Opera in schools

[Malak]

Announcement

Within hours of announcing the free Opera site license for higher education institutions, hundreds of schools responded, eager for a safer Internet browsing alternative. Though only a few days have passed since the announcement, more than 500 universities and colleges are on the way to deploying the Opera browser on school-owned computers.

 

[onelin]

Yep. It's quite awesome, and I may just have to talk to appropriate people at my campus to make sure we get it, too I've been a registered Opera user since version 6. Of course, we already have Firefox in all the CS labs.

 

[tfinch2]

We use Firefox in the CS lab, but then again it's a Debian box.

 

[Malak]

At the university I graduated from they recently started using mozilla or firefox, not sure, but my friends hate it. We all use opera. Hopefully they will switch.

 

[Schadenfroh]

If i was a college i would hire IT people trained in Linux (or have them trained) and just have every PC/Server running Open Office, Linux, and mozilla. For example, we have a computer lab that the whole campus can use for any reason, they are currently running Windows 2000, Office 2000, and AVG 6 Free Edition on all of them, that would be perfect linux bait. The only way a classroom would have windows on all of the computers is if a coarse used a windows only application that the IT people could not get to run on Linux. Safe money and would not have to worry about worms, spyware, and viruses as much as we do now.

or maybe im just sick of the coaches viewing pr0n and getting their computer eaten alive and me having to clean it all up.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
If i was a college i would hire IT people trained in Linux (or have them trained) and just have every PC/Server running Open Office, Linux, and mozilla. For example, we have a computer lab that the whole campus can use for any reason, they are currently running Windows 2000, Office 2000, and AVG 6 Free Edition on all of them, that would be perfect linux bait. The only way a classroom would have windows on all of the computers is if a coarse used a windows only application that the IT people could not get to run on Linux. Safe money and would not have to worry about worms, spyware, and viruses as much as we do now.

or maybe im just sick of the coaches viewing pr0n and getting their computer eaten alive and me having to clean it all up.

That's not a good idea. The students will hopefully get good jobs in companies where Microsoft Office is THE standard. It's more beneficial to them them to be familiar with the advanced features of Office programs, not an open source alternative that they'll likely never use in a business setting.

Great move giving Opera away for free, they're obviously hoping the students will become familiar with it and want to continue using it after college.

 

[Malak]

Mugs is right. At my uni we learned linux and novell, but chances are we'd be dealing with windows in a real job so we focused on that. No linux labs at all. Of course, we all had our own portable harddrive, so we got to install whatever we wanted. I don't know any business environment where they run linux. Maybe a server is running linux, but most of the network would probably be windows. Personally I think windows > linux

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: malak
Mugs is right. At my uni we learned linux and novell, but chances are we'd be dealing with windows in a real job so we focused on that. No linux labs at all. Of course, we all had our own portable harddrive, so we got to install whatever we wanted. I don't know any business environment where they run linux. Maybe a server is running linux, but most of the network would probably be windows. Personally I think windows > linux

I've worked at plenty of places with more *nix systems than Windows (atleast the systems that matter, not workstations).

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: malak
Mugs is right. At my uni we learned linux and novell, but chances are we'd be dealing with windows in a real job so we focused on that. No linux labs at all. Of course, we all had our own portable harddrive, so we got to install whatever we wanted. I don't know any business environment where they run linux. Maybe a server is running linux, but most of the network would probably be windows. Personally I think windows > linux

I've worked at plenty of places with more *nix systems than Windows (atleast the systems that matter, not workstations).

Workstations are the issue here though

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: malak

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: malak
Mugs is right. At my uni we learned linux and novell, but chances are we'd be dealing with windows in a real job so we focused on that. No linux labs at all. Of course, we all had our own portable harddrive, so we got to install whatever we wanted. I don't know any business environment where they run linux. Maybe a server is running linux, but most of the network would probably be windows. Personally I think windows > linux

I've worked at plenty of places with more *nix systems than Windows (atleast the systems that matter, not workstations).

Workstations are the issue here though

You mentioned servers, so you started it. You said most of the network would probably be windows. I'm disagreeing with that.

Workstations are practically worthless. I could do most of my job without all the fancy stuff (although it makes things much more fun), and I definitely don't need Windows.

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Workstations are practically worthless. I could do most of my job without all the fancy stuff (although it makes things much more fun), and I definitely don't need Windows.

And I can do my entire job with windows. No need to try to learn an entirely new system

 

[Crusty]

Originally posted by: tfinch2
We use Firefox in the CS lab, but then again it's a Debian box.

It all depends on how you have your account setup I used Mozilla for the longest time under Gnome, just recently switched to FireFox... but everytime I start it up it keeps on asking if I want it to be the default browser

All hail the mighty poopdeck!

 

[Nothinman]

It's more beneficial to them them to be familiar with the advanced features of Office programs, not an open source alternative that they'll likely never use in a business setting.

Hardly anyone knows how to use the "advanced" features of Office, and most of them are the same in OpenOffice maybe with a different name. And maybe if they knew how to use OpenOffice they could convince the company to switch over and save money, it's a long shot but it's possible depending on the size of the company and their entrenchment in MS-specific crap.

Personally I like what Schadenfroh says, except it would be smart to have a few (maybe 5-10%) Windows machines in there just in case. Promote the use of free software, but still give the students a choice.

Great move giving Opera away for free, they're obviously hoping the students will become familiar with it and want to continue using it after college.

It's more beneficial to them them to be familiar with the advanced features of IE, not a closed source alternative that they'll likely never use in a business setting.

but chances are we'd be dealing with windows in a real job so we focused on that. No linux labs at all

No Linux/unix labs at all is just plain stupid, it's like they were breeding you for rebooting Windows machines without showing you the other options available at all. I would be angry if schooling I paid for was pretty much just a boot camp for some company's products.

I don't know any business environment where they run linux

We a few, it's only a very small number of workstations but they're there. And if we weren't so entrenched in MS crap I'm sure we would have a good bit more.

Maybe a server is running linux, but most of the network would probably be windows.

We have a lot of Windows servers too, but mainly because we limit them to 1 or 2 jobs each because they don't handle it as well as unix. We also have a couple of Tru64 clusters, HP-UX, Solaris and Linux boxes running Oracle, some java crap, etc. And the Windows boxes require much more daily maintenance, most of the Linux boxes just run without any unscheduled intervention.

Personally I think windows > linux

That's pretty obvious. But how well do you know both systems?

It's also obvious that I think the opposite but I used to absolutely love MS crap, my first machine ran Win95, then Win98 betas, then Win98, then NT 4 (mostly at work), then an NT 5 beta, then Win2K. But once I installed Linux and actually figured it out I pulled a complete 180. Every machine of mine runs Linux now and I've been avoiding Windows for a few years now so I know I'm not 100% up to date, but I have a Win2K workstation at work and I have used XP on occasion and all they do was get on my nerves and frustrate me with their lack of good bundled tools, terrible CLI, etc.

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

Personally I think windows > linux

That's pretty obvious. But how well do you know both systems?

It's also obvious that I think the opposite but I used to absolutely love MS crap, my first machine ran Win95, then Win98 betas, then Win98, then NT 4 (mostly at work), then an NT 5 beta, then Win2K. But once I installed Linux and actually figured it out I pulled a complete 180. Every machine of mine runs Linux now and I've been avoiding Windows for a few years now so I know I'm not 100% up to date, but I have a Win2K workstation at work and I have used XP on occasion and all they do was get on my nerves and frustrate me with their lack of good bundled tools, terrible CLI, etc.

But why do you avoid windows? I avoid linux because I just plain didn't like it. I'm not in love with MS stuff, the only MS thing I generally use is windows. My other box uses a different shell, I use openoffice, I don't use IE, etc etc. That doesn't mean I don't know how to use those things, I just use something better. Linux, for me, is not better, it's worse. I tried doing the same things on linux that I do in windows, and I got frustrated very quickly. Some things just didn't work at all. I'm sure it works fine for you, but for me and 95% of the rest of the market, windows is better.

 

[Nothinman]

But why do you avoid windows?

Because Linux is easier in 99% of the cases. Why should I fight with Windows when I don't have to any more?

I tried doing the same things on linux that I do in windows, and I got frustrated very quickly.

Probably because you didn't put much time into it, it took me a while to get the hang of it too but once I did it makes a lot more sense and things are a helluva lot easier.

I'm sure it works fine for you, but for me and 95% of the rest of the market, windows is better.

I don't know if I'd go that far, I would guess that at least 80% of the rest of the market uses Windows because that's what they're given or it's all they know, not because it's techincally, financially, etc better for them.

 

[Zugzwang152]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

But why do you avoid windows?

Because Linux is easier in 99% of the cases. Why should I fight with Windows when I don't have to any more?

I tried doing the same things on linux that I do in windows, and I got frustrated very quickly.

Probably because you didn't put much time into it, it took me a while to get the hang of it too but once I did it makes a lot more sense and things are a helluva lot easier.

I'm sure it works fine for you, but for me and 95% of the rest of the market, windows is better.

I don't know if I'd go that far, I would guess that at least 80% of the rest of the market uses Windows because that's what they're given or it's all they know, not because it's techincally, financially, etc better for them.

yes, but time learning new system = $$$. as far as learning linux, i will never do it until i see a big surge in demand for it on the workstation. its just not economical when i could spend the time learning more advanced windows functionality, which means i can help more people.

 

[Nothinman]

yes, but time learning new system = $$$

Depends. I did a lot of it while I was at work =)

i will never do it until i see a big surge in demand for it on the workstation

So you'll wait until after the demand starts? Not a very good way to market yourself, by the time you learn it well enough to help people or do a job that involves it, it'll be too late. "I think I'll wait until that stock starts going back up before I buy, just to be safe."

its just not economical when i could spend the time learning more advanced windows functionality, which means i can help more people.

I worked on the helpdesk for over 5 years, I'm tired of helping people, it's much more convenient to say "Sorry, I don't use Windows, talk to him". And helping most people doesn't require any advanced features of Windows, just a lot of time and patience.

 

[n0cmonkey]

There is no reason for a college not to have a variety of things. Every college should have Windows machines, Linux machines, and Macs at least. Solaris boxes wouldn't be bad either.

 

[Crusty]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
There is no reason for a college not to have a variety of things. Every college should have Windows machines, Linux machines, and Macs at least. Solaris boxes wouldn't be bad either.

The CS dept here just bought a bunch of new Sun machines, they are tiny. I haven't had a chance to scope them out yet, but they look slick. We also have Windows/Linux/Mac boxes at our dispsoal.

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
I worked on the helpdesk for over 5 years, I'm tired of helping people, it's much more convenient to say "Sorry, I don't use Windows, talk to him". And helping most people doesn't require any advanced features of Windows, just a lot of time and patience.

Imagine how much more time and patience it would take if windows magically disappeared and people were forced to use linux for some odd reason. A completely foreign system that is harder to do things that were so simple in windows. Automation is great for people who aren't techies, which is most of the market. You say you have to fight windows to do stuff, but my own experience was that I had to fight linux to do anything. Frankly I wouldn't ever recommend it to anyone, as I've never seen the use of it, and all I ever hear is "it's easier, it's better, it's blah blah blah". Ok, but my experience told me otherwise.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: malak

Originally posted by: Nothinman
I worked on the helpdesk for over 5 years, I'm tired of helping people, it's much more convenient to say "Sorry, I don't use Windows, talk to him". And helping most people doesn't require any advanced features of Windows, just a lot of time and patience.

Imagine how much more time and patience it would take if windows magically disappeared and people were forced to use linux for some odd reason. A completely foreign system that is harder to do things that were so simple in windows. Automation is great for people who aren't techies, which is most of the market. You say you have to fight windows to do stuff, but my own experience was that I had to fight linux to do anything. Frankly I wouldn't ever recommend it to anyone, as I've never seen the use of it, and all I ever hear is "it's easier, it's better, it's blah blah blah". Ok, but my experience told me otherwise.

What if people were trained, from the beginning, to use Windows instead of Linux? Things would be the opposite. It's easier for some (Nothinman), hard for others (malak), and impossible for the brain dead.

Personally, I wouldn't care much if Linux disappeared. I think it's almost as hard as Windows.

 

[KoolDrew]

I used to be an Opera fan, but got sick of it loading some pages very slow. So I switched to Firefox.

 

[onelin]

ack, an opera thread hijacked for a windows vs linux debate! nooooooo

go opera goooooo available on linux and windows, hah! unity

 

[KoolDrew]

go opera goooooo available on linux and windows, hah! unity

So is firefox..

 

[Nothinman]

Imagine how much more time and patience it would take if windows magically disappeared and people were forced to use linux for some odd reason

I was speaking about time and patience for working with the OS i.e. cleaning spyware, running virus scans, etc. If everyone ran Linux I would suspect that it would take a lot less time and patience and I could do it from my home machine via ssh 90% of the time.

A completely foreign system that is harder to do things that were so simple in windows.

It's not harder, just different. Believe me, I've seen many people fumble around in Windows because they weren't taught how to use it.

You say you have to fight windows to do stuff, but my own experience was that I had to fight linux to do anything.

Sure, at first it does seem like fighting because you don't have a clue what you're doing. But once you have a clue and it clicks, it makes a lot more sense. Generally Linux's filesystem layout extremely organized instead of doing something stupid like dumping 3/4 of the files into \system32 and them hiding everything else 8 levels deep in \program files.

For instance, if I wanted to install nmap how would I do it on Windows? I would have to download nmap and at least winpcap, install and reboot at least once. Installing it on Debian is just 'apt-get install nmap' and 30s (depending on your network speed) later you're done.

Another good example is multiple network configurations. I use laptop-net on my notebook which watches my network card, when it's plugged in it does a few ARPs for certain hosts and if it finds one it sets up my network accordingly, everything from killing services, changing my Samba configuration to which proxy is setup in Gnome. And if the ARP thing fails I can still manually select one, which just happens to be the case on our new switches at work. And that package is included in Debian, no need to search for shareware or buy something.

as I've never seen the use of it,

I've never seen the use of personal HAM radios, but many people love them. Linux is about choice and power, with Windows you're at MS' mercy. If you don't know how to program I can see why having the source code available wouldn't mean much to you, but for those of us that can it's amazing to be able to get the source code for everything we use. Over Thanksgiving I added a feature to a piece of software I use on my notebook because the software didn't work exactly how I would have liked, it's great to be able to do that without having to decompile binaries or find cracks from shady websites.