Once again, a brave cop goes home tonight

[Screech]

This is what you get at the intersection of terrible parenting, a stupid kid, a culture that worships guns, and a police dispatcher who leaves out a very important bit of information regarding "the gun is likely a toy."

That said, anyone who takes a toy gun and makes it look like a real gun (taking off for painting over the orange cap thingy) is just looking to get shot.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

It's always been the way that policemen have shot children for playing with toy guns?

I grew up in a middle-class, incredibly white neighborhood with relatively low crime and not much interaction with police outside of D.A.R.E assemblies (basically anti-drug things run by the police to remind kids about the dangers of pot). We played the 20th century equivalent of cowboys and indians, which was basically just "whatever Schwarzenegger movie is popular this month" with obviously fake guns. And my mothers always told me, "now if a real cop sees you, you DROP THAT TOY GUN IMMEDIATELY AND DO EXACTLY WHAT HE SAYS" (they would literally shout that part at us to make sure we got it). They had no reason to believe that would ever happen in our neighborhood, nor did it, and we still got told that constantly. They'd seen random news stories about kids getting shot for fake guns and it made them paranoid.

So, yeah, it's tragic that a kid was shot over a misunderstanding. But that's a reflection on an inability of the parents to properly prepare their child for how to handle that situation. "Never give the cops a reason to shoot you" might seem like a sad lesson to have to teach kids, but if it might save their life someday, it's probably worth it. We got that lesson growing up and the odds of us ever being threatened with shooting by a cop was about on par with winning the lottery. Doesn't matter. Parents have to prepare their children for the world and some of those lessons will reflect that society isn't perfect.

 

[DCal430]

It's always been the way that policemen have shot children for playing with toy guns?



Maybe you can sort out some sort of CCW for toy guns.

Yes it has been this way for decades, which is why what this kid did is illegal and these toys are banned in public.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I grew up in a middle-class, incredibly white neighborhood with relatively low crime and not much interaction with police outside of D.A.R.E assemblies (basically anti-drug things run by the police to remind kids about the dangers of pot). We played the 20th century equivalent of cowboys and indians, which was basically just "whatever Schwarzenegger movie is popular this month" with obviously fake guns. And my mothers always told me, "now if a real cop sees you, you DROP THAT TOY GUN IMMEDIATELY AND DO EXACTLY WHAT HE SAYS" (they would literally shout that part at us to make sure we got it). They had no reason to believe that would ever happen in our neighborhood, nor did it, and we still got told that constantly. They'd seen random news stories about kids getting shot for fake guns and it made them paranoid.

So, yeah, it's tragic that a kid was shot over a misunderstanding. But that's a reflection on an inability of the parents to properly prepare their child for how to handle that situation. "Never give the cops a reason to shoot you" might seem like a sad lesson to have to teach kids, but if it might save their life someday, it's probably worth it. We got that lesson growing up and the odds of us ever being threatened with shooting by a cop was about on par with winning the lottery. Doesn't matter. Parents have to prepare their children for the world and some of those lessons will reflect that society isn't perfect.

Same here and it was pre-DARE days yet we were told the same thing when it came to what to do with your toy or BB gun. We were also taught to show the police respect when we spoke with them (yes sir/maam, no sir/maam). That advice has done well for me throughout my adult life as well. I have received far more warnings/warning tickets than I have received tickets by being respectful when dealing with the police.

 

[xBiffx]

I grew up in a middle-class, incredibly white neighborhood with relatively low crime and not much interaction with police outside of D.A.R.E assemblies (basically anti-drug things run by the police to remind kids about the dangers of pot). We played the 20th century equivalent of cowboys and indians, which was basically just "whatever Schwarzenegger movie is popular this month" with obviously fake guns. And my mothers always told me, "now if a real cop sees you, you DROP THAT TOY GUN IMMEDIATELY AND DO EXACTLY WHAT HE SAYS" (they would literally shout that part at us to make sure we got it). They had no reason to believe that would ever happen in our neighborhood, nor did it, and we still got told that constantly. They'd seen random news stories about kids getting shot for fake guns and it made them paranoid.

Sounds exactly like my childhood.

Same here and it was pre-DARE days yet we were told the same thing when it came to what to do with your toy or BB gun. We were also taught to show the police respect when we spoke with them (yes sir/maam, no sir/maam). That advice has done well for me throughout my adult life as well. I have received far more warnings/warning tickets than I have received tickets by being respectful when dealing with the police.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[mizzou]

HOLY WTF BBQ!!! You want to call out SWAT now? And think that is somehow a better solution? Pro-tip, regular patrol cops don't carry fancy shit like ballistic shields around with them. Those are specialty equipment for specialty situations.

My post was saying exactly the opposite, it would NOT be prudent to call out SWAT in every single instance. Calm down

And as far as ballistic shields, in a well funded or decently funded dept., typically they are easily accessed somewhere and they should have at least one somewhere. The moral of my post was to think outside the box and use any/all means that is reasonable.

Sometimes you call out SWAT for barricaded situations because they have the tools necessary to save lives, but as my post should have clearly stated, it would be ridiculous to call them out on everything.

 

[FerrelGeek]

Here is the only question that really need to be asked: Would you rather see a cop or a child shot?
Personally, I think that it is the cops duty to protect and serve, and that means taking some risks. The police need to be a lot less trigger happy. Shooting first is not the proper response in every situation.

Easy for you to say, moron. Why don't you go all Westboro Baptist at cops funerals then. Or go tell their families that their deaths served a greater purpose by letting a criminal live to rob, rape, murder another day.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Riiight. And then when some kids break into a house and get shot by a homeowner, unarmed or otherwise, this place can't stop falling over itself to justify the shooting in the name of safety first.

There is a big difference between a kid playing in a park and a kid breaking into a home. But even in that case it is the police's (and homeowner's) responsibility to try to avoid resorting to deadly violence.

This is a case where if the cop had waited a few more seconds he would have been able to determine that the gun was not real. I understand that those few seconds escalates the danger the cop is in, but when facing the public the police must risk those dangers. These are police, not Mega-City One Judges.

 

[JEDIYoda]

As for the person who called the cops, according to them he was scaring people with the gun. They don't know if it is real or not. What would you want them to do?

911 records state it was a possible fake gun. Why did the Police not get that information....hmmmmmm

 

[mizzou]

Here is the only question that really need to be asked: Would you rather see a cop or a child shot?
Personally, I think that it is the cops duty to protect and serve, and that means taking some risks. The police need to be a lot less trigger happy. Shooting first is not the proper response in every situation.

Responding to an emergency has nothing to do about waiting to see people get shot. Much like throwing a punch, you don't necessarily have to wait until you are punched first. An angry person cocking their arm back for a haymacker is plenty of warning enough to throw a quick jab.

Threat and counter-threat, that's all that matters. How it is done, it's unique in every situation.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

911 records state it was a possible fake gun. Why did the Police not get that information....hmmmmmm

Because it was irrelevent in that they would be treating it as real no matter what anyway. It was a guess by the person who called. Hardly realiable. If it was an obvious toy they (responding officers) would have been able to visibly determine that for themselves on arrival.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Easy for you to say, moron. Why don't you go all Westboro Baptist at cops funerals then. Or go tell their families that their deaths served a greater purpose by letting a criminal live to rob, rape, murder another day.

I'll tell their family that he had faith in humanity and did not shoot 12 year old kids playing in the park. Oh, wait. I can't. Because this cop killed a 12 year old instead of waiting a few seconds to see if it was a real gun. So, now why don't you go tell the family of that 12 year that their son's death is okay because a cop is in a little less danger.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Responding to an emergency has nothing to do about waiting to see people get shot. Much like throwing a punch, you don't necessarily have to wait until you are punched first. An angry person cocking their arm back for a haymacker is plenty of warning enough to throw a quick jab.

Threat and counter-threat, that's all that matters. How it is done, it's unique in every situation.

That is not how the police should work. They should not throw the first punch, EVER. Especially when that punch is fatal. If there is a clear and present danger, then use reasonable response to it, killing someone is NEVER a reasonable response to a POSSIBLE danger. It is only a reasonable response to a KNOWN danger.

 

[mizzou]

That is not how the police should work. They should not throw the first punch, EVER. Especially when that punch is fatal. If there is a clear and present danger, then use reasonable response to it, killing someone is NEVER a reasonable response to a POSSIBLE danger. It is only a reasonable response to a KNOWN danger.

Go to a police academy and then go to the streets, then you can write a book based on your vast experience/knowledge and come up with some new tactics.

I see this argument a billion times, and it is a face value argument which lacks substance.

If I have a scoped rifle, and it is focused on the head of a suspect. The suspect calls 911 and says "I'm going to fucking kill this hostage in front of me, I value nothing and will stop at nothing"

Based on your concrete belief, police will never shoot the suspect until he murders someone.

 

[Jaskalas]

It strikes me that, regardless of how proper the cops handled themselves - the kid pulling the gun out might be perfectly natural. Maybe he knew it was a bad thing to have, and wanted to place it on the ground.

I hear there's a video of the incident, if not the shooting itself. Wonder if that'll be made public.

 

[master_shake_]

didn't this happen at a walmart too?

did the cop say drop it or hands up or anything?

 

[The Merg]

I just can't imagine why they approached this situation in a way that would have to go down like this. At least get a ballistic shield and start to approach him that way. Since it wasn't a real gun, there is ZERO chance it came out as an "Active shooter", because NO shots could have been fired.

Get everyone around him to GTFO and single him out if he is being a little ass and doesn't want to listen to you. Get a ballistic shield wall and approach if you don't have any cover at all.

If you have NO advantage whatsoever...just wait him out from cover until he comes to you.

If you approach someone with a gun, and you don't have the advantage, that exponentially increases the chance you will have to make a choice to discharge a weapon to protect life.


From having airsoft guns pulled on me before, you have no choice to believe they are real. It's a terrible feeling to have thinking "A bullet is going to come out of there, and it's going to split my head apart"

Take your time. Be Patient. No lives are being lost, so use that as an advantage to try and make sure EVERYONE goes home safe

Ballistic shields are a great tool, if they are available when you need them. In my area, there are usually 2-3 shields available to patrol officers in each district that officers usually carry in their cruisers. If these two officers showed up and see him take the gun and start to leave, are they supposed to just sit back and watch him? How do they get everyone around him to GTFO without being noticed? This is one of those situations where they can't just sit around and wait.

And in the case where there are no other people around, I completely agree that the police should take their time and be patient. However, when you are dealing with a case in public where citizens could be at risk, you don't always have that luxury.

- Merg

 

[The Merg]

I remember when I was 10 years old and younger, my cousin and I would run around the neighborhood with toy guns..fighting the pretend army. I can guarantee that I had enough respect for authority (including parental authority) that if someone told me to drop my toy guns I would have done so immediately and even had the knowledge that someone might not think my guns were fake.

These were very bulky/plasticky guns that were clearly toys.

I would have never ran around with a realistic replica though. I had a friend with a .BB that looked like 1911. That was the PRIZED gun because it was so realistic. I would have NEVER imagined running around a neighborhood (where nobody knew who I was) pulling that out and pointing it at people.


Rule #1 treat all firearms as if they are real firearms and always loaded
Rule #2 never point a firearm at something you aren't willing to shoot at

Rule #3 - Know your target and what is beyond.
Rule #4 - Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

- Merg

 

[The Merg]

I'll tell their family that he had faith in humanity and did not shoot 12 year old kids playing in the park. Oh, wait. I can't. Because this cop killed a 12 year old instead of waiting a few seconds to see if it was a real gun. So, now why don't you go tell the family of that 12 year that their son's death is okay because a cop is in a little less danger.

How long does the cop wait to see if it is real? You do realize, with that gun, only when the trigger is pulled is when most people would realize that it is a fake gun.

- Merg

 

[The Merg]

This is what you get at the intersection of terrible parenting, a stupid kid, a culture that worships guns, and a police dispatcher who leaves out a very important bit of information regarding "the gun is likely a toy."

That said, anyone who takes a toy gun and makes it look like a real gun (taking off for painting over the orange cap thingy) is just looking to get shot.

Although, a colored tip or gun doesn't mean that it is a toy anymore...

- Merg

 

[mizzou]

Ballistic shields are a great tool, if they are available when you need them. In my area, there are usually 2-3 shields available to patrol officers in each district that officers usually carry in their cruisers. If these two officers showed up and see him take the gun and start to leave, are they supposed to just sit back and watch him? How do they get everyone around him to GTFO without being noticed? This is one of those situations where they can't just sit around and wait.

And in the case where there are no other people around, I completely agree that the police should take their time and be patient. However, when you are dealing with a case in public where citizens could be at risk, you don't always have that luxury.

- Merg

I am not aware of the details of specifically how it went down, and I said already I can't fault the officers for what they did because given what's known, it sounds legal and justifiable. it SUCKS, but it is what it is.

I understand people are getting up in arms about the militarization of police, but there needs to be more funding given to them for a defensive role so they don't have to always resort to offense because they have little to no defense. Why not put a ballistic shield in every car trunk? Why not? If it would save lives, give them the tools.

It's not a guarantee, but with a variety of options available, that little kids life might be worth the $2,000-per unit cost in the end for the public.

But like I said, I'm just thinking...not trying to judge them.


----------------

Back to point....if the kid did run from the police and he never fired a shot, I don't think lethal force would even apply because it wouldn't meet the justification under the fleeing felon law. There is no PC that he committed a dangerous felony, threatened the use or used of a deadly weapon, and letting him go would be a further danger to life.

 

[The Merg]

didn't this happen at a walmart too?

did the cop say drop it or hands up or anything?

Similar and different from the WalMart case...

In the WalMart case, the subject had his back to the cops the entire time and was apparently distracted by talking on the phone. The officers in that case supposedly gave commands to drop the gun.

In this case, he was apparently facing the officers when confronted, was told to raise his hands, and then drew the gun from inside his waistband.

- Merg

 

[Victorian Gray]

Sorry. Wasn't saying you did. Was adding an additional thought onto my response to you. Guess the "but" was the wrong word to use.

- Merg

Far as I can tell no one raised the issue so it was rather of pointless but I guess it was one of those strategic comments.

 

[The Merg]

I am not aware of the details of specifically how it went down, and I said already I can't fault the officers for what they did because given what's known, it sounds legal and justifiable. it SUCKS, but it is what it is.

I understand people are getting up in arms about the militarization of police, but there needs to be more funding given to them for a defensive role so they don't have to always resort to offense because they have little to no defense. Why not put a ballistic shield in every car trunk? Why not? If it would save lives, give them the tools.

It's not a guarantee, but with a variety of options available, that little kids life might be worth the $2,000-per unit cost in the end for the public.

But like I said, I'm just thinking...not trying to judge them.


----------------

Back to point....if the kid did run from the police and he never fired a shot, I don't think lethal force would even apply because it wouldn't meet the justification under the fleeing felon law. There is no PC that he committed a dangerous felony, threatened the use or used of a deadly weapon, and letting him go would be a further danger to life.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that you didn't think it was justifiable. I just disagreed that them having a shield available would have been an end-all solution.

I could just see this case where the cops started going across the playground carrying a shield and how the headlines would read about how militaristic the cops were in responding for a toy gun call.

With regards to him fleeing and whether to shoot or not. I do agree with the most part. However, it would come down to the articulation of the threatened use of the gun. Obviously, there would need to be some kind of action that indicates the use or threatened use of the gun. The kid running with the gun in his waistband I don't think would be enough. However, if he pulled it out and started to point it anyone, that would justify a shooting.

- Merg

 

[Artorias]

i'd rather take a bullet than shoot a kid. but thats just me.

Do you want to possibly rethink that?

I know this isn't Africa, but American society is armed and there are portions with third world mentalities, its important to remember that.

I'm not justifying what the cop did, not enough information to conclude anything one way or the other, just pointing out some of the realities, albeit it rare or not.