Opinion Piece on Social Policies

[railven]

I think you guys should critique the message rather than using it to attack the messenger.

I am trying to keep it clean, but the message is without a doubt a reflection of the messenger in this situation.

If you've read the article and the information provided - he's known about these "viral marketers" for some time but only rang the bell when his relationship with AMD detiorated. ABT doesn't have the weight of Hardware Secrets, and it shows.

 

[BoFox]

There’s a key difference here – you aren’t going around and shilling products and/or services that your company provides. Staying anonymous is one thing, being a shill is something entirely different. Being a shill is actually illegal in some situations.

If there really are AMD shills among us then they need step forward and reveal themselves. The nVidia focus group did, now let’s see if you can.

As an aside, it’ll be interesting to see how Anandtech management reacts to this, if at all. The article seems to be implying that this forum is a sanctioned haven for AMD shills.

It's one hell of a good post that sums a lot of it up here!!

However, I am not sure myself as to whether this forum is actually a "sanctioned" haven for AMD shills, thinking that it's just a "loop-hole" in the rules that allowed this thing to go on as long as it did.

After participating here for a while and seeing how the admins enforce the rules upon the forum members, it seems that they have now become "more" equally strict with the AMD-biased posters as they were with the NV-biased posters. It's only my cloudy opinion (in this relevant thread stating "Opinion Piece") that does not carry enough weight to be a judgment in any way. The unfounded opinion thus far, based on the few things that I have seen here and there, is that the admins were actually indifferent to the AMD-biased posters coordinating with each other and flaming/threadcrapping the GTX 680 threads. The indifference was rather apparent, after 4 consecutive GTX 680 speculation threads were locked one after the other. After 6 GTX 680 threads were closed, and upon the closing of Keysplayr's official stickied GTX 680 reviews thread, I could sense that it was a moment when the admin realized its own indifference as to allowing the AMD-slanted posters to wreck all of those NV threads. After this, things started to look better here as the AMD-biased posters were now moderated in a better light, and with more fairness.

I personally appreciate how AT Forum is not as strict as some other forums (like Beyond3D for example), where the moderators here allow the discussion to become a bit PG-13 rated and juvenile at times. However, this very same "lenience" allowing the overall AMD slant is probably what made it appear as a "sanctioned haven for AMD shills".

No offense to Idontcare or ViRGE .. it's not intended to be an offense in any way, but only an open opinion that comes from limited participation thus far if it's ok to share here.

I completely agree. For me, that will be the most interesting outcome possible of that article and this thread.

Of course, it begs the question of whether or not an article like that should be a driver of change here - again, I agree with your assessment of the article and what it's main purpose is. The least interesting outcome is that there is no response, however I would think that is the most likely scenario.

I appreciate this topic existing, but it's hard to imagine that we'll see any information or arguments made that we haven't seen already (within it's context.)

Great post too!

I definitely agree with that, if there are any known shills/marketers they should disclose that - as it is their job to do so based on the social policies disclosed by certain companies.

Of course you had to agree with BFG10K's post! ^_^ Hehe.. just kidding.

 

[BoFox]

I don't really see any reason to bring this up... ABT is irrelevant. No one is paying attention their crusade against secret AMD shills other then their own forum members. It has no traction. It has no substance. No one really cares.

You go over to their forums, and all they do is preach to their own choir. This campaign of theirs has been going on for how many months now? And it has produced what exactly?

Wasted efforts. ABT was never much of a review site, but now it is even less so. If they want to change formats to that of investigation journalism, they can go right ahead. But someone needs to let the brains over there know that their investigation should at least produce something meaningful, instead of nothing at all.

Then why bring it up then? Well, I'm bringing it up here too, with a comical twist on your own words:

ABT is relevant. You are paying attention their crusade against secret AMD shills other then their own forum members. It has traction. It has substance. You really care [enough to post this].

You go over to their forums, and see that they do discuss this real stealth marketing and blacklisting going on right under your nose. This campaign of theirs has been going on for how many months now as a casual forum thread article in draft? And it has produced what exactly besides some greater awareness and traction?

Great efforts. ABT was always a good review site, but now it is even better. If they want to change formats to that of investigation journalism, they can go right ahead and publish an official article on this. But someone needs to let the brains over there know that their investigation should at least produce something absolutely earth-shattering, instead of moving along at a casual pace at the beginning.

:biggrin:

The whole thing is bullshit he's posted. ABT/editor there got cut off from AMD, went off the deep end, decided it was due to a conspiracy amongst posters here at AT.

Has zero proof, absolutely nothing but innuendo and paranoia. This is a real journalist ? What happened to the paragon of credible journalism; verification and confirmation from more than one source ? He doesn't even have a first source, let alone a second.

Let me know when he has some actual proof, something, anything at all more than just saying it's true. Sorry to be harsh, but it's no different than a schizophrenic who thinks demons are chasing him just because of a dysfunctional eerie feeling.

Not that I think it's beyond the realm of possibility for a company to use shills in forums, but, until I see evidence; the only viral marketing shill company on record around these forums is nvidia.

Might as well say Gskill is shilling here, Intel is shilling here, OCZ is shilling here, Seagate is shilling here, Microsoft is shilling here etc. There is as much 'evidence' provided (read none) those companies are, as there is that AMD is. The real question is why is he targeting AMD instead of any other random enterprise ?

Sounds like sour grapes and an axe to grind to me.

To quote you yourself:

Sorry to be harsh, but it's no different than a schizophrenic who thinks demons are chasing him just because of a dysfunctional eerie feeling.

:biggrin: Hehe LOL!! Haha?

My personal view would be whether you were posting on behalf of a company. If you are posting at home on your own time but happen to be an Nvidia or AMD employee then so be it. If your a cheerleader type of poster as apposed to a rational unbiased poster, then your habits will be clearly laid out for everyone to see and people rarely listen to those types. Really is an employee who loves the tech his company produces any different then a tech who mostly buys from company A, then buys one product from company B, gets burned and swears off Company B for life and spends the rest of his posting time talking up A, and bad mouthing B.

I think the big key in this is whether they are paid for their posts. Most people have bias. For whatever reason. But its another thing to actually get paid for posting "advertising" posts. It isn't even an issue for us posters but Anandtech in general. They are skirting around paying Anandtech for advertising, by giving one tech who will post in several forums money or hardware. They also targeted in the case of NFG, mods, and at the time respected posters. So they were buying into an already established level of respect and attention.

I don't have a problem with bias. I don't have a problem with cheerleaders. The worst get ignored by my profile. Most of the rest get ignored by me personally. Smart people, which I hope most of us are, will see right through them. It's the ones paid directly for their posts by the company, that makes me feel insulted (in that I would buy it), and I feel the practice is damaging to advertising supported forums. The NFG stuff really got to me here and was one of the reasons I stopped posting for a long time. Mostly because I was a fan of Nvidia products at the time (they were really coming into there own with stumbles by ATI at the time, just after the horrible 5k series) and I defended at least one of them.

Excellent post, dude! The part in red is superb reasoning (unlike the one about ghosts or eerie feelings).

Would it be too unusual that the very guy posting as a shill who suggested to AMD to blacklist ABT was indeed the guy who got paid for being a shill? Simple as that...

EDIT: - For any of those who are interested, Apoppin directly replied to some of your posts in this thread, starting here: http://alienbabeltech.com/abt/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=24247&view=unread#p63682

 

[railven]

Then why bring it up then? Well, I'm bringing it up here too, with a comical twist on your own words:

I posted this thread here after asking for permission because I've been following ABT's investigation since he made the accusation. I find his claims, and mostly timing, to be suspicious and I've continued to read hoping he uncovers something as you said above - earth-shattering.

It's not too unusual that the very guy posting as a shill who suggested to AMD to blacklist ABT was the guy who got paid for being a shill. Simple as that.

Where is the proof that Shills got ABT black listed? There hasn't even been a shred of evidence to support that claim either. Outside of Apoppin saying that is what happened and then starting to flinging mud in ATF's direction, where exactly was it proven?

Again, we're back at he-said-she-said for just about everything that's been claimed. And I find it ironic that you post here claiming it's more balanced versus what you post over at ABT.

During our private conversation you never addressed my point about timing - why did Apoppin sit on this information for so long and only reveal it after he got black listed? And what exactly does ATF have to do with his blacklisting?

To your Edit: Apoppin does have an account here. It wouldn't be hard for him to retrieve his password let alone ask a Mod to reset it.

 

[blckgrffn]

To your Edit: Apoppin does have an account here. It wouldn't be hard for him to retrieve his password let alone ask a Mod to reset it.

Haha, I think I have seen him exercise his posting ability a couple thousand times here

 

[Grooveriding]

I posted this thread here after asking for permission because I've been following ABT's investigation since he made the accusation. I find his claims, and mostly timing, to be suspicious and I've continued to read hoping he uncovers something as you said above - earth-shattering.

:thumbsup:

I welcome and appreciate your doing this. As distasteful and insulting as the nonsense that comes out of his mouth is to me personally. It's a positive to shine a light and call out the baseless junk he's trying to push around.

I hadn't looked at the muck there since the last thread on it here and seeing it now, it's come no further, mostly sunk to new lows. The only people buying into it over there seem to be diehard nvidia fans who just enjoy anything negative being said about AMD, regardless of context and lack of evidence.

 

[railven]

Here is just another example of why I'm so baffled:

AMD's PR man working at Edelman said so. "we see the posts and we don't care [what they post]"

That is a response to me asking for proof to ABT's blacklisting.

So, Edelman read's the posts - but they don't care what people post? So because they don't care, they act? How does that even work logically?

If it read "we see the posts, that's why we're banning you" bam! Smoking gun. But it reads the complete opposite. It seems more ABT filed a complaint, and that was the response - "we see the posts and we don't care."

More circumstantional evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence

Circumstantial evidence is evidence in which an inference is required to connect it to a conclusion of fact, like a fingerprint at the scene of a crime. By contrast, direct evidence supports the truth of an assertion directly—i.e., without need for any additional evidence or the intervening inference.

EDIT: To add, if that is the supporting evidence, what does that have to do with ATF? Because ATF continually gets singled out.

 

[busydude]

Jaydip and Bofox, you seem to rave about facts that Apoppin posted, but I don't see them really as evidence for this forum as a safe heaven for AMD shills. Can you both clarify this to me? Maybe I am missing something.

 

[Rvenger]

Speaking of bulldozer...




People who work for a certain company need to be accountable for what they say, JFAMD went into exile after trolling countless forums with misinformation.

At least he apologized for it.

 

[Lonyo]

I think you guys should critique the message rather than using it to attack the messenger.

The issue many people have is the messenger's underlying thought processes and actions which lead to the message.
The message comes from the messenger and is typically directed by the messenger's knowledge, experience, thought processes etc.

If the message is "I think this stuff is all true, here's two pieces of "evidence" to back up my story", then the message is basically the opinion of the messenger, and it's quite difficult to debate the message because it's quite lacking, therefore people instead look at the messenger and his behaviour to try and understand and analyse the message and where it comes from, since looking at the message doesn't achieve much.

Give a strong message, and the message might be what comes under scrutiny.
Give a weak message, and the messenger is the more likely target.

 

[superjim]

I like Intel's policy the best: "say what you want, just distance yourself from the company itself".

 

[SolMiester]

Every one of us is entitled to their own opinions.I prefer NV cards while u prefer Radeons and thats perfectly fine and we can safely coexist.I don't like the so called unbiased guys who comments like they are messiah of this age.We have blind fans from both side and they both become irritable at some point.I believe AMD should ask their employees to identify themselves in the tech forums jus like JFAMD did.When Keys post here u know he is member of NFG and u have been forewarned but what about some amd employees who may lurk here from time to time?Its beyond silly to think that there are no amd emploees among us and i ask them just to identify themselves.Thats it.

This^

 

[thilanliyan]

This^

Yeah but if supposed AMD employees are posting on their own time and are not actively promoting AMD products in the face of sound alternatives, why should they have to disclose where they work?

I know I certainly would never disclose which company I work for (regardless of industry), unless my job was to actually scour forums and provide tech support/advice.

 

[busydude]

This^

I don't think no one is disputing that in this thread.

But that does not mean that there are AMD shills here.. this is where I lost track with facts in that Apoppin's expose.

 

[SolMiester]

I am trying to keep it clean, but the message is without a doubt a reflection of the messenger in this situation.

If you've read the article and the information provided - he's known about these "viral marketers" for some time but only rang the bell when his relationship with AMD detiorated. ABT doesn't have the weight of Hardware Secrets, and it shows.

Umm, thats not true at all railven....i suggest you are confused with the timelines...I must say, you appear quiet eager to post and vilify ABT in this thread, more so than most other posters?

 

[SolMiester]

Yeah but if supposed AMD employees are posting on their own time and are not actively promoting AMD products in the face of sound alternatives, why should they have to disclose where they work?

I know I certainly would never disclose which company I work for (regardless of industry), unless my job was to actually scour forums and provide tech support/advice.

I dont think the issue is about those that dont promote their companies product, only those that do....This is all about the shills or employees or whatever troll another companies products and promoting their own......

Im not sure about US, but in NZ, brand X is not allowed to rubbish brand Y on TV.....

 

[SolMiester]

I don't think no one is disputing that in this thread.

But that does not mean that there are AMD shills here.. this is where I lost track with facts in that Apoppin's expose.

I dont for a minute doubt their is!

 

[sandorski]

The whole thing is bullshit he's posted. ABT/editor there got cut off from AMD, went off the deep end, decided it was due to a conspiracy amongst posters here at AT.

Has zero proof, absolutely nothing but innuendo and paranoia. This is a real journalist ? What happened to the paragon of credible journalism; verification and confirmation from more than one source ? He doesn't even have a first source, let alone a second.

Let me know when he has some actual proof, something, anything at all more than just saying it's true. Sorry to be harsh, but it's no different than a schizophrenic who thinks demons are chasing him just because of a dysfunctional eerie feeling.

Not that I think it's beyond the realm of possibility for a company to use shills in forums, but, until I see evidence; the only viral marketing shill company on record around these forums is nvidia.

Might as well say Gskill is shilling here, Intel is shilling here, OCZ is shilling here, Seagate is shilling here, Microsoft is shilling here etc. There is as much 'evidence' provided (read none) those companies are, as there is that AMD is. The real question is why is he targeting AMD instead of any other random enterprise ?

Sounds like sour grapes and an axe to grind to me.

Indeed. I won't bother even giving that "article" the page hit. This is a personal vendetta with nothing to show for it.

posted from AMD's gold plated Concorde at 30,000 ft above the Caribbean

 

[railven]

Umm, thats not true at all railven....i suggest you are confused with the timelines...I must say, you appear quiet eager to post and vilify ABT in this thread, more so than most other posters?

Actually:

http://alienbabeltech.com/abt/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=24247&start=470#p63707

AMD started to encourage their employees to use social media after '06 - when Nvidia left it after the AEG exposure. That is when Ir0x0r tried to recruit ABT as a flog site for AMD and when Nigel Dessau CMO started talking about "target viral marketing"

He knew well ahead about these "viral marketers" because he was approached by one.

Instead of throwing veil accusations, how about you read the article/or thread. I posted why I asked to make this thread and I've even given Apoppin the benefit of the doubt on the AMD Social Policy.

 

[sandorski]

Actually:

http://alienbabeltech.com/abt/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=24247&start=470#p63707


He knew well ahead about these "viral marketers" because he was approached by one.

Instead of throwing veil accusations, how about you read the article/or thread. I posted why I asked to make this thread and I've even given Apoppin the benefit of the doubt on the AMD Social Policy.

So he says anyway.

 

[SolMiester]

Actually:

http://alienbabeltech.com/abt/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=24247&start=470#p63707


He knew well ahead about these "viral marketers" because he was approached by one.

Instead of throwing veil accusations, how about you read the article/or thread. I posted why I asked to make this thread and I've even given Apoppin the benefit of the doubt on the AMD Social Policy.

Dude, i have read the thread, you suggested he brought out the viral shills as way to hit back at AMD for spurning his site for review units.....

 

[NIGELG]

ABT has this habit of insulting people here that I don't like.

 

[Keysplayr]

So, is everyone ok with me changing my name and not have any sig? That's the apologist vibe I'm getting from reading this thread. It's all ok. Am I wrong?
Also, correct me if I got this timeline wrong, but didn't AMD blacklist Apoppin right when he visited here at Anandtech and was descended upon by a drove of AMD fans? Isn't that when Apoppin stated that the AMD viral shills at Anandtech reported back to AMD and then AMD blacklisted ABT?
I just want to make sure I don't have this incorrect. Because I think the "campaign" to have AMD enforce their social media rules began after the blacklisting, unless anyone can show otherwise?

 

[bononos]

......
I agree with you, that companies should be accountable. I feel JFAMD got off easily. People probably now, like with Rollo, will look at openly associated members of a company with skepticism. But then again, I look at a lot of "speculative" posts with skeptism. The only thing I tak as truth are the reviews that correlate findings.


As for Keys, he clearly has a better grasp of being social. Rollo attacked people directly. I wish I could find the post by IDC about forgiving. Ironically JFAMD is no different then Rollo in which they twisted truths and attacked members. Yet, some people only see the wrong AMD has done yet forget the nVidia wrongs. This flip-flopping situations I made reference to before. You can't have it both ways.

JFAMD didn't get off easy compared to Rollo. Those 2 are not really comparable.

Rollo was a troll and he was very smart in going about it - which JFAMD is not. Rollo got people banned by baiting them - JFAMD did not do that. Rollo generated volumes of garbage - JFAMD did not do that. Rollo was inexplicably allowed back and then got perma banned again- and shortly after he might have something to do with the AT server crashing - JFAMD is not crazy enough to do that. After all that some posters still had 'bring back Rollo' in their sigs. So who got off easy?

 

[sandorski]

So, is everyone ok with me changing my name and not have any sig? That's the apologist vibe I'm getting from reading this thread. It's all ok. Am I wrong?
Also, correct me if I got this timeline wrong, but didn't AMD blacklist Apoppin right when he visited here at Anandtech and was descended upon by a drove of AMD fans? Isn't that when Apoppin stated that the AMD viral shills at Anandtech reported back to AMD and then AMD blacklisted ABT?
I just want to make sure I don't have this incorrect. Because I think the "campaign" to have AMD enforce their social media rules began after the blacklisting, unless anyone can show otherwise?

Why should anyone answer these questions when there is no evidence anything has happened? Sorry, ABT has to show something before it can be taken seriously.