One question I have not seen answered about NOL

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: conjur
What I want to know is why isn't the river being used to float barges/rafts of food/water/medicine (along with troops aboard) down to the city. The Conv. Ctr. is right on the river and could have had food/water DAYS ago. Security would have been much less of a concern than it is now.

What kind of condition is the river in? Are there a lot of sunken barges and ships blocking the way? Is river traffic open right now? Where do they dock in NO to unload the relief workers and supplies?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: conjur
What I want to know is why isn't the river being used to float barges/rafts of food/water/medicine (along with troops aboard) down to the city. The Conv. Ctr. is right on the river and could have had food/water DAYS ago. Security would have been much less of a concern than it is now.

What kind of condition is the river in? Are there a lot of sunken barges and ships blocking the way? Is river traffic open right now? Where do they dock in NO to unload the relief workers and supplies?

No answers?

I guess it's much easier for the backseat drivers to proclaim these things should be done without any facts in their pocket than to tell us HOW they can be done.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: conjur
What I want to know is why isn't the river being used to float barges/rafts of food/water/medicine (along with troops aboard) down to the city. The Conv. Ctr. is right on the river and could have had food/water DAYS ago. Security would have been much less of a concern than it is now.

What kind of condition is the river in? Are there a lot of sunken barges and ships blocking the way? Is river traffic open right now? Where do they dock in NO to unload the relief workers and supplies?

That's what I'm wondering. Who's surveyed the river to see how it could be used. I've heard reports of a ferry pilot being shot so there is *some* activity.

Also, I read reports of damage to the wharves but that they were usable.

Or, just pull it up to here
http://www.inetours.com/New_Orleans/images/River_Cruise/Ferry_Riverwalk.jpg

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: conjur
What I want to know is why isn't the river being used to float barges/rafts of food/water/medicine (along with troops aboard) down to the city. The Conv. Ctr. is right on the river and could have had food/water DAYS ago. Security would have been much less of a concern than it is now.

What kind of condition is the river in? Are there a lot of sunken barges and ships blocking the way? Is river traffic open right now? Where do they dock in NO to unload the relief workers and supplies?

That's what I'm wondering. Who's surveyed the river to see how it could be used. I've heard reports of a ferry pilot being shot so there is *some* activity.

Also, I read reports of damage to the wharves but that they were usable.

Or, just pull it up to here
http://www.inetours.com/New_Orleans/images/River_Cruise/Ferry_Riverwalk.jpg

I would think that amphibius military units dont need wharfs, that airforce units dont need rivers, that marines dont need roads.

but I guess that isn't what the federal government had in mind for this operation.

even after day 5...

This disaster is already said and done, nothing that happens now will make it any better, just gotta play it out now.

the next disaster!? God help us.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: OrByte
I would think that amphibius military units dont need wharfs, that airforce units dont need rivers, that marines dont need roads.

but I guess that isn't what the federal government had in mind for this operation.

even after day 5...

This disaster is already said and done, nothing that happens now will make it any better, just gotta play it out now.

the next disaster!? God help us.

Ayup.

Well, to see it all in perspective, see my latest post in the "And Nero Fiddled" thread.

 

[ExpertNovice]

Originally posted by: episodic
Why did FEMA/STATE/WHOEVER not airdrop food and water into the affected areas, especially around the dome and near hospitals/nursing homes, etc.

Why? We got into 3rd world countries with NO infrastructure after the tsunami almost immediatly, yet it takes 5 days to get anything to NOL? The militairy airdrops supplies in IRAQ, why not here?


Someone answer this?

You have a short memmory, right? You also seem to have failed to validate your claim. I suggest you check your facts.

Perhaps, you changed the definitions of "immediately" between the two incidents. Not a nice thing to do,if that is what you did.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: conjur
What I want to know is why isn't the river being used to float barges/rafts of food/water/medicine (along with troops aboard) down to the city. The Conv. Ctr. is right on the river and could have had food/water DAYS ago. Security would have been much less of a concern than it is now.

What kind of condition is the river in? Are there a lot of sunken barges and ships blocking the way? Is river traffic open right now? Where do they dock in NO to unload the relief workers and supplies?

That's what I'm wondering. Who's surveyed the river to see how it could be used. I've heard reports of a ferry pilot being shot so there is *some* activity.

Also, I read reports of damage to the wharves but that they were usable.

Or, just pull it up to here
http://www.inetours.com/New_Orleans/images/River_Cruise/Ferry_Riverwalk.jpg

What does that picture prove? It's a dated picture from a website that sells tours. WTF?

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: conjur
What I want to know is why isn't the river being used to float barges/rafts of food/water/medicine (along with troops aboard) down to the city. The Conv. Ctr. is right on the river and could have had food/water DAYS ago. Security would have been much less of a concern than it is now.

Could one of those boats that dig the channels in the river be used to fill up the breaks in the canals? Looks like some of the canals are big enough for a good size boat to fit in.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: conjur
What I want to know is why isn't the river being used to float barges/rafts of food/water/medicine (along with troops aboard) down to the city. The Conv. Ctr. is right on the river and could have had food/water DAYS ago. Security would have been much less of a concern than it is now.

Could one of those boats that dig the channels in the river be used to fill up the breaks in the canals? Looks like some of the canals are big enough for a good size boat to fit in.

They were considering using a barge to plug the gap but it widened too much before they could get one there. It grew to be over 500' long. That's pretty damn long. Plus, soundings came back showing the breach was 100' deep. There was nothing that was going to fill it until the water in the "bowl" equalized with the lake.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

When this scenario was "practiced" last year, many of the current problems were predicted an allegedly planned for.

Ultimately the head honcho for disaster (FEMA) should have prepositioned some materials at large shelters AND delivered more immediately afterwards. Unfortunately, the situation got out of hand much faster than FEMA could respond.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: conjur
What I want to know is why isn't the river being used to float barges/rafts of food/water/medicine (along with troops aboard) down to the city. The Conv. Ctr. is right on the river and could have had food/water DAYS ago. Security would have been much less of a concern than it is now.

What kind of condition is the river in? Are there a lot of sunken barges and ships blocking the way? Is river traffic open right now? Where do they dock in NO to unload the relief workers and supplies?

That's what I'm wondering. Who's surveyed the river to see how it could be used. I've heard reports of a ferry pilot being shot so there is *some* activity.

Also, I read reports of damage to the wharves but that they were usable.

Or, just pull it up to here
http://www.inetours.com/New_Orleans/images/River_Cruise/Ferry_Riverwalk.jpg

What does that picture prove? It's a dated picture from a website that sells tours. WTF?

You don't think "outside the box" much, do you?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
When this scenario was "practiced" last year, many of the current problems were predicted an allegedly planned for.

Ultimately the head honcho for disaster (FEMA) should have prepositioned some materials at large shelters AND delivered more immediately afterwards. Unfortunately, the situation got out of hand much faster than FEMA could respond.

Adn how to you prepositioned supplies when you do not know what is going to be hit.

They could have put supplies in NO anticipating that the hurricane could have hit houston or Pennscacola.

There are not enough supplies and logistics to go around.

Also, it takes manpower to pre-position and move the supplies.

As has been show, getting manpower into NO is not an easy task.

Relating to airdrops, try driving a car 60mph down the higway and throwing out a can of soda to land (not just hit) a 2 foot square on the marked on the pavement. No easy task.

 

[sandorski]

What a mindfvck. No matter how it's spun, the response has been pathetic. A local(Vancouver) Canadian S&R team arrived on scene a couple days ago and had to postpone their work due to lack of security(shootings and kidnappings happening nearby). This team traveled thousands(guesstimate) of miles from a foreign country and arrived before adequate US personnel arrived onscene. Not only did this teeam arrive before US forces, but they were actually delayed a day awaiting authorization to depart from US Authorities.

I'm not trying to turn this into a US/Canada flame, but WTF was going on in the US that it took so long to respond to this disaster? There's no excuse for this!

 

[Smaug]

Your right on the Iraq point, we can't instantly distribute food and water, but we can coordinate an airdrop of MRE's and water within 3 days. Those three days being Friday, Saturday, Sunday. If supplies got there on Monday or Tuesday, things would not have gotten so nearly out of hand.

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: conjur
What I want to know is why isn't the river being used to float barges/rafts of food/water/medicine (along with troops aboard) down to the city. The Conv. Ctr. is right on the river and could have had food/water DAYS ago. Security would have been much less of a concern than it is now.

What kind of condition is the river in? Are there a lot of sunken barges and ships blocking the way? Is river traffic open right now? Where do they dock in NO to unload the relief workers and supplies?

No answers?

I guess it's much easier for the backseat drivers to proclaim these things should be done without any facts in their pocket than to tell us HOW they can be done.

What, our plans require perfect conditions in order to implement them? That's ridiculous. This is certainly evidence that you really were in charge of FEMA or may even be in charge now!

TLC seems to be saying that in the event of a catastrophic attack on our country, whether it be from nature or man, there had better not be any potholes in the road or impediments to sea lanes....:roll:

 

[episodic]

So what you apologists are saying seems to be the following:

FEMA needs perfect conditions and many days to ramp up before they can help anyone now, even after being infused with billions and billions of dollars to strengthen and quicken our response to mass casuality events.

Airdropping food at the evacuation centers - meaning MRE's and Water - by day 2 or 3 was unrealistic, and that food and water would not have helped conditions any.

All of this was planned for, and this is the time it takes.

The United States Militairy can't get into any area that does not have an intact transportation system. If there is not a road there - we sit and wait.

There is no way they could have got peacekeeping forces into the area sooner.


----------------------------- BULLCRAP to all of those statements you all are making ---------------------------------

They knew the hurricane was coming for weeks. It was going to be worse - what happened is actually the better case scenario. What would be going on if NOL bore the brunt of it directly as originally predicted with 175 mph winds? Sheesh where was NOL's plans, Louisiana's Plans, and the Feds plans. They had plans right? They knew what they'd have to do right? The hurricane was predicted for many days before landfall, they could not preposition food and water at the point they told people to evacuate ahead of time along with some Louisiana Guard MP's to keep order? I know I'm a stupid liberal, but it makes farkin sense to me. We are talking about the south people. You can get food and water anywhere you want to get it if you think outside the box - don't want to airdrop it? Fine - go to the nearest unaffected southern town and ask for volunteers with 4 wheelers. You'll get thousands of people hauling whatever you want. It just takes strength and leadership to think outside the farkin box.
There is a discipline in Emergency Management called volunteer management. Get some experts down there.

You can airdrop food/water and slide members of the US 101'st airborne down a darn rope wherever the heck you want to put them in the world within 24 hours if you have the leadership and resolve to do so. Again, peacekeeping forces can come down by rope wherever the heck you want to put them very farking quickly.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
It took days to respond to the tsunami. In fact, like NOLA, the left used the tsunami to bash Bush relentlessly too.

Have you missed the fact that according to the right, everything in New Orleans is the left's fault?

 

[maluckey]

Point....You CANNOT use U.S. troops for law enforcement without Martial Law.

Point....You cannot drop ANYTHING without logistical support and more importantly, PAYMENTS for the goods and services. Also where will the aircraft used be fueled and supported from, and who will control the issue of the rations???

Point......Individual States are the authority for ALL drops and disbursement of food and funds, NOT the United States of America.

point.....Individual States are in charge of their rescue efforts, NOT the United States Government.

U.S. bashing without any real understanding of how things work is what I keep seeing here on most of these threads.

 

[episodic]

Originally posted by: maluckey
Point....You CANNOT use U.S. troops for law enforcement without Martial Law.

Point....You cannot drop ANYTHING without logistical support and more importantly, PAYMENTS for the goods and services. Also where will the aircraft used be fueled and supported from, and who will control the issue of the rations???

Point......Individual States are the authority for ALL drops and disbursement of food and funds, NOT the United States of America.

point.....Individual States are in charge of their rescue efforts, NOT the United States Government.

U.S. bashing without any real understanding of how things work is what I keep seeing here on most of these threads.

I'm telling you that if the president and if the governor said make it happen, it would have. The governor could have imposed martial law the day the hurricane struck, send the Louisiana Guard in there that day.

Yea, you are right the state should be in charge - but evidently they forgot to plan for this for ooooo lets see, the last 200 freaking years? You did not read my post evidently for some of your other questions.


You cannot drop ANYTHING without logistical support and more importantly, PAYMENTS for the goods and services. Great I agree - where was their plan to do this? There should have already (like decades ago) been a plan, a service provider, payment authorization, and an agreement. DECADES AGO.


Also where will the aircraft used be fueled and supported from, and who will control the issue of the rations??? Houston, Memphis, Jackson, Tampa, Jacksonville, Little Rock, Numerous small airstrips all over the region, really, I could go on for hours if I felt like it - any dang airport, basically. Again, this should have been planned for. The plans should have been reviewed and executed time and time again in table top excercises. That is what state emergency management departments are supposed to do - along with city emergency management departments. These departments are supposed to plan and practice those plans over and over again with many different agencies, such as the national guard, the police, 1st responders, etc. The sad fact is the state and/or FEMA never seemed to have any kind of workable plan. I bet the average soccer mom would have made sure there was food/water/and security at the only evacuation point, as well as a plan on how to deal with human waste after the fact (several vacum trucks and a few hundred portapotties would have helped tremedously).

Now to the other part of you question. Who would distribute it? Is it farking unrealistic for the NOL police to help now instead of holeing up in their precint? What? Their job is dangerous - well, yea - they are cops - right? Don't want to work, fine - leave your badge at the door. You can also once again deploy mobile militairy units anywhere you want by rope very quickly.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: maluckey
Point....You CANNOT use U.S. troops for law enforcement without Martial Law.

Point....You cannot drop ANYTHING without logistical support and more importantly, PAYMENTS for the goods and services. Also where will the aircraft used be fueled and supported from, and who will control the issue of the rations???

Point......Individual States are the authority for ALL drops and disbursement of food and funds, NOT the United States of America.

point.....Individual States are in charge of their rescue efforts, NOT the United States Government.

U.S. bashing without any real understanding of how things work is what I keep seeing here on most of these threads.

If it was an election year your Points would be moot

 

[maluckey]

episodic,

As you so point out, the States are failing themselves. How much SHOULD the United States bail them out? Human suffering should be alleviated to the extent possible given the restrictions that the individual States are the sole authority for disbursement of goods to their residents. Big Brother is not and should not be in-charge.

 

[episodic]

Originally posted by: maluckey
episodic,

As you so point out, the States are failing themselves. How much SHOULD the United States bail them out? Human suffering should be alleviated to the extent possible given the restrictions that the individual States are the sole authority for disbursement of goods to their residents. Big Brother is not and should not be in-charge.

What a great question.

If states are to totally support theirselves during disaster, then let us get rid of the massive federal agency that FEMA has become. Let states tax their own for thier own risks and abolish the concept of federal aide. However, this is dangerous and that is why we have disaster respose legislation and a federal agency.

Persons in the area (those actually there and not) have been taxed federally for their entire lives - and are entitled to the response being handled competantly. The government should place massive sanctions on the region for being ill-prepared. Probably, there are multiple persons who are charged under the law to be responsible for planning in the state/city, but that will never come to light.

With that said, human need should be first. However, this SHOULD be a career ender for many persons. I'm smart 'nuff to know that it won't be though.

If the farkers give them money without massive STRINGS ATTACHED to rebuild, then they are stupid - plain stupid. The strings should be that NOL becomes a disaster resiliant community and that everything from building codes to plans meet strict federal scrutiny before they ever get 1 red cent.

 

[maluckey]

Can I get an AMEN?

 

[episodic]

I love how noone can really answer the questions.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: maluckey
Point....You CANNOT use U.S. troops for law enforcement without Martial Law.

Riot control and prevention of civil unrest are not the same thing as law enforcement for purposes of Posse Comitatus, and military forces can be used for these purposes; they are essentially viewed as civil defense, rather than law enforcement. Hell, Sec'ty Rumsfeld has already significantly weakened enforcement of the law by allowing for the use of Air Force surveillance assets to help nab the DC sniper (which actually was a law-enforcement function IMO).