezer
I guess I don't understand what your problem is with this. Sounds to me like you are opposed to people defending thier homes and lives.....I guess who ever invades your home will have a field day because you 'll just lie ther like a coward and let them run all over you and take what they want....I pitty your family....you know, the ones you are supposed to defend and protect....they are so doomed.

The wussification of America, aren't you thrilled???

 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Friend went down and thought it was one of the coolest things... an old wild west tourist town was full of demonstrators, counter-demostrators, spectators, Arizona Rangers, police, Minutemen, hundreds of media from around the world and everything in-between. He said it was like a circus... with the mayor and businesses smiling broadly at the revenue coming in and exposure, some east coast limp-wristed journalist questioning the sheriff about people having guns ("well sir, you're allowed to wear them down here"), and some dude from Denmark of all places fully thriving and telling my friend in amazement that he wants to move to the US.

Personally, I think it's a good symbolic gesture and something definately needs to happen down there. It's a protest, but a protest that actually helps deal with the problem.... unlike the grungy dunces that scream in the streets, fight with cops, and bang their pots and pans.

I do some hunting down there near the border and if someone knows a public site I can upload some pictures I took on my last trip that would probably surprise some of you.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Friend went down and thought it was one of the coolest things... an old wild west tourist town was full of demonstrators, counter-demostrators, spectators, Arizona Rangers, police, Minutemen, hundreds of media from around the world and everything in-between. He said it was like a circus... with the mayor and businesses smiling broadly at the revenue coming in and exposure, some east coast limp-wristed journalist questioning the sheriff about people having guns ("well sir, you're allowed to wear them down here"), and some dude from Denmark of all places fully thriving and telling my friend in amazement that he wants to move to the US.

Personally, I think it's a good symbolic gesture and something definately needs to happen down there. It's a protest, but a protest that actually helps deal with the problem.... unlike the grungy dunces that scream in the streets, fight with cops, and bang their pots and pans.

I do some hunting down there near the border and if someone knows a public site I can upload some pictures I took on my last trip that would probably surprise some of you.
Hunting humans again, eh? That doesn't surprise me. Really. I kinda picture you as a cross between Ann Coulter and Hunter S. Thompson, out there blowin' down dirty hippies left and right.

Oh, and I love how you characterize the east coast journalist who questions the wisdom of letting vigilantes run around with guns strapped to their belts as gay and the anti-war protestors as dirty morons. Nice touch.
 

datalink7

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
16,765
6
81
I don't see a problem with it if they are just reporting sightings to the border patrol.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Hunting humans! Isn't that, like... illegal? Actually I hunt deer and javelina in some areas 15-30 miles from the border. There is so much trash from illegals in that country it's crazy. There's abandoned vehicles everywhere and I occasionally come across little stashes where there's backpacks, shoes, food, water, and other stuff. I'll see a lone illegal or two every once in a while lurking about, but the last trip I made I was walking over some hilly areas and came within 20 feet of about 12-15 illegals walking single file over a trail. We both surprised each other and they just sort of nodded and kept going. I took a couple pictures of that too.

I'm glad you like my characterizations but I'd disagree with using the term vigilante. Like someone else said it's pretty much like a giant blockwatch. It's more statement and symbolic than anything else. In that respect it's an undeniable success.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Border Patrol Complains About Volunteers

These guys are upsetting the border patrol, triggering alarms and stuff, and disrupting normal operations.

I say BS. The border patrol in the southern US is a joke. They don't stop crap. 2 million/year, and they're complaining about people disrupting them? Nonsense, because the government _does not give a crap_ about illegal immigration in the US. Oh it makes a show of it, but really it doesn't care at all. I commend these people for doing _something_ against the sea of political apathy. Most Americans hate this illegal immigration. That's consistnetly backed up in polls, so it's nice to see some doing something.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Border Patrol Complains About Volunteers

These guys are upsetting the border patrol, triggering alarms and stuff, and disrupting normal operations.

I say BS. The border patrol in the southern US is a joke. They don't stop crap. 2 million/year, and they're complaining about people disrupting them? Nonsense, because the government _does not give a crap_ about illegal immigration in the US. Oh it makes a show of it, but really it doesn't care at all. I commend these people for doing _something_ against the sea of political apathy. Most Americans hate this illegal immigration. That's consistnetly backed up in polls, so it's nice to see some doing something.

Wait - illegal immigration provides a huge pool of cheap labour, and depresses wages of all unskilled and semi-skilled labourers in the nation... and the pro-business government doesn't mind? What a shock!!

Newsflash: Illegal immigration is good for business - just ask Walmart It isn't 'apathy' it's a conscious decision to let it happen.

(To be fair; this isn't a 'Bush' comment in any way; if you can find a government in North America that doesn't favour businesses over other interests, I'll be impressed).
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Border Patrol Complains About Volunteers

These guys are upsetting the border patrol, triggering alarms and stuff, and disrupting normal operations.

I say BS. The border patrol in the southern US is a joke. They don't stop crap. 2 million/year, and they're complaining about people disrupting them? Nonsense, because the government _does not give a crap_ about illegal immigration in the US. Oh it makes a show of it, but really it doesn't care at all. I commend these people for doing _something_ against the sea of political apathy. Most Americans hate this illegal immigration. That's consistnetly backed up in polls, so it's nice to see some doing something.

Wait - illegal immigration provides a huge pool of cheap labour, and depresses wages of all unskilled and semi-skilled labourers in the nation... and the pro-business government doesn't mind? What a shock!!

Newsflash: Illegal immigration is good for business - just ask Walmart It isn't 'apathy' it's a conscious decision to let it happen.

(To be fair; this isn't a 'Bush' comment in any way; if you can find a government in North America that doesn't favour businesses over other interests, I'll be impressed).

Studies have shown that illegal immigration is a huge burden on the economy and infrastructure of this country. California's $9 billion debt is a result of the illegal immigration, at least partially. You cannot ignore the harm illegals do to this country. And I'm not even touching the subject of crime, which is commited by a signifant percent of illegals.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Wait - illegal immigration provides a huge pool of cheap labour, and depresses wages of all unskilled and semi-skilled labourers in the nation... and the pro-business government doesn't mind? What a shock!!

Newsflash: Illegal immigration is good for business - just ask Walmart It isn't 'apathy' it's a conscious decision to let it happen.

(To be fair; this isn't a 'Bush' comment in any way; if you can find a government in North America that doesn't favour businesses over other interests, I'll be impressed).
Yes, it's unfortunately the government consistently doing what it wants, and not what the people want. This separation of leaders and leaded is not very good.
Studies have shown that illegal immigration is a huge burden on the economy and infrastructure of this country. California's $9 billion debt is a result of the illegal immigration, at least partially. You cannot ignore the harm illegals do to this country. And I'm not even touching the subject of crime, which is commited by a signifant percent of illegals.
That is right, but he is right that it's good for some big business, like those big companies that employ all these illegals. From a monetary standpoint for the rest of us it's impossible to dispute the degredation that poorly educated, low-skill illegals contribute to the economy and society.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Wait - illegal immigration provides a huge pool of cheap labour, and depresses wages of all unskilled and semi-skilled labourers in the nation... and the pro-business government doesn't mind? What a shock!!

Newsflash: Illegal immigration is good for business - just ask Walmart It isn't 'apathy' it's a conscious decision to let it happen.

(To be fair; this isn't a 'Bush' comment in any way; if you can find a government in North America that doesn't favour businesses over other interests, I'll be impressed).
Yes, it's unfortunately the government consistently doing what it wants, and not what the people want. This separation of leaders and leaded is not very good.
Studies have shown that illegal immigration is a huge burden on the economy and infrastructure of this country. California's $9 billion debt is a result of the illegal immigration, at least partially. You cannot ignore the harm illegals do to this country. And I'm not even touching the subject of crime, which is commited by a signifant percent of illegals.
That is right, but he is right that it's good for some big business, like those big companies that employ all these illegals. From a monetary standpoint for the rest of us it's impossible to dispute the degredation that poorly educated, low-skill illegals contribute to the economy and society.
Exactly - the burden on the economy doesn't matter to the businesses who benefit from cheap labour. Under corrupt government, things like balanced budgets aren't too important; what matters is changing the playing field to bring as much economic production into the hands of the elite as possible:

Larger labour force >> lower real wages >> higher rental price of capital >> owners of capital increase their share of production, by manipulating otherwise 'natural' market forces through government.

Now to be fair, this large labour force and higher short-term price of capital would be the natural outcome of international free trade, as well (again - short term), and it requires some measure of socialist thinking to believe that all of America (or any other developed nation) has participated in the accumulation of a capital stock capable of supporting the current standards of living.

I have no trouble finding at least partial support for such a notion, but others may believe it is wholly communist and unfair (this would be the "But it's my money" argument; perfectly valid, if a little ignorant about "why you have your money").

At any rate, I'm going to side with Dissipate here and tell the vigilantes (tongue very much in cheek) they would be better off marching on Washington than patrolling the border.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I am rather surprised by the liberal media's reaction to all of this. Apparently their hatred of white men is stronger than of President Bush. I would have thought they would be all over this blaming Bush for not protecting our borders. Instead all I hear is a backlash from the elite.

But who do you think will be front and center when Dallas goes up in a puff of nuclear smoke complaining Bush didnt do enough?

Oh you know the answer!

 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
I am rather surprised by the liberal media's reaction to all of this. Apparently their hatred of white men is stronger than of President Bush. I would have thought they would be all over this blaming Bush for not protecting our borders. Instead all I hear is a backlash from the elite.

But who do you think will be front and center when Dallas goes up in a puff of nuclear smoke complaining Bush didnt do enough?

Oh you know the answer!

Bush's blame in all of this is self-evident. It goes w/o saying.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
31
91
It is a felony to come into this country illegally and our government is doing very little to stop it. If the government was turning a blind eye to murder or rape would you have a problem with 'the people' doing something about the murderers and rapists? I don't understand how anyone could be against what these people are doing. They are simply filling the holes along the border and relaying information to the official border patrol. Where's the problem?

 

Sunbird

Golden Member
Jul 20, 2001
1,024
2
81
If I were president. I'd invade Mexico, make it the 51st state and protect the much smaller southern border they have.

I don't think the Mexicans (general populace) would resist that much, since there is not a religious or historic animosity like the whole Iraq thing.

Heck, maybe even go all the way to Panama, since they have the smallest border that seperates them from the South American continental mass.

Then I'd start to eye Canada....... :evil:
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Border Patrol Complains About Volunteers

These guys are upsetting the border patrol, triggering alarms and stuff, and disrupting normal operations.

I say BS. The border patrol in the southern US is a joke. They don't stop crap. 2 million/year, and they're complaining about people disrupting them? Nonsense, because the government _does not give a crap_ about illegal immigration in the US. Oh it makes a show of it, but really it doesn't care at all. I commend these people for doing _something_ against the sea of political apathy. Most Americans hate this illegal immigration. That's consistnetly backed up in polls, so it's nice to see some doing something.

Disrupting their coffee break to go round up some ILLEGAL immigrants... dasm... and here I thought that was their JOB... *shrug*

CsG
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Good. The OP's a fsckin' idiot. Illegal immigration is (guess what?) illegal. I knew the fsckin' liberal left had gone off the deep edge with the whole immigration issue when I was reading an article in the local liberal rag Willamette Week (which just won a Pulitzer btw) that called illegal immigrants convicted of violent felonies who are residing inside the state pen (guess what again?) "undocumented workers". Idiots :roll:

Illegal immigration only helps big business by providing a large low-cost workforce. IMO this is why ICE under the Bush Admin is not properly defending our borders, even when the Mexican government itself calls the current scenario "la reconquista" (the Re-Conquest). That leftist liberals cozy up with the Bush Admin in this blatant violation of our laws and uses their bullsh!t PC speak to call the fight against illegal immigration "racist" simply shows how skewed their values are. Those people the OP criticizes are defending our country against the ONLY real threat that faces it now, and they are doing it in pure democratic style simply because our government will not follow the express will of the people.
 
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