Only 31% of Americans want an EV or PHEV. What about you?

[sdifox]

Lol That's not rural. Rural is like farm land and such, we do have rural areas but the whole city is not rural. We pay more than our share of taxes here, my city has one of the highest tax rates in Ontario. People like you who live in big cities are out of touch. Maybe go visit an actual rural area one day, like a farm. That's where your food comes from.

Also if it wasn't for cities like mine EVs and pretty much every electrical device you use wouldn't even be a thing. Where do you think all the copper and minerals come from? Mines.

The entire North is rural. Your taxes are high because of low density.

I have been to Sault Ste Marie, Thunder Bay, Kenora and Sudbury. Northern Ontario has 88% of Ontario land but only 6% of the population. You wonder why servicing the North is expensive? That is why.


I got farm land five minutes from my house. Hell there are even cattles and fish farms.

 

[Brovane]

Road trips I can see where an EV would be inconvenient, since dealing with public chargers just sounds like a nightmare in general as they seem to be broken more often than McDonald's ice cream machine. But if you never travel then charging is really not an issue. Charge at home on 240 or charge at work on 120 using the block heater plugins. Even 120 at home would be fine for most people unless you're draining the whole battery running errands on the weekend. But that's a lot of driving. That's one thing people forget.. you're not going to deplete the whole battery every day. You're just going to take a bit of charge off. So when you get home you're really just topping it up.

Public Chargers can be a nightmare unless you have a Tesla. One time with Leaf I had to go 5 different Public Chargers before I found one with a open Fast Charging spot. There just isn't enough fast chargers that are not Tesla and they don't build enough chargers at a location. Tesla will come in and put in something like 20-30 chargers or more at one charging station. Electrify America will come in and put like 6-8 chargers at one location and they will call it good. Hopefully this will change as Tesla opens up their network.

 

[Red Squirrel]

The entire North is rural.

Yeah you're out of touch. You must be one of those people that think Barrie is northern Ontario lol.

 

[sdifox]

Yeah you're out of touch. You must be one of those people that think Barrie is northern Ontario lol.

Government of Ontario disagrees with you. Since the data comes from Stats Can, maybe you can say Canada disagrees with you.

Socioeconomic facts and data about rural Ontario

Find historical information about rural Ontario’s population characteristics and key rural economic and labour force indicators.

www.ontario.ca

 

[Red Squirrel]

First line: "There are many ways to define rural Ontario. Across government rural areas are defined differently depending on the objective and focus of the program or policy."

This is more what I have in mind when I think Rural: https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/rural-area/

Nobody here calls the city core rural. The farm areas yes but not the entire city.

Whoever came up with this document probably lives in Toronto and has never been outside of a big city. We actually have paved roads, water and sewer infrastructure, and buildings and stuff. My hydro bill even says "high density".

But anyway we're just getting caught on semantics and it has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[sdifox]

First line: "There are many ways to define rural Ontario. Across government rural areas are defined differently depending on the objective and focus of the program or policy."

This is more what I have in mind when I think Rural: https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/rural-area/

Nobody here calls the city core rural. The farm areas yes but not the entire city.

Whoever came up with this document probably lives in Toronto and has never been outside of a big city. We actually have paved roads, water and sewer infrastructure, and buildings and stuff. My hydro bill even says "high density".

But anyway we're just getting caught on semantics and it has nothing to do with this thread.

it's Stats Can definition... And you are the one that brought politics into this thread.

 

[yottabit]

You'd think the simplicity of EVs would result in lower cost vehicles, instead they are more expensive than gas/electric hybrids which makes little sense. Sucks that in America EVs are still primarily luxury vehicles

I personally would be most interested in something more like what we thought EVs would be in the 90s, a CHEAP econobox with a ~50 mile range that could be used for everything needed around town. Bonus points if it's in a basic compact truck/van format. I keep hoping we'll see some breakthrough Chinese import for $15k but I guess I shouldn't hold my breath

Instead we have $100k 6000 lb land yachts that will do zero-to-crumple zone in 2.9 seconds.

 

[JTsyo]

You'd think the simplicity of EVs would result in lower cost vehicles, instead they are more expensive than gas/electric hybrids which makes little sense. Sucks that in America EVs are still primarily luxury vehicles

I personally would be most interested in something more like what we thought EVs would be in the 90s, a CHEAP econobox with a ~50 mile range that could be used for everything needed around town. Bonus points if it's in a basic compact truck/van format. I keep hoping we'll see some breakthrough Chinese import for $15k but I guess I shouldn't hold my breath

Instead we have $100k 6000 lb land yachts that will do zero-to-crumple zone in 2.9 seconds.

That's the trajectory for most new tech. Early adopters get the high margin luxury version and then the mass market version comes out based on what was learned in the previous versions.Both VW and Tesla are talking about the $25k BEV.

 

[marvdmartian]

Who gives a shit how long it takes to charge at home? I don't, I'm fucking asleep.

This is the most ridiculous argument, time only has value if your time is involved.

Aside from the (very rare) public charging on road trips EV charging is a 10 second or less per day slice of my life. Park, plug, walk away.

Foe the first half - there are serious issues for people in apartments or housing without off street parking. No arguments there.

Viper GTS

First, you bash my reply, then you support it, without knowing you did.

You see, I'm renting, in a place that has a detached garage. The cost of putting in a 7 hour charger would HAVE TO include running 220v electrical service from the house to the garage. Value which would be lost, once I decided to move, as I can't take it with me. Since I'd then be stuck charging on 110v service, how long would that take? My buddy's Bolt takes 7 hours to charge, on a 220v charger (he owns his home).

Then there's the issue, where my downstairs neighbor and I aren't even sure whose electric bill the garage power is charged to. Old house, split upper & lower....chances are, it's on theirs, since I'm in the upper unit. So how then do I compensate the neighbor for using their electricity?

EV charging is NOT all cut and dry. And that's the least of the arguments against the whole industry. Funny, how all 3 replies to my original statement failed to address the cold weather charging, in winter weather. Gee, I wonder why?

Tesla Model S Cold Charging Issue Leaves Owner Stuck On Christmas Eve

When he tried to charge his Model S, the car kept telling him it was warming up the battery for hours and it never added any miles.

insideevs.com

 

[manly]

Nice straw man you got there. Everybody's living situation is just like your highly specific one LOL. 🤡

And keep doubling down on stupid, my buddy can't stand slow charging while he sleeps 7 hours every night! And he purposely bought a BEV that doesn't do DC fast charging, so it's not his fault!

/s

 

[RPD]

First, you bash my reply, then you support it, without knowing you did.

You see, I'm renting, in a place that has a detached garage. The cost of putting in a 7 hour charger would HAVE TO include running 220v electrical service from the house to the garage. Value which would be lost, once I decided to move, as I can't take it with me. Since I'd then be stuck charging on 110v service, how long would that take? My buddy's Bolt takes 7 hours to charge, on a 220v charger (he owns his home).

Then there's the issue, where my downstairs neighbor and I aren't even sure whose electric bill the garage power is charged to. Old house, split upper & lower....chances are, it's on theirs, since I'm in the upper unit. So how then do I compensate the neighbor for using their electricity?

EV charging is NOT all cut and dry. And that's the least of the arguments against the whole industry. Funny, how all 3 replies to my original statement failed to address the cold weather charging, in winter weather. Gee, I wonder why?

Tesla Model S Cold Charging Issue Leaves Owner Stuck On Christmas Eve

When he tried to charge his Model S, the car kept telling him it was warming up the battery for hours and it never added any miles.

insideevs.com

So you are depleting the ENTIRE battery on a daily basis?

 

[Viper GTS]

You'd think the simplicity of EVs would result in lower cost vehicles, instead they are more expensive than gas/electric hybrids which makes little sense. Sucks that in America EVs are still primarily luxury vehicles

I personally would be most interested in something more like what we thought EVs would be in the 90s, a CHEAP econobox with a ~50 mile range that could be used for everything needed around town. Bonus points if it's in a basic compact truck/van format. I keep hoping we'll see some breakthrough Chinese import for $15k but I guess I shouldn't hold my breath

Instead we have $100k 6000 lb land yachts that will do zero-to-crumple zone in 2.9 seconds.

There have been EVs like that, they just don’t sell well. Think the Focus EV and Mini SE.

Part of what makes this difficult IMO is that the big motors and batteries needed to capture kinetic energy for efficiency sake also mean that you’re a large part of the way to a luxury vehicle (range and power).

Batteries that can take higher C-rate and will help this to some degree but the power output capability will still be there.

First, you bash my reply, then you support it, without knowing you did.

You see, I'm renting, in a place that has a detached garage. The cost of putting in a 7 hour charger would HAVE TO include running 220v electrical service from the house to the garage. Value which would be lost, once I decided to move, as I can't take it with me. Since I'd then be stuck charging on 110v service, how long would that take? My buddy's Bolt takes 7 hours to charge, on a 220v charger (he owns his home).

Then there's the issue, where my downstairs neighbor and I aren't even sure whose electric bill the garage power is charged to. Old house, split upper & lower....chances are, it's on theirs, since I'm in the upper unit. So how then do I compensate the neighbor for using their electricity?

EV charging is NOT all cut and dry. And that's the least of the arguments against the whole industry. Funny, how all 3 replies to my original statement failed to address the cold weather charging, in winter weather. Gee, I wonder why?

Tesla Model S Cold Charging Issue Leaves Owner Stuck On Christmas Eve

When he tried to charge his Model S, the car kept telling him it was warming up the battery for hours and it never added any miles.

insideevs.com

Your problems are nowhere near universal, I have 400A in my detached shop. That said, we’re both outliers - The bulk of the market is somewhere in between. Any house with a 200A load center in their attached garage is likely <$1000 away from a full L2 charging setup. Anyone who can only do L1 charging should do a very careful evaluation of their driving patterns to determine if EVs are viable. As you point out, if you charge outside in a colder environment L1 charging can be nearly impossible.

IMO the solution to situations like yours is to require that landlords update their properties with modern energy efficiency improvements. Air sealing, insulation, efficiency requirements for HVAC equipment that essentially mandate heat pumps where possible, EV charging, etc should be required if we are going to allow people to generate income forever just because they were able to buy a property at some point in the past. It’s absolutely inexcusable that people who don’t own homes get left behind on energy savings while their labor funds the existence of their landlord.

Viper GTS

 

[Brainonska511]

So you are depleting the ENTIRE battery on a daily basis?

Yeah, a 110 outlet can still charge about 50 miles a night.

 

[Brovane]

First, you bash my reply, then you support it, without knowing you did.

You see, I'm renting, in a place that has a detached garage. The cost of putting in a 7 hour charger would HAVE TO include running 220v electrical service from the house to the garage. Value which would be lost, once I decided to move, as I can't take it with me. Since I'd then be stuck charging on 110v service, how long would that take? My buddy's Bolt takes 7 hours to charge, on a 220v charger (he owns his home).

Then there's the issue, where my downstairs neighbor and I aren't even sure whose electric bill the garage power is charged to. Old house, split upper & lower....chances are, it's on theirs, since I'm in the upper unit. So how then do I compensate the neighbor for using their electricity?

EV charging is NOT all cut and dry. And that's the least of the arguments against the whole industry. Funny, how all 3 replies to my original statement failed to address the cold weather charging, in winter weather. Gee, I wonder why?

Tesla Model S Cold Charging Issue Leaves Owner Stuck On Christmas Eve

When he tried to charge his Model S, the car kept telling him it was warming up the battery for hours and it never added any miles.

insideevs.com

Did you read the article you linked to about Cold Weather charging? It really sounds like a vehicle issue not a issue with charging in cold weather. Since you really seemed to be focused on this and specifically called it out why it wasn't addressed. The Tesla vehicle had a mechanical issue not a problem that every vehicle would have with charging in cold weather.

He doesn’t mention what model year his vehicle is, but it's most likely a problem with his vehicle, not something general that could affect any Model S.

For charging at home it is best if you understand something about electricity. Volt x Amp = Watts. So a EV charger plugged into a standard 120V wall outlet will pull about 10 amps, so you are getting roughly about 1000-1200 watts of charging. Minus some loses about 1kw, most EV's that are not Pickup trucks will go about 3-4 miles per kwh of stored power so about 3-4 miles per hour is your charging speed. If you have a 50-amp 240V circuit then a EV will pull continuously about 40 amps by 240V about 10kw so this will charge your EV at the rate of about 30-40 miles per hour. There is chargers that support charging below this and charging capability above this.

However you can only charge up to the speed that your onboard charger supports. For example my Leaf has a onboard 6.6kw charger so even when I plug it into a charger capable of supporting 10kw charging it will only charge at 6.6kw. Your buddy with the Bolt has a 7.2 kw charger. So his 240V will put in about 50 kwh of power into this battery in about 7-hours or enough for about 150-200 miles of driving. Charging on 120v is not ideal for charging but some people still keep a EV and only have 120V charging at home. One of the things you can do is also understand more about the circuit you are charging from. For example if you have access to a 120V 20-amp plug that has nothing else on the circuit you might be able to speed up charging by increasing the amps you are pulling to 16-amps which will increase you 120V charging speed to about 6-8 miles per hour instead of 3-4 miles per hour. If you have a basic understanding of electricity there is some things you can do to optimize your EV charging experience if you don't have access to a dedicated 240V circuit for charging.

 

[marvdmartian]

Did you read the article you linked to about Cold Weather charging? It really sounds like a vehicle issue not a issue with charging in cold weather. Since you really seemed to be focused on this and specifically called it out why it wasn't addressed. The Tesla vehicle had a mechanical issue not a problem that every vehicle would have with charging in cold weather.

He doesn’t mention what model year his vehicle is, but it's most likely a problem with his vehicle, not something general that could affect any Model S.

For charging at home it is best if you understand something about electricity. Volt x Amp = Watts. So a EV charger plugged into a standard 120V wall outlet will pull about 10 amps, so you are getting roughly about 1000-1200 watts of charging. Minus some loses about 1kw, most EV's that are not Pickup trucks will go about 3-4 miles per kwh of stored power so about 3-4 miles per hour is your charging speed. If you have a 50-amp 240V circuit then a EV will pull continuously about 40 amps by 240V about 10kw so this will charge your EV at the rate of about 30-40 miles per hour. There is chargers that support charging below this and charging capability above this.

However you can only charge up to the speed that your onboard charger supports. For example my Leaf has a onboard 6.6kw charger so even when I plug it into a charger capable of supporting 10kw charging it will only charge at 6.6kw. Your buddy with the Bolt has a 7.2 kw charger. So his 240V will put in about 50 kwh of power into this battery in about 7-hours or enough for about 150-200 miles of driving. Charging on 120v is not ideal for charging but some people still keep a EV and only have 120V charging at home. One of the things you can do is also understand more about the circuit you are charging from. For example if you have access to a 120V 20-amp plug that has nothing else on the circuit you might be able to speed up charging by increasing the amps you are pulling to 16-amps which will increase you 120V charging speed to about 6-8 miles per hour instead of 3-4 miles per hour. If you have a basic understanding of electricity there is some things you can do to optimize your EV charging experience if you don't have access to a dedicated 240V circuit for charging.

Still doesn't address my issue where I have no idea whose meter the garage electrical is on. Trust me, there's more than one reason why an EV isn't in my sights at this time.

 

[marvdmartian]

So you are depleting the ENTIRE battery on a daily basis?

I don't currently have an EV. My original reply to this thread, I spoke of how my 2022 Hyundai Tucson hybrid gives me 40 mpg in the summer months, and 33-35 mpg in the winter months. Even with gas still over $3/gallon, I'm more than happy with the performance, range, and "recharge" (gas-up) time I'm getting with it.

My previous vehicle was a Hyundai Ioniq hybrid, that got 60 mpg summer/45 winter. I'd still be driving that, except physical limitations made getting in and out of the smaller vehicle difficult. The bigger/higher Tucson has been MUCH easier.

 

[Brovane]

Still doesn't address my issue where I have no idea whose meter the garage electrical is on. Trust me, there's more than one reason why an EV isn't in my sights at this time.

Have you opened the electrical panel? With two separate meters, you should have separate electrical panels.
With some basic electrical knowledge you should be able to fairly easily determine whose panel the garage breaker is on.

 

[Viper GTS]

I wouldn’t want to recommend they open a panel in a property they don’t own given their apparent comfort level with such things.

However - Ten minutes with a hair dryer and access to the meters should easily answer this question.

Viper GTS

 

[RPD]

I don't currently have an EV. My original reply to this thread, I spoke of how my 2022 Hyundai Tucson hybrid gives me 40 mpg in the summer months, and 33-35 mpg in the winter months. Even with gas still over $3/gallon, I'm more than happy with the performance, range, and "recharge" (gas-up) time I'm getting with it.

My previous vehicle was a Hyundai Ioniq hybrid, that got 60 mpg summer/45 winter. I'd still be driving that, except physical limitations made getting in and out of the smaller vehicle difficult. The bigger/higher Tucson has been MUCH easier.

That's a lot of words to just say, no.

 

[Brovane]

I wouldn’t want to recommend they open a panel in a property they don’t own given their apparent comfort level with such things.

However - Ten minutes with a hair dryer and access to the meters should easily answer this question.

Viper GTS

If a renter trips a breaker, they are allowed to open the breaker panel to access the breakers. They might find a 120V breaker labeled "Garage" in panel. However as you pointed out they shouldn't open the cover and expose the wiring inside.

 

[Zorba]

First, you bash my reply, then you support it, without knowing you did.

You see, I'm renting, in a place that has a detached garage. The cost of putting in a 7 hour charger would HAVE TO include running 220v electrical service from the house to the garage. Value which would be lost, once I decided to move, as I can't take it with me. Since I'd then be stuck charging on 110v service, how long would that take? My buddy's Bolt takes 7 hours to charge, on a 220v charger (he owns his home).

Then there's the issue, where my downstairs neighbor and I aren't even sure whose electric bill the garage power is charged to. Old house, split upper & lower....chances are, it's on theirs, since I'm in the upper unit. So how then do I compensate the neighbor for using their electricity?

EV charging is NOT all cut and dry. And that's the least of the arguments against the whole industry. Funny, how all 3 replies to my original statement failed to address the cold weather charging, in winter weather. Gee, I wonder why?

Tesla Model S Cold Charging Issue Leaves Owner Stuck On Christmas Eve

When he tried to charge his Model S, the car kept telling him it was warming up the battery for hours and it never added any miles.

insideevs.com

I've had my bolt for a month, put over 1,000 miles on it. Level 1, 120V charging has been just fine.

7 hours would be fully charge a fully drained battery on a Level 2, does your friend actually drive 200 miles every day?

 

[drnickriviera]

I've had my bolt for a month, put over 1,000 miles on it. Level 1, 120V charging has been just fine.

7 hours would be fully charge a fully drained battery on a Level 2, does your friend actually drive 200 miles every day?

To elaborate on what has been said. The Bolt has a 7.6kw charger. It is possible to set lower charge rates in an EVSE, but 7.6X7hr=53kwh. Unless he's driving 80mph all the way, should avg around 4mi/kwh, so 212miles. I guess if he's thinking like a gas burner and drives all week, then charge on weekend, he should change his mindset to plug in every night and be charged to 80% every morning

 

[nOOky]

I don't want one. The wife wanted a plug in hybrid, but recently bought a gas vehicle. I still like the convenience of getting gas, and buying an ice cold pop or a coffee, and a lottery ticket when I do. I suspect that my next vehicle or the one after that may be an EV, I dunno. I'd like to charge at home as I'll be retired in a few years, and we are rural. There are literally no charging stations near us, so at home it would be. However our home panel needs an upgrade as it is amped out, and we have an unheated detached garage. To upgrade is a few thousand dollars, about what my gaming pc cost

 

[K1052]

A bit of a counter to the some of the doom coming out of some US automakers about EVs lately. Seems like more a problem on their end than the consumer end.

US EV sales pass 1 million, an increase of 50.7% year-over-year​

https://electrek.co/2023/12/05/us-ev-sales-pass-1-million-2023/

Year-to-date US EV sales have surpassed 1 million – the first time EV sales exceeded that threshold in a single sales year.


The National Automobile Dealer Association (NADA) reports that through 11 months of 2023, BEV sales totaled 1,007,984 – an increase of 50.7% year-over-year.

 

[bbhaag]

A bit of a counter to the some of the doom coming out of some US automakers about EVs lately. Seems like more a problem on their end than the consumer end.

US EV sales pass 1 million, an increase of 50.7% year-over-year​

https://electrek.co/2023/12/05/us-ev-sales-pass-1-million-2023/

While EV sales have slowed it's safe to say they haven't stagnated or regressed. Ford just announce a few days ago that their EV sales are up 43% yoy. Of course these sales numbers pale in comparison to Ford Blue but it's probably safe to say that EVs are here to stay especially as more EVs come onto the market.

Newer tech like more efficient motors and newer battery tech like LFP become more mainstream......oh man the EV market is exciting right now and I can't wait to see what is next!!

Of course I don't think everyone should go out and buy an EV. Right now they aren't for everyone but they do have their place in the market with some consumers.