Open Mic Thread: Tell us your likes and dislikes of P&N

[cybrsage]

That doesn't change my point in the slightest.

Sure it does. You claimed things would be changed to "my personal tastes". You are wrong. Things would be changed to follow the AnandTech Forum Guidelines.

 

[cybrsage]

Thank you for an example of what should NOT be allowed in P&N; and something people find very unethical in the news world (though Fox and a few others use it constantly) - lying by omission. You conveniently ignored the sentence that follows immediately after what you quoted:

This type of dishonesty in discussions should not be allowed - it nearly invariably leads to unnecessary animosity in threads when others point out that the person's source doesn't even agree with their point.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Thank you, excellent point! So much of the unnecessary noise can be attributed to dishonesty.

Quoted for the lulz, and he had the nerve to accuse me of misquoting.

I quoted Idontcare. You may notice his post at the top of the previous page, where I quoted it from. So what you all just said, you said about him.

Congrats on all of you calling Idontcare a liar. Good job! :thumbsup:

 

[bfdd]

Attacks me? I rarely even bother to even respond to him lately so there's no interaction between us. I guess I've just made it a habit to use him as a whipping boy because of his past posts. But here's just a sample of how he responds to just about anybody who doesn't agree with him...

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=32807669&highlight=idiot#post32807669

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=32821181&highlight=idiot#post32821181

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=32736456&highlight=idiot#post32736456

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=32718637&highlight=idiot#post32718637

Craig calls everyone idiots. It's just his thing. I just figure that as the caring, progressive person he is, Craig believes in the Golden Rule. He must WANT to be called an idiot.

I know I sure as shit believe in the Golden Rule and fully welcome ridicule. I don't have much issue with the P&N at all. I think it is moving along fine, it gets frustrating at times, but I'd rather have something closer to anarchy than authoritarianism.

 

[spittledip]

I quoted Idontcare. You may notice his post at the top of the previous page, where I quoted it from. So what you all just said, you said about him.

Backing him up on this one- he was merely quoting IDC rather than going straight to the guidelines.

Of course, I don't understand what the difference is between a social forum and any other forum in terms of what is considered acceptable speech. You might as well just allow cursing in every forum. If not, why not? Why the inconsistency?

 

[sandorski]

People have brought up a lot of annoyances whose elimination would make P&N better, however, I think any changes need to be such that don't overly tax Mods.

An example of such would be Lying or faulty Logic, both require some level of extraneous investigation that would burnout Mods, IMO. Off Topic posts and Personal Attacks are much more apparent and don't require Mods to go to great lengths to assess. As a general principle it seems any changes need to be readily apparent and not require a Committee or Multipost/Historical Record examination to determine fault.

 

[Bowfinger]

Sure it does. You claimed things would be changed to "my personal tastes". You are wrong. Things would be changed to follow the AnandTech Forum Guidelines.

Except as has already been pointed out to you, you are lying by omission, ignoring the part that says, "Special exception to the restrictions on vulgarity and profanity are granted ONLY in the social forums." P&N is one of those social forums. Of course that's not really germane to my point anyway. You, a noob here, are expecting that a long-standing forum culture be changed to conform to your tastes. The key word there is "changed".

 

[spittledip]

People have brought up a lot of annoyances whose elimination would make P&N better, however, I think any changes need to be such that don't overly tax Mods.

An example of such would be Lying or faulty Logic, both require some level of extraneous investigation that would burnout Mods, IMO.

Yes, requesting that mods check up on the integrity of posts borders on the absurd.

 

[Bowfinger]

I quoted Idontcare. You may notice his post at the top of the previous page, where I quoted it from. So what you all just said, you said about him.

Congrats on all of you calling Idontcare a liar. Good job! :thumbsup:

You are "wrong" to put it politely. Context is everything. The sentence Idontcare omitted was not at all relevant to the discussion about bigotry. Therefore, there was no lie of omission.

 

[cybrsage]

Except as has already been pointed out to you, you are lying by omission, ignoring the part that says, "Special exception to the restrictions on vulgarity and profanity are granted ONLY in the social forums." P&N is one of those social forums. Of course that's not really germane to my point anyway. You, a noob here, are expecting that a long-standing forum culture be changed to conform to your tastes. The key word there is "changed".

Backing him up on this one- he was merely quoting IDC rather than going straight to the guidelines.

What spittledip said. You are calling Idontcare a liar, not me. I was simply repeating what a well respected mod posted. If there was more, he did not post it, and therefor I did not copy it from his post.

I wonder what he ever did to you to make you dislike him so much. I have found him rather reasonable and well spoken.

 

[cybrsage]

You are "wrong" to put it politely. Context is everything. The sentence Idontcare omitted was not at all relevant to the discussion about bigotry. Therefore, there was no lie of omission.

No, I really did directly copy and paste from Idontcare's post. You crying about it does not change it. Why do you dislike Idontcare so much that you call him a liar?

 

[Bowfinger]

What spittledip said. You are calling Idontcare a liar, not me. I was simply repeating what a well respected mod posted. If there was more, he did not post it, and therefor I did not copy it from his post.

I wonder what he ever did to you to make you dislike him so much. I have found him rather reasonable and well spoken.

No, I really did directly copy and paste from Idontcare's post. You crying about it does not change it. Why do you dislike Idontcare so much that you call him a liar?

I won't belabor this further in this thread. Suffice it to say you are providing excellent examples of the dishonest tactics and behaviors that pollute P&N.

 

[cybrsage]

I won't belabor this further in this thread. Suffice it to say you are providing excellent examples of the dishonest tactics and behaviors that pollute P&N.

Only via your response to it. You refuse to admit when you made an error by jumping onto the "me too" bandwagon. That is one of the major issues with this forum...people refusing to admit their mistakes.

 

[Perknose]

No, I really did directly copy and paste from Idontcare's post. You crying about it does not change it. Why do you dislike Idontcare so much that you call him a liar?

^^^ See, folks? It's right there for everyone to see. ^^^

This is cybrsage modeling the utterly dishonest, BS level of weasel attack response that is the gutter scourge of P&N, even as he smugly thinks he's scored some imaginary rhetorical point.

P&N would be a far better place without posters who post like this. They have no shame and they have no moral compass.

cybrsage, sorry, but this above is you exposing yourself for who you really are.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I think the problems boil down to this:

Intellectual dishonesty.

Intellectual honesty demands that we give the opposing side the best argumentation WE can muster for it. It's OK to be so poor at arguing that you fail to present your side OR the other side well, but when this is explained you need to admit to it and be honest about your failing.

If we had some instinctual honesty then personal justification and thus proliferation of:

personal attacks
trolling
unenforcable rules
trolling
topic derailment
and
trolling

would disappear.

I recommend that we vacation, for a compounding amount of time (1 day, then 2 days, then 3 days then 5 days...), poster's PnN posting privilege. Im willing to accept mod judgement on it.

 

[Idontcare]

On the topic of profanity, the posting guidelines make clear that the social forums are an exception within which the limited use of profanity is allowed.

Special exception to the restrictions on vulgarity and profanity are granted ONLY in the social forums.

6) Foul language in topic titles, summaries or sigs and excessive foul language is not permitted. With uncensored language comes an increased requirement for responsibility among users. Moderator discretion applies.

Administrator Idontcare

 

[MotF Bane]

On the topic of profanity, the posting guidelines make clear that the social forums are an exception within which the limited use of profanity is allowed.




Administrator Idontcare

So just the social boards... which would include ATG. That's interesting. :/

 

[EagleKeeper]

Problem with #6 is that it is subjective by the word excessive.

What is valid/acceptable for one user or Moderator may not be acceptable to another user or Moderator.

What one may use at a party is not what some would use at a workplace meeting.



In other words, excessive in one persons book may not be in another - subjective

Attempts at drawing the line fail because the line gets erased

It is a losing proposition because Moderators are unwilling to take the heat needed to properly cleanup the issue. Any attempt generates claims of bias.

IDC is fighting a losing battle.

 

[dank69]

Problem with #6 is that it is subjective by the word excessive.

What is valid/acceptable for one user or Moderator may not be acceptable to another user or Moderator.

What one may use at a party is not what some would use at a workplace meeting.



In other words, excessive in one persons book may not be in another - subjective

Attempts at drawing the line fail because the line gets erased

It is a losing proposition because Moderators are unwilling to take the heat needed to properly cleanup the issue. Any attempt generates claims of bias.

IDC is fighting a losing battle.

I haven't seen anyone get flagged for excessive profanity. Granted, I've only been here a few years, so I can't comment on times before that.

 

[Idontcare]

I haven't seen anyone get flagged for excessive profanity. Granted, I've only been here a few years, so I can't comment on times before that.

Excessive profanity is to be differentiated from excessive personal attack and insults.

Fuck that noise! This is just a bunch of bullshit!

^ a profanity-laced expression of exasperation over a situation, allowed in the social forums, not allowed in the technical forums.

Fuck you! You are a piece of shit!

^ a profanity-laced expression intended to be an insult, not allowed in the social forums or the technical forums...however this guideline has not been consistently enforced across the social forums.

In both cases the profanity is not the problem, provided we are talking about the social forums, but the personal attack/insult nature of the latter post does technically violate the posting guidelines.

Here is a real-world example of a post that could be cited for excessive profanity (I don't want to pick on the member so I have removed their name), but the real issue is what the profanity is being used to accomplish - a personal attack and insult.

Tell you what -- you stop being a disingeuous, fuck-faced, shit-for-brains prick, and I'll stop pointing out that you are in fact a disingenuous, fuck-faced, shit-for-brains prick. Deal?

And don't think nobody noticed that you're pussying out on addressing my rebuttals, either.


Just a heads-up, this manner of excessively egregious personal attack is actionable and does merit infraction.

That has always been the rule but it hasn't been robustly enforced recently. It soon will be, so consider this your heads-up and warning all rolled into one.

No more of this excessive personal attack and insult posting.

Administrator Idontcare

The thing with excessive profanity is that in most instances the post itself is usually in violation of a number of other posting guidelines and so as moderators we tend to just focus on whichever facet of the post is the facet most meriting sanction.

Was it a profanity-laced threadcrap? Was it a profanity-laced insult? Was it a profanity-laced thread derail? Etc. In those cases the poster will be sanctioned for the threadcrap, insult, or thread-derail and not for the profanity.

Administrator Idontcare

 

[dank69]

Excessive profanity is to be differentiated from excessive personal attack and insults.


^ a profanity-laced expression of exasperation over a situation, allowed in the social forums, not allowed in the technical forums.


^ a profanity-laced expression intended to be an insult, not allowed in the social forums or the technical forums...however this guideline has not been consistently enforced across the social forums.

In both cases the profanity is not the problem, provided we are talking about the social forums, but the personal attack/insult nature of the latter post does technically violate the posting guidelines.

Here is a real-world example of a post that could be cited for excessive profanity (I don't want to pick on the member so I have removed their name), but the real issue is what the profanity is being used to accomplish - a personal attack and insult.


The thing with excessive profanity is that in most instances the post itself is usually in violation of a number of other posting guidelines and so as moderators we tend to just focus on whichever facet of the post is the facet most meriting sanction.

Was it a profanity-laced threadcrap? Was it a profanity-laced insult? Was it a profanity-laced thread derail? Etc. In those cases the poster will be sanctioned for the threadcrap, insult, or thread-derail and not for the profanity.

Administrator Idontcare

I completely understand your point, but if you removed the profanity from that example post and replaced it with 'liar' would that post have warranted an infraction?

Tell you what -- you stop being a disingeuous liar, and I'll stop pointing out that you are in fact a disingenuous liar. Deal?

And don't think nobody noticed that you're not addressing my rebuttals, either.

 

[cybrsage]

Personally, I would have no proglem with Dank69's altered version of the post (the original one was directed at me). Calling someone a liar is fine, IMO. While it is a personal attack, it is different from other types of personal attacks in that it may actually be true (in this specific instance it was not, but in the general it could be).

 

[cybrsage]

I wonder if it would make a difference having the guildelines emailed to people when they sign up?

 

[Perknose]

So just the social boards... which would include ATG. That's interesting. :/

ATG is a true hybrid board. It's part tech forum, part social forum, and not absolutely either, no?

Getting the correct level of language that should be allowed there is tricky, and exacerbated by the disruption caused when the OT level mentality overwhelms what was once a far calmer and technically productive place.

In that light, it does make some sense to at least curb the language used.

A posters "right" to say "fuck" anywhere and anytime they wish is not recognized by us as absolute. Other considerations come into play.

In point of fact, each "social" forum is pretty much sui generis. The culture of L&R differs from OT, which in turn differs from P&N. It would be blind, rigid folly to insist on treating each exactly the same just because they were all dumped into the vB-defined Social Forums group when the changeover happened.

 

[FuzzyBee]

I would like it if, when people post an inflammatory original post that is subsequently thoroughly rebuffed, they would go back and admit they were incorrect rather than coming to the boards and acting like nothing happened. It'd lend a little integrity to posts.

(There's a first-page post like this right now.)

 

[GuitarDaddy]

I think the current level of moderation in P&N is fine. American politics is combative by nature and has gotten moreso in the last decade.

Part of the reason I like reading and posting in P&N is the wide range of points of view and the argumentative nature of this sub forum.

No matter how hard you try there will always be some level of name calling and vented frustration and anger, but that comes with the territory IMO. To me the line that shouldn't be crossed is when the behavior becomes violent, threatening or wishing ill will on someone. Call me a liar, an idiot, a dickhead, a douchbag or a fool and thats OK, but it goes over the line when you offer to kick my ass or wish my brakes to fail on a steep mountain road.

But IMO trying to moderate debating techniques, how points are made or proven, what are acceptable sources, etc..etc..etc. is futile. After all one mans strawman is another mans solidly reasoned argument.