On the Tyranny of the Majority in posting on a Left-leaning forum:

[Moonbeam]

This is precisely why the :eyeroll: reaction should not have been removed.

How about, 'Let he who is without worldly concerns cast the first pseudo-psychoanalysis.'

I had replied to your rambling OP in at least partial agreement, and explanation of such. And still...you feel it necessary to condescend to me about how I think and feel, because of course Moonpie knows better than anyone how every other single individual on Earth thinks and feels, and why (because childhood putdowns bullshit etc).

You are not as clever or wise as you like to think, and you have nothing to say or offer that is new or hasn't been seen before. I've had friends who thought and spoke as you do when they were teenagers. Then they moved past their psycho-spiritual introversion and decided to live in the real world. You just want to project yours at everyone else (ie extroversion).

My 'open mind' has seen enough of this over 3 decades. No more for you, because you deposit nothing of value; just more of the same old broken record.

I liked the post you made where you thought my reply condescending.

I attempt to relate what I regard as the truth that the reason humanity is so fucked up is because we are in denial that we hate ourselves. If we did know that it would change everything. That’s the good news. The bad news is that because we hate ourselves we hate anybody with good news.

More good news: Self awareness can set you free.

The bad news is that good news requires some level of psychological sophistication to take in. The bad news,then, is that like the ignorance of conservatives everywhere the psychological denialist will cry, fake news, or more specifically as you have, psycho-spiritual inversion etc.

Relax. Nobody is going to be able to force you to see anything. Your tea cup is full

 

[Captante]

Relax. Nobody is going to be able to force you to see anything. Your tea cup is full

And YOUR tea-cup is full of hot air and not much else.

I value his opinion EXPONENTIALLY more than I value yours.

 

[Pontius Dilate]

Relax. Nobody is going to be able to force you to see anything. Your tea cup is full

I would summarize the Moonbeam Hypothesis thusly:

• Every human being who has ever felt they were put down as a child, i.e. every human being, suffers from a profound psychological illness.
• This illness affects your entire life, the way you view and communicate with other people, your politics, your morality, your understanding of reality.
• In order to be healed you must have a specific kind of experience that opens your eyes, awakens you, brings you into contact with the void, silences all the voices, or choose another metaphor that connotes a unique mystical or religious experience which changes you or reveals something to you, or does something or nothing else entirely.
• The illness itself prevents you from easily understanding that you suffer from it; therefore if you don't think you have this illness, or don't believe that this illness really exists, you definitely suffer from this illness.
• Moonbeam no longer suffers from this illness, having had the requisite healing experience.

I sincerely don't know what you expect anyone to do with this. In most threads in which you participate you end up referencing your hypothesis as the reason for the subject of the thread, and/or as the reason for the nature of the discussion itself. You frequently use it to explain why people either fail to understand you or disagree with you. They're sick after all. It's exactly what you've been talking about this whole time.

Given this, maybe it would be more useful for you to explain what this forum would look like if everybody wasn't sick, or perhaps more simply if there wasn't a tyranny of the majority. How would it work? What would happen that currently doesn't happen? What wouldn't happen that currently does? Are you aware of any forum that hews closer to your ideals?

 

[Moonbeam]

Pontius Dilate: I would summarize the Moonbeam Hypothesis thusly:

• Every human being who has ever felt they were put down as a child, i.e. every human being, suffers from a profound psychological illness.
• This illness affects your entire life, the way you view and communicate with other people, your politics, your morality, your understanding of reality.
• In order to be healed you must have a specific kind of experience that opens your eyes, awakens you, brings you into contact with the void, silences all the voices, or choose another metaphor that connotes a unique mystical or religious experience which changes you or reveals something to you, or does something or nothing else entirely.
• The illness itself prevents you from easily understanding that you suffer from it; therefore if you don't think you have this illness, or don't believe that this illness really exists, you definitely suffer from this illness.
• Moonbeam no longer suffers from this illness, having had the requisite healing experience.

--------------------------------

First of all I want to acknowledge the effort you put into your post and to respond with that sense of appreciation.

I would amend your summary as follows:

• Every human being who has learned to associate words with negative experience, by being put down through the use of the concept transmitting power of language has learned by process of association with the behavior criticized at the point of being put down not that it is the behavior being manifested in that moment but instead that it is the child, the child's sense of self identity that is being put down. He can't separate the inappropriateness of behavior with being defective him or herself.
• This illness affects your entire life, the way you view and communicate with other people, your politics, your morality, your understanding of reality. It is an illness of belief. There is no real illness other than the belief that there is.
• In order to be begin to challenge this illusion of illness, the feeling that it is you who are worthless but actually aren't, in order to begin to be able to heal, specific kind of experience will help. These counterweights to the feeling one is worthless take many forms and descriptions, knowable only to those who experience them which confuses those who have not.
• The illness itself prevents you from easily understanding that you suffer from it because what we feel but won't allow ourselves to know that we feel means we are terrified of real help. This is the root of denial, the effort we make to prevent our unconscious self loathing from surfacing into the light of day because we actually believe that lie.
• Moonbeam is aware that he suffers from this illness because he is aware of his own self hate. It is natural for people who depend on the delusional value of their egos to feel a constant threat that others are out to prove their own egos to be superior to theirs. This is an example of psychological projection.

-------------------------------------------
PD: I sincerely don't know what you expect anyone to do with this. In most threads in which you participate you end up referencing your hypothesis as the reason for the subject of the thread, and/or as the reason for the nature of the discussion itself. You frequently use it to explain why people either fail to understand you or disagree with you. They're sick after all. It's exactly what you've been talking about this whole time.
---------------------------
People who are afraid to know they hate themselves, not so much to know that they do, but to actually relive the pain of childhood experience all over again, are driven by an irrational fear. That fear is prevented from surfacing by the powerful armor of ego. Ego is there to deny by being our most sacred treasure. Ego says I am not just good but fantastic thereby blocking any hope for real insight. What I attempt to do is demonstrate to people how deeply they cling to belief. Liberals, conservatives certain about everything when it threatens their blissfully ignorant ego state. Humility is the cure. But the fear of uncertainty creates all manner of hate.

----------------------------------
PD: Given this, maybe it would be more useful for you to explain what this forum would look like if everybody wasn't sick, or perhaps more simply if there wasn't a tyranny of the majority. How would it work? What would happen that currently doesn't happen? What wouldn't happen that currently does? Are you aware of any forum that hews closer to your ideals?
--------------------------------------

I would only say that I like that you used the word 'maybe'. Let's seek to find out. How would I know? Not much to gain from hypotheticals.

So right back in a circle: When the ego seeks truth it seeks it for egotistical reasons. The truth can only be known absent that kind of egotism. To know is to be ignorant. The ego will never will its own death. You can do nothing. The situation is utterly hopeless. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Zor Prime]

Moonbeam is legit the only person that can write stuff that I can identify who wrote it without looking at the user handle.

 

[woolfe9998]

Pontius Dilate: I would summarize the Moonbeam Hypothesis thusly:

• Every human being who has ever felt they were put down as a child, i.e. every human being, suffers from a profound psychological illness.
• This illness affects your entire life, the way you view and communicate with other people, your politics, your morality, your understanding of reality.
• In order to be healed you must have a specific kind of experience that opens your eyes, awakens you, brings you into contact with the void, silences all the voices, or choose another metaphor that connotes a unique mystical or religious experience which changes you or reveals something to you, or does something or nothing else entirely.
• The illness itself prevents you from easily understanding that you suffer from it; therefore if you don't think you have this illness, or don't believe that this illness really exists, you definitely suffer from this illness.
• Moonbeam no longer suffers from this illness, having had the requisite healing experience.

--------------------------------

First of all I want to acknowledge the effort you put into your post and to respond with that sense of appreciation.

I would amend your summary as follows:

• Every human being who has learned to associate words with negative experience, by being put down through the use of the concept transmitting power of language has learned by process of association with the behavior criticized at the point of being put down not that it is the behavior being manifested in that moment but instead that it is the child, the child's sense of self identity that is being put down. He can't separate the inappropriateness of behavior with being defective him or herself.
• This illness affects your entire life, the way you view and communicate with other people, your politics, your morality, your understanding of reality. It is an illness of belief. There is no real illness other than the belief that there is.
• In order to be begin to challenge this illusion of illness, the feeling that it is you who are worthless but actually aren't, in order to begin to be able to heal, specific kind of experience will help. These counterweights to the feeling one is worthless take many forms and descriptions, knowable only to those who experience them which confuses those who have not.
• The illness itself prevents you from easily understanding that you suffer from it because what we feel but won't allow ourselves to know that we feel means we are terrified of real help. This is the root of denial, the effort we make to prevent our unconscious self loathing from surfacing into the light of day because we actually believe that lie.
• Moonbeam is aware that he suffers from this illness because he is aware of his own self hate. It is natural for people who depend on the delusional value of their egos to feel a constant threat that others are out to prove their own egos to be superior to theirs. This is an example of psychological projection.

-------------------------------------------
PD: I sincerely don't know what you expect anyone to do with this. In most threads in which you participate you end up referencing your hypothesis as the reason for the subject of the thread, and/or as the reason for the nature of the discussion itself. You frequently use it to explain why people either fail to understand you or disagree with you. They're sick after all. It's exactly what you've been talking about this whole time.
---------------------------
People who are afraid to know they hate themselves, not so much to know that they do, but to actually relive the pain of childhood experience all over again, are driven by an irrational fear. That fear is prevented from surfacing by the powerful armor of ego. Ego is there to deny by being our most sacred treasure. Ego says I am not just good but fantastic thereby blocking any hope for real insight. What I attempt to do is demonstrate to people how deeply they cling to belief. Liberals, conservatives certain about everything when it threatens their blissfully ignorant ego state. Humility is the cure. But the fear of uncertainty creates all manner of hate.

----------------------------------
PD: Given this, maybe it would be more useful for you to explain what this forum would look like if everybody wasn't sick, or perhaps more simply if there wasn't a tyranny of the majority. How would it work? What would happen that currently doesn't happen? What wouldn't happen that currently does? Are you aware of any forum that hews closer to your ideals?
--------------------------------------

I would only say that I like that you used the word 'maybe'. Let's seek to find out. How would I know? Not much to gain from hypotheticals.

So right back in a circle: When the ego seeks truth it seeks it for egotistical reasons. The truth can only be known absent that kind of egotism. To know is to be ignorant. The ego will never will its own death. You can do nothing. The situation is utterly hopeless. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Yeah, the problem as I see it is this. You don't really recommend any particular course of action. You don't recommend reading certain books, getting a certain kind of therapy, meditation, or anything which could specifically help with the problem you identify. That's why you've been saying all this for 15+ years here and no one has come out said they've benefitted from it, because no one really knows what you're suggesting we do.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yeah, the problem as I see it is this. You don't really recommend any particular course of action. You don't recommend reading certain books, getting a certain kind of therapy, meditation, or anything which could specifically help with the problem you identify. That's why you've been saying all this for 15+ years here and no one has come out said they've benefitted from it, because no one really knows what you're suggesting we do.

As I see it all of politics is about claims of what we can and should do, about the evil of any path but one's own. There is no answers for others. Stop believing in one. We know nothing. But we are afraid and full of hate and that generates all that need. You are frustrated because I won't tell you what to do, but there is only one thing you can do and it is to stop thinking there is something you can do. And you can only do that yourself. I can't make you stop thinking there is something you can do. I can only tell you there is nothing I can do and we are all the same. There are two classes of knowing. Class one is all the billions of people who need to believe there is something we can do and have billions of answers as to what that should be, and the rest who no longer have that need realizing its futility.

Why do you go on vacation, why do we seek idyllic moments, why do we strive to be at one in the moment? What is it that keeps every moment from being like that.

Here is but one example of this idea being expressed but the religious context is incidental:

https://www.openbible.info/topics/consider_the_lilies_of_the_field

Nowhere to go, nothing to do, nothing to become. It is all right here right now denied to us because we were told we don't deserve to be able to feel it. Except as you are like a child in openness and trust, capable of expressing your love for and joy in being, you have shut to door on this feeling, and why other than you know exactly what happens to the loving trusting naive, crucifixion, no?

I used to cling to all that religious shit in the hope my suffering would be lifted in heaven and real justice and equality would be revealed. But I was a skeptic and picked it all apart and threw myself into hell. But I was I guess a bigger skeptic than most, because for me it didn't end there. I became skeptical of everything I believed and saw that was bull shit too. That changed my psychological state. The wind woke me up and there I I call I disappeared. For a moment, everything perfect. I understood and now even lost again, I can't forget. There is a truth out there, in here, and it's a big one. It can happen to those who have the humility to deny believing in themselves, their ego selves our thousand tons of cabbage that we treasure more than gold.

 

[vjeltz]

Moonbeam,

I want to start by saying that I enjoy seeing your point of view across this forum. However, I wonder if you have considered that truth could be an illusion?

What if truth is like a bird gathering its nest. Each twig, twine or bramble a new truth added to the firmament until the nest is ready. Ready for the egg, ready for new life, ready to be born again into the world. But the hatchling will soon learn that the firmament of the nest is only temporary. Soon destroyed by the gathering wind. The young bird is forced to find new truth, to build yet another nest. However, that nest will eventually fall, its offspring released onto the world. Each nest is built of pieces of “Truth”, each destined to return to the wind.

I challenge you Moonbeam to see that the “Truth” does not exist. That it can never be found or granted. It can never be lost, traded or even relied upon. What happens when you realize that your premise is untrue? Can you accept that? Can you even accept the possibility of that?

If we were to take Moonbeam and hang him over the void, what strings of “Truth” might he grasp for? How long can you allow yourself to be suspended in a place of no truth, no answers, of no definitive direction or purpose?

I posit that you may already realize some of this. That is why you never offer any direction to others and only call them out in light of your “Truth”.

So I dare you Moonbeam to spend some time pondering what the world would look like if everything you say wasn’t true.

 

[Moonbeam]

Moonbeam,

I want to start by saying that I enjoy seeing your point of view across this forum. However, I wonder if you have considered that truth could be an illusion?

What if truth is like a bird gathering its nest. Each twig, twine or bramble a new truth added to the firmament until the nest is ready. Ready for the egg, ready for new life, ready to be born again into the world. But the hatchling will soon learn that the firmament of the nest is only temporary. Soon destroyed by the gathering wind. The young bird is forced to find new truth, to build yet another nest. However, that nest will eventually fall, its offspring released onto the world. Each nest is built of pieces of “Truth”, each destined to return to the wind.

I challenge you Moonbeam to see that the “Truth” does not exist. That it can never be found or granted. It can never be lost, traded or even relied upon. What happens when you realize that your premise is untrue? Can you accept that? Can you even accept the possibility of that?

If we were to take Moonbeam and hang him over the void, what strings of “Truth” might he grasp for? How long can you allow yourself to be suspended in a place of no truth, no answers, of no definitive direction or purpose?

I posit that you may already realize some of this. That is why you never offer any direction to others and only call them out in light of your “Truth”.

So I dare you Moonbeam to spend some time pondering what the world would look like if everything you say wasn’t true.

Nothing I say is the truth. What I say are words that point to the possibility that over and over geographically and historically people have experienced and will experience tomorrow a state of unity in which the observer snd the observed are one and the same.

In such a state of oneness Creator and Creation happen simultaneously. This is what Alpha and Omega mean. But those again are only words. If you have had the experience the words may make some sense. If not they won’t make sense at all.

 

[woolfe9998]

As I see it all of politics is about claims of what we can and should do, about the evil of any path but one's own. There is no answers for others. Stop believing in one. We know nothing. But we are afraid and full of hate and that generates all that need. You are frustrated because I won't tell you what to do, but there is only one thing you can do and it is to stop thinking there is something you can do. And you can only do that yourself. I can't make you stop thinking there is something you can do. I can only tell you there is nothing I can do and we are all the same. There are two classes of knowing. Class one is all the billions of people who need to believe there is something we can do and have billions of answers as to what that should be, and the rest who no longer have that need realizing its futility.

No, I do not think there is something I can do. You've identified what you think is a core problem in human nature, or at least, human nature filtered through social experience. I'm not entirely sure that you're even right about the problem, or you might be partially but not wholly correct. But I also tend to doubt there is anything we can do because we're talking about something seeded pretty deep in our pscyhes. I suspect, rather, that you are talking about a problem with no real solution, which is why you keep talking about the problem and not offering any.

Why do you go on vacation, why do we seek idyllic moments, why do we strive to be at one in the moment? What is it that keeps every moment from being like that.

Here is but one example of this idea being expressed but the religious context is incidental:

https://www.openbible.info/topics/consider_the_lilies_of_the_field

Nowhere to go, nothing to do, nothing to become. It is all right here right now denied to us because we were told we don't deserve to be able to feel it. Except as you are like a child in openness and trust, capable of expressing your love for and joy in being, you have shut to door on this feeling, and why other than you know exactly what happens to the loving trusting naive, crucifixion, no?

I used to cling to all that religious shit in the hope my suffering would be lifted in heaven and real justice and equality would be revealed. But I was a skeptic and picked it all apart and threw myself into hell. But I was I guess a bigger skeptic than most, because for me it didn't end there. I became skeptical of everything I believed and saw that was bull shit too. That changed my psychological state. The wind woke me up and there I I call I disappeared. For a moment, everything perfect. I understood and now even lost again, I can't forget. There is a truth out there, in here, and it's a big one. It can happen to those who have the humility to deny believing in themselves, their ego selves our thousand tons of cabbage that we treasure more than gold.

"When the doors of perception are cleansed, man can see reality as it truly is, infinite."

Too bad we can't cleanse them without serious brain damage. Maybe a fleeting moment during Zen meditation.

I already know that it's all bullshit, BTW. Our entire society, all societies, are based on a foundation of it. We're not who we say we are. Most of what humans do socially is a form of acting. If it's convincing, then maybe it's method acting. The truth is, we're just animals.

Honestly, I prefer to think about that less. It just leads to misanthropy and nihilism.

 

[vjeltz]

Nothing I say is the truth. What I say are words that point to the possibility that over and over geographically and historically people have experienced and will experience tomorrow a state of unity in which the observer snd the observed are one and the same.

In such a state of oneness Creator and Creation happen simultaneously. This is what Alpha and Omega mean. But those again are only words. If you have had the experience the words may make some sense. If not they won’t make sense at all.

I am well aware of what you are saying. There are many words to describe it and it has been experienced by many people. You refer to theosis, bodhi, metanoia, satori…..

Although, you have not appeared to have considered what I have asked. Do you know why that is? Or maybe that is your answer, that none should pay you any heed as all you speak are untruths?

 

[Moonbeam]

No, I do not think there is something I can do. You've identified what you think is a core problem in human nature, or at least, human nature filtered through social experience. I'm not entirely sure that you're even right about the problem, or you might be partially but not wholly correct. But I also tend to doubt there is anything we can do because we're talking about something seeded pretty deep in our pscyhes. I suspect, rather, that you are talking about a problem with no real solution, which is why you keep talking about the problem and not offering any.

I am saying there is no problem but the belief that there is. I am saying we can't do anything about it because the we we imagine we are is the problem and the problem is that we do not want a solution so the unconscious motivation not to find one while believing we are sincere in our search means we will never find a solution via that route. I am saying that when you see the game, the self delusion, then a solution becomes possible, but it is not possible via an act of will. It requires sincerity and an element of chance, an external shock, a bottoming out etc.

"When the doors of perception are cleansed, man can see reality as it truly is, infinite."

Too bad we can't cleanse them without serious brain damage. Maybe a fleeting moment during Zen meditation.

These are assumptions you make, things you believe part of ego gaming

I already know that it's all bullshit, BTW. Our entire society, all societies, are based on a foundation of it. We're not who we say we are. Most of what humans do socially is a form of acting. If it's convincing, then maybe it's method acting. The truth is, we're just animals.

Here you have an unconscious association with what the human animal is. It is based on the reception your human animal child got for feeling itself to be the center of the universe. It is the animal with the greatest capacity of all animals to experience the joy of being.

Honestly, I prefer to think about that less. It just leads to misanthropy and nihilism.

Because of attitude. Misanthropy and nihilism, as I have suggested for years, is what we really feel, the lie we were told to believe. You already feel it is true. Everything you fear has already happened. Any of this sound familiar?

 

[Moonbeam]

I am well aware of what you are saying. There are many words to describe it and it has been experienced by many people. You refer to theosis, bodhi, metanoia, satori…..

Although, you have not appeared to have considered what I have asked. Do you know why that is? Or maybe that is your answer, that none should pay you any heed as all you speak are untruths?

Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about everything. But so far, even thought I have suggested that I do not speak the truth but only point to the possibility that one may experience a conscious state that ends questions, you have countered only with a suggestions as to how I appear to you. Perhaps were you to elaborate on what the point you want to make is I could better focus my attention. I can try to listen but only to the level that I can, a level that is invisible to me.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Moonbeam. Moonbeam is a phe-nom-e-non . . .

 

[vjeltz]

Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about everything. But so far, even thought I have suggested that I do not speak the truth but only point to the possibility that one may experience a conscious state that ends questions, you have countered only with a suggestions as to how I appear to you. Perhaps were you to elaborate on what the point you want to make is I could better focus my attention. I can try to listen but only to the level that I can, a level that is invisible to me.

Oh Moonbeam, why do you think you are wrong? From what I can see you are very right indeed. However, you seem to be confusing right and wrong with truth and untruth.

There is a line of thought that ego doesn’t exist, that it is simply a figment of the mind. Opposite the fake ego exists the real exo. The exo is how others perceive us, the model that everyone who interacts with us uses to define who we are.

This would be a similar concept to centripetal and centrifugal force. The outward force of your ego represents the fake centrifugal force pushing out, projecting from you. The exo is the real force of others' representation of you pushing inward, like the real centripetal force directed toward your center.

So why am I telling you this?

You appear to me to be doing ego work here on these forums. This is based on your more recent vaguely shifting positions on several key cultural and political points. This vacillation resembles basic ego work or possible early signs of schizophrenia.

Secondly, and I wouldn’t tell you this if it wasn’t to help you understand your exo. To me, you appear like a plastic shaman. I see this in your use of empty and deflective language. In your continued references to a magical state that only you understand; not to diminish your experience as I know it was beyond words. Most importantly though is that if everyone else would simply be more like you, then the world would be a perfect place. In fact you reference this sickness in others quite frequently. However, I don’t see you as a complete plastic shaman as you have not yet started gathering up unsuspecting people. I would keep an eye on that if I were you though. ;-)

I also see a bit of magusitis in you as well. That is an affliction of the ego, and I thought at some level you may be aware of this and that’s why you are doing ego work.

Thirdly, that which is usually silent but should more often be said. I see you as a deep, compassionate and caring individual. I see someone who enjoys interacting with others and in a very real way wants to help. I see a dreamer, an explorer of both people and ideas. You are curious and spry, never broken, only transformed.

You grieve for the lost wishing beauty on all. You are noble, wise and more brilliant than the light of the full moon.

Everything I have provided to you has been to help you move your ego work past the more superficial. I wish you the best and would be happy to discuss in as little or as much detail as you will.

 

[Moonbeam]

Replying to this post is for me no easy matter. I have so many reactions I don't know where to begin, or maybe more like can I avoid a book.

@vjeltz : Oh Moonbeam, why do you think you are wrong? From what I can see you are very right indeed. However, you seem to be confusing right and wrong with truth and untruth.

M: When you said: "Or maybe that is your answer, that none should pay you any heed as all you speak are untruths" I took that to mean that you were suggesting I speak untruths rather than that is what my words imply about my worries about me.

I find that when I try to explain things to others I have some confidence but when it comes to me understanding what others say I have a great deal of trouble. This could be one of those times. As with everything there is a tendency to assume that one is reading the meaning someone else intended while missing it completely.

As to confusing right and wrong with truth and untruth it's not an idea I find as something I have ever thought about. I have not notices this as a possibility nor do I yet see its significance. When you mentioned this I googled the concept so as to avail myself of some ideas of what you imply and the idea seems to be out there and has been given some thought by others. I do feel, however, that there is philosophical and intellectual fruit to be had in thinking about the differences but I gave up on thinking a long time ago. The kind of thinking I see myself doing is putting words to what I am feeling, crystalizing the amorphous in order to express it to some degree, how to say what I feel truth is. What is the best way to use words for something words alone can't create by reading them.

v: There is a line of thought that ego doesn’t exist, that it is simply a figment of the mind. Opposite the fake ego exists the real exo. The exo is how others perceive us, the model that everyone who interacts with us uses to define who we are.

This would be a similar concept to centripetal and centrifugal force. The outward force of your ego represents the fake centrifugal force pushing out, projecting from you. The exo is the real force of others' representation of you pushing inward, like the real centripetal force directed toward your center.

M: I agree these two selves exist. But I have heard it put differently, the self I think I am, the self others think I am, and the self I really am. Now I may not know that third self but I believe it is real and have has experienced states of consciousness that suggest it.

v: So why am I telling you this?

You appear to me to be doing ego work here on these forums. This is based on your more recent vaguely shifting positions on several key cultural and political points. This vacillation resembles basic ego work or possible early signs of schizophrenia.

M: I think I might have a better chance of digesting this if I knew what these shifting positions are. I often express my belief that opposite sides of the coin being all part of the coin, have their own independent validity while ordinarily appearing to be opposite and not able to be reconciled.

v: Secondly, and I wouldn’t tell you this if it wasn’t to help you understand your exo. To me, you appear like a plastic shaman. I see this in your use of empty and deflective language. In your continued references to a magical state that only you understand; not to diminish your experience as I know it was beyond words. Most importantly though is that if everyone else would simply be more like you, then the world would be a perfect place. In fact you reference this sickness in others quite frequently. However, I don’t see you as a complete plastic shaman as you have not yet started gathering up unsuspecting people. I would keep an eye on that if I were you though. ;-)

M: I used to be a normal kid where questions about the meaning of life never entered my head before some strange obsession with honesty and my selfish egotism started to mess with my head. I figure it got to be a race between me and God to see who could see my faults first and, well omnipotence is kind of a challenge, so I think my solution was to kill Him. Well that didn't exactly work because hyper critical self inspection and self confrontation had sort of become habitual.

The result of losing my faith in God, however, meant that all of my naive dreams and deep longings that the good be real went down the toilet with Him. I suffered existentially a certainty of the hopeless meaninglessness of life and it hurt, it hurt tremendously. Everything of value was lost and with such conviction I knew I would never escape. I searched and searched for a way out and ran into Zen. That introduced to me an unexpected thought that awakened me to the fact that the meaningless of life is as meaningless as everything else.

Before I came to the understanding of the utter meaninglessness to the point where the worst thing in the world had arrived, hopelessness and suffering, That holding on to meaning was absolutely futile, I would never have been able to abandon that hidden assumption that meaning is necessary for happiness. I call that dying to the ego. Realizing that meaning was never real all those years in childhood when I was one with life itself changed the assumptions that had lain at the ground of my being.

Then I met a therapist who had arrived by a different path. He had rooted out assumptions at a much deeper level, back to the age of 6 months and knew them all to be lies he no longer believed. I glimpsed something. He saw it all permanently because of the degree to which he had brought to consciousness all we hide hope to hide.

So because I had understood that one unconscious belief I carried was the source of existential despair that had been inculcated in me from without, and for him the realization that we have bought into the a sense of worthlessness derived form the put downs of others, I am not so very interested in what you cal exo. That is just being programmed by other programmed machines. Not their fault but they are still full of prunes. Everything that says we are of value can't be heard as anything but a threat, beyond the initial sense of flattering.

v: I also see a bit of magusitis in you as well. That is an affliction of the ego, and I thought at some level you may be aware of this and that’s why you are doing ego work.

M: I looked that up and while I have no problem with the concept itself I am a bit troubled by what I found that seems to be the source. I am not free of ego. I think I am somewhat immune to taking myself too seriously, not in what I call truth, but in the notion that seeing something makes me special. I would have to say that I am totally unqualified as a spiritual guide to the light. I think that is a specialty had in order to have it you need to be able to walk it and mirror it to other people. I just stick with what I think of as something I know at least a bit about, how the fact that blindness is caused by thinking you know when you actually don't. I say that is true and not all that hard to see. The truth is concealed by it's immediate unlikelihood and you can provide sound logical reasons for why that is the only explanation for why people are blind.

Also, I don't think you can do ego work without a teacher at some point who can see beyond where you can and all the teachers I have known about are dead. I try to be as honest as I can with the knowledge that we lie to ourselves.

v: Thirdly, that which is usually silent but should more often be said. I see you as a deep, compassionate and caring individual. I see someone who enjoys interacting with others and in a very real way wants to help. I see a dreamer, an explorer of both people and ideas. You are curious and spry, never broken, only transformed.

You grieve for the lost wishing beauty on all. You are noble, wise and more brilliant than the light of the full moon.

Everything I have provided to you has been to help you move your ego work past the more superficial. I wish you the best and would be happy to discuss in as little or as much detail as you will.

M: People who hate themselves can't take complements. They wind up concluding the person who offers them is crazy. With that said I try to take what is offered knowing that feeling is there somewhere. Thank you.

The problem with everybody, in my opinion, is that they are terrified of trusting others. This can be life preserving and life destroying depending on the motives of those they might open themselves. That word, 'magusitis' I want to say triggered some alarm bells. But I know how stereotyping can be dangerous, my general reason for my posting such warnings. And I am not very confident I have a lot of time to do any real work etc. Still I try to practice as best I can taking what is offered, hence this reply.

 

[Tsinni Dave]

The problem with everybody, in my opinion, is that they are terrified of trusting others.

I believe this was touched upon in the "conservative brain" thread of long ago. If IRC, people with conservative / right leaning beliefs have an exaggerated fear response, which would suggest that you may be seeing through your own lens and applying that lens to others whether they actually feel that fear or not.

 

[Moonbeam]

I believe this was touched upon in the "conservative brain" thread of long ago. If IRC, people with conservative / right leaning beliefs have an exaggerated fear response, which would suggest that you may be seeing through your own lens and applying that lens to others whether they actually feel that fear or not.

Sorry, I got stuck on IRC

As for seeing through your own lens, two modes of viewing can lead to that conclusion. We project onto others, see in them, want to see is true of us. Alternatively we can conclude that what we have seen in ourselves sometimes at great cost we can then see in others even if they do not. As to what I am doing, you can make up your own mind. Personally, I think I am farther to the left than most liberals. That is because I do not regard the authoritarian left as liberal. They are just to the left of the conservative spectrum, gripped by the fanaticism of certainty, not trust that truth really exists. As I said, we have trust issues. I do too. What we are absolutely sure of is that there is nothing wrong with us while the truth is that this certainty we feel is actually the terror of discovery we are in a state of denial that what we actually feel is the opposite, that we are the worst in the world. We are living the same big lie as Donald Trump, the narcissism of ego.

Hating him and only adds to the problem of seeing ourselves. If you can imagine what the world would look like if that were true, I think you would see the world as we actually find it, a world filled with sleep walking machines. Welcome to the machine.

 

[vjeltz]

Moonbeam,

I have been reading your posts for twenty years now. At one time I thought you were a fool and a lunatic. Now I see you only as a lunatic. I mean that with the deepest regard from one lunatic to another.

Words are a pale representation of our deepest thoughts. Communicating those thoughts to others through words is doubly as pale.

Words have so many meanings, so many interpretations, so much context. The point of truth is not to see it as an absolute; to see it as a string you grasp for in the void. There are many strings although you may not see them, the ones you see are your possible truths, the ones you grasp are your truth.

Your true self, an interesting concept and one that can be frightening to the uninitiated. I prefer to think of it as our true self in that we are not alone.

M: I think I might have a better chance of digesting this if I knew what these shifting positions are. I often express my belief that opposite sides of the coin being all part of the coin, have their own independent validity while ordinarily appearing to be opposite and not able to be reconciled.

Yes, that is the ego work I am talking about. Your efforts to equivocate opposite truths into a single coin. There has been a change in your veracity. However, this may simply be another artifact of our increased polarization. Either way, I am happy you found some value in reflecting on what I have shared. If something bothers you about being accused of magusitis I would highly suggest you spend some time reflecting on what specifically causes you discomfort.

I love to hear stories of how others have gone through their experience. What I find most interesting is no matter how people go in or how they end up on the other side they all convey the same experience. One, a realization that the world is not as it actually appears or how we have been told that it should appear. Two, a feeling of awakening or epiphany where there is a loss of identity resulting in experiencing something beyond words that represents a connection or unity among all things. Three, the realization that you are not who you thought you were and that there is a greater or more real you.

Myself, I was an *sshole. I didn’t really care about any of this mystic crap nor did I really care about anyone else. As far as I was concerned, they were all just extensions of me. And that worked out fairly well as far as worldly things are concerned. Until one day they got me. I can’t say I wasn’t warned. I can’t say I didn’t follow the whispers. But they got me and now I am, I am not what I was.

Be this a warning to all who read this, you may think you are immune, you may think they don’t know who you are. But they do and maybe, you’ll be next I wouldn’t worry too much though as what I say probably isn’t true anyway. ;-) LOL

There is beauty in our programming; a purpose in our ignorance. I am saddened that you cannot see it.

It may have been a good thing you have felt unqualified to be a spiritual guide to the light. This strong desire seems to often lead to very dark ends.

Are people blind because they cannot see what you see? I don’t think you are blind. I hope you do not think I am blind. We may see different strings but we are in the same void. To continue that particular image.

Teachers are overrated, your true guides are woven in your experience and greater than any proclaimed guru. Although you do need to choose to listen.

It can be hard to accept compliments. They are so often a way to placate; the preludes of control. Too many times empty and without meaning. However, what do we risk in rejection? What worlds will forever remain untouched when we reject the compliment? You are welcome.

I would like to respond to your original premise in this thread. As often happens I agree with some of what others have already stated. Everyone is free to voice their opinion here. To be free to speak does not mean you are free from response. There is a reason the minority opinion presents itself so vivaciously here. Maybe a reason similar to yours.

I am grateful for your reply. It has been an honor to converse with you. No one knows how much time they have left. These could be all our last breaths. It’s how we use the present. It is a gift after all. At least I think a turtle told me that once. ;-)

 

[Moonbeam]

Either way, I am happy you found some value in reflecting on what I have shared. If something bothers you about being accused of magusitis I would highly suggest you spend some time reflecting on what specifically causes you discomfort

With regard to this part of your post, I had to look the word up. one example:

Magusitis

“The Ego, a self-regulatory structure which maintains the fiction of being a unique self, doesn’t like the process of becoming more adaptive to experience. One of the more subtle defenses that it throws up is the sneaking suspicion (which can quickly become an obsession) is that you are better than everyone else. In some circles, this is known as Magusitis, and it is not unknown for those afflicted to declare themselves to be Maguses, Witch Queens, avatars of Goddesses, or Spiritual Masters. If you catch yourself referring to everyone else as the herd, or human cattle, etc., then its time to take another look at where you’re going.”
-Phil Hine, Condensed Chaos

I found it connected, in other words, to what looks to me to be some manner of school of magic. I have no problem with it's validity as a psychological reality because of that connection but, as I mentioned people have issues of trust and I am a people. I have looked at many metaphysical systems ancient and modern and have as a result become opinionated. Long ago when this was a big 'thinking about' issue for me I either read about but believe I represented the concept to myself as follows:

Truth is like the sun. The degree to which a system can transmit a vision of the sun to me can be thought of as planets orbiting the sun the distance from it representing their capacity to proximate it for me. I got a huge lift when I discovered Zen. it saved me, but when for some miracle I can't explain, pure blind luck perhaps, I found a therapist who I believe was truly enlightened, his methodology replaced my dedication to Zen. From an interest in Sufism I was exposed to many ideas including the need for a teaching to be specific for a time, a place, and the people there then. In shout some paths are more or less appropriate, not only maybe even, time and place, but personal characteristics. Any two temporally and geographically local people may not be suited to the same path.

This trust issue, then, for me personally means, that while I can appreciate the definition you offered as sounding right, I would not have so a similar faith in the suitability of a psychological system couched in magic as a valid path for me. It might be perfect for somebody else.

So I had an internal debate as to whether you offered the word to describe me because you had some passing familiarity with it or because you have chosen the notions of truth that can be coded into a magical path? I would have a problem walking that way because of trust issues. But I wouldn't reject it as perfect for some people. I didn't want to refer to my personal beliefs without making that last part clear. I would tend to translate chaos magic into my own way of seeing things.

Falling asleep, proof read later

 

[vjeltz]

Yes Moonbeam, that is the exact context I found that word. In fact, it was top of mind as I had just read that particular book and thought the term very fitting to something I have been seeing consistently throughout my journey. The fact that this condition appears to be increasing is intriguing. I have not found any antidote besides self reflection, which is not something that can be easily given.

This was not meant to suggest that particular book or any sort of magical path

I hope you can see that we are only offering our personal version of truth. That is fine, but when you think your version of truth is the one true version and everyone else is sick then we end up back at square one. Then those same people point the finger and say “Why do we not make progress?”, “Why is everyone else living as automatons?”.

 

[Pohemi]

/exits the pontification salad

 

[Greenman]

Thread title appears to have been validated.

 

[MtnMan]

Paragraphs dude... paragraphs....

Then perhaps you can show us on the doll where you were harmed.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yes Moonbeam, that is the exact context I found that word. In fact, it was top of mind as I had just read that particular book and thought the term very fitting to something I have been seeing consistently throughout my journey. The fact that this condition appears to be increasing is intriguing. I have not found any antidote besides self reflection, which is not something that can be easily given.

This was not meant to suggest that particular book or any sort of magical path

I hope you can see that we are only offering our personal version of truth. That is fine, but when you think your version of truth is the one true version and everyone else is sick then we end up back at square one. Then those same people point the finger and say “Why do we not make progress?”, “Why is everyone else living as automatons?”.

Perhaps you are familiar with Gurdjieff’s All and Everything or Carlos Castaneda’s series on the teachings of Don Juan.
The latter is likely a work of fiction and the former full of what I think is complete nonsense. None the less each in their own ways I regard as full of far deeper wisdom than I possess. I think it was from the Don Juan series that I picked up what I think is a gem. "There are a million paths and they all lead nowhere. Choose a path that has a heart." My time place people thingi was intended to say there is one truth. People who are qualified to teach, who have walked a path themselves, I believe, are able to say what path is best for what person. I, myself, have no idea. I know something about transcending existential suffering, I think, and try to stick to that. But because of the tendency of ego to pretend it knows the way, I still think a teacher is a good idea. Clearly some people have various levels of breakthroughs. Personally I think that Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad were the products of some school of some ancient generation to generation transmitted wisdom. I used to read stuff and that is an impression I picked up. In Zen it seems that many a master can teach by means of a pumpkin or a stick. Mulla Nasrudin claimed he could see in the dark. God knows what people who can see in the dark can do. I had a teacher once who said one word to me and I collapsed in tears on the floor.