Opteron or Athlon

[5t3v0]

mucker m8, I dont doubt for one second that Opterons clock higher at lower voltages than Athlons. I think you, and half the others, have missed the point though. We've been asked to recommend a processor for this guy who wont be overclocking it. Arguments about power consumption and lower vcores at higher clock speeds are not relevant. What matters to him is bang for buck at stock speeds and not invalidating warranty. I dont know about US prices, but over this side of the pond, the cost of the Opteron makes it less attractive to the non-overclocker. You're lucky you can get a 146 for that price. In the UK they've gone up to $310 equivalent and still arent in stock.

And yes, 720MHz is more than acceptable. What I was trying to say was that not all processors are created equal & the average overclocks you see in these forums are biased by the fact that its the people with the best OCs who tend to want to show off and those with poorer OCs who keep shtum. But as oveclocking isnt relevant in this thread, its not really important.

EDIT: MCochrane, if you're still watching this thread, please reply and clarify whether you really dont intend to overclock. Why is warranty so important to you? The likelyhood of having to claim on it is small. I would also imagine that it is quite hard to prove a cpu was overclocked unless there's visible damage on it. If these guys can talk you round and you go down the overclocking route then its a no brainer, the 146 all the way. Otherwise get a San Diego 3700+ like Serch suggests.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: 5t3v0
Zebo, how do Opterons consume less power?? The 146 has exactly the same wattage as the 3200 venice, i.e. 67W. Check the AMD quick reference guide if you dont believe me. I think you are comparing to the Newcastle which consumed 89W but who's buying those these days?

MCochrane, if overclocking is really not important to you, then get the Athlon. These Opterons are getting harder to come by (in the UK certainly) so you could be denying some poor overclocker of his dream processor. As Mucker has already said, it is a crime not to overclock the Opteron

Ignore all the advice to go cheap. Its good advice if you are overclocking as the biggest bang for buck is achieved on the cheapest processors like the Opteron 144 or A64 3000. As you are not overclocking, buy the fastest processor you can afford as this will future-proof your system for longer.

As warranty is an important concern for you, choose your mobo carefully if you go for the Opteron because many mfrs wont give technical support. Gigabyte do apparently.

I don't care what AMD's TDP says. it's wrong. Every site that measures out these CPU's shows about 35-55W depending on speed. The opteron has never been measured but it's default volts is lower than Desktop A64s 1.3 vs 1.4 and will use less power at same speed because of that.

 

[Viditor]

Originally posted by: 5t3v0
Zebo, how do Opterons consume less power?? The 146 has exactly the same wattage as the 3200 venice, i.e. 67W. Check the AMD quick reference guide if you dont believe me. I think you are comparing to the Newcastle which consumed 89W but who's buying those these days?

Sigh...I have been posting this a lot for the last year, but unfortunately there are so many reporters that get it wrong that most people still don't understand it.

TDP IS NOT POWER CONSUMPTION!
It really isn't even a good guideline for power consumption as manufacturers choose their own guidelines...

1. TDP is ONLY a reccomendation to system builders on what thermals (i.e. fans, case cooling, etc...) they should design for using that particular chip! Just because the guideline is expressed in Watts, doesn't mean that's how much power it uses. The acronym "TDP" stands for Thermal Design Point...

2. Power usage fluctuates drastically depending on many factors...heat, load, and what type of application being used are just a few.

3. AMD gives a TDP that is based on the absolute maximum theoretical conditions (whereas Intel does not). Both are perfectly valid TDP reccomendations...For AMD systems you will never hit the TDP level in actual use (so you are guaranteed to be safe), and the Intel TDPs are quite realistic for most every purpose (though it's probable that you will exceed them for short peak bursts).

4. No actual measurements are made on processors when deriving the TDP. Instead, the TDP is calculated using simulation software.

/rant

 

[MCochrane]

Yes I have been keeping track of this thread. I really appreciate everyones opinions and help on technical matters. The warranty honestly isn't too important to me, and overclocking isn't all that important either for the main reason that I am inexperienced. Although, I may be interested in the near future, so I will more then likely follow the advice of all the kind people on this forum and get an Opteron 146.

The only thing I am weary about is that it is not supported if I am not using a server motherboard, but with all the help on this forum, I doubt I will need AMD's support. The Athlon itself looks to be a great overclocker itself from all the things I have heard and read about it.

Another quick question I have; will I need to upgrade from stock cooling? If so I may just buy the OEM of the Opteron and get a seperate heatsink and fan. I am not the wealthiest man in the world so I am not wanting to buy a CPU, burn it up as a first time overclocker, and then have to purchase a new one, though, from the sound of it, doesn't sound too difficult to overclock.

Again, thanks for all the support here, it is much appreciated!

[EDIT] If needed, I can post all the components I have for the PC thus far (everything but the CPU). Just give me a yell if you'd like some links, I'd be more then happy to.

 

[5t3v0]

OK guys, using TDP to backup up argument was wrong. Thanks for explaining that. AMD also rate the 2 processors the as same voltage too. Is that wrong also? What I'm questioning here is that I see people say things like Opterons use less power than Athlons but where's the empirical evidence for this? Or is it based on observations of peoples vcores & the fact there's a lot of people running big overclocks on stock volts? Looking at that page Mucker sent me there's still about half the 144s using > 1.5v.

MCochrane, I used the the stock cooler for a a couple of weeks while I RMAd an Akasa and found it to be surprisingly effective even when OCing. I now have the Arctic Freezer pro which is an excellent cooler for such a low price. I did see a drop in temp of several degrees C from the stock cooler so if you're going to OC, its best to get something else.

 

[Mucker]

Just for shits and grins I did some calculating of that table from my above link for the 144 Opteron. Averages of 43 users:

Overclock = 2749 MHz
Volts = 1.502

Pretty impressive, nearly a 1000 MHz OC with a 0.1v increase. Don't tell me it's not scientific, I already know that . But it does give an idea how good these cpu's can be. The 146's are even better. Of course no OC is a guarantee, but I would take my chances on an Opteron over a vanilla A64 any day of the week. My guess is that a vanilla A64 is good for 400-800 MHz OC while an Opty is good for 700-1100 MHz. Mwave has these:

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=BA22046
http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=BA22047

A little pricey, but hey, there aren't many (any) out there.

The power issue is moot, it's all about performance (and MCochranes money). Trying to get him the best bang for his buck.

The stock HSF should be plenty fine to about 2600-2700 MHz, but it will be noisier compared to an upgraded one such as below.

When this is in stock, best bang for buck HS: http://www.bestbyteinc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=HSK-TRI-XP90

Is good for about 2800 to 2900 MHz in 72F ambient air.

Great fan: http://heatsinkfactory.com/Panaflo-92mm-High-Output-FBA09A12H1BX-p-16196.html

m

 

[kamranziadar]

Overclocker or Not Opteron is your best choice.

 

[Puffnstuff]

I went from a winnie 3500+ to a opty 175 and the opty is faster even though they both clock at 2.2ghz. Loading programs is much faster now with a dc opty and games are also loading faster and my average system power consumption is down but I also went from a 6800gt to a 7800gt co. The opty has a 1mb l2 cashe which also aides in performance and I'd have to give the nod to the opty.

 

[5t3v0]

Guys, I am totally with you. Opteron is king for overclocking. No contest. Why else did I get one. And I suspect that there is some truth in the argument that they consume less power above stock speeds. You'll have to excuse me for being a little skeptical though as I am pumping 1.55v into mine to get a modest 2.5GHz. These sorts of statements get said and spread without any question all the time in these forums. Anyway, I dont want to hijack MCochrane's thread with more arguments over power consumption so lets put that one to bed for now.

What us overclockers fail to do sometimes is to take a step back and see things from the non-overclockers point of view. Here you all are pushing your Opteron obsession to a forum newbie without really weighing up whats important. I see on mwave.com that the A64 3200+ Venice is $169 while the Opteron 146 is $209. Now if this guy isnt going to overclock, which he clearly stated at the start, is it worth him spending the extra $40 for an extra 512K of L2 cache? Unless he's loaded, then probably not. For $8 less than the 146 he can buy the 3500+ and get an extra 0.2GHz. However, as he has now shown some interest to overclock, by all means go for the Opteron.

Oh and comparing a dual core Opteron 175 and a single core 3500+ is like comparing apples and oranges. No wonder your system performs better.

 

[Mucker]

Well you are right about that 5t3vo, the decision becomes much harder if you're absolutely, positively going to keep the speed at stock. A retail A64 probably makes the most sense because of the warranty issue. Also, as you said, the Opteron on an unsupported board will get you nowhere with AMD (even at stock).

HOWEVER, overall it makes no sense at all. Any AMD cpu that runs at stock speed will 99.9% of the time NOT require servicing, so the warranty is pretty much moot. An OEM (with at least 30 day warranty period) and a really cheap sink may be more cost effective than retail. Personally, all of the five 146 Opty's I've owned had no problem hitting 2700 MHz stable on stock voltage. Literally, just punched in a few bios numbers and off I went. At 2700, max load temp could easily be controlled using the stock HSF, although at the cost of being a little noisier.

All A64's, whether vanilla or Opteron, are crying for OC. If you're careful in your approach, you'll end up with a long lasting, much better performing cpu at a fraction of the cost of its' stock equivalent....

 

[Makaveli]

Originally posted by: 5t3v0
You'll have to excuse me for being a little skeptical though as I am pumping 1.55v into mine to get a modest 2.5GHz.

http://wiki.extremeoverclocking.com/wiki/Opteron_Steppings

 

[Makaveli]

The reason I posted that link was even tho certain cores average out to be either good or bad overclockers. Its still the luck of the draw. Just cause u have the same stepping cpu as someone else, doesn't mean u will get the same results.

 

[Alaa]

i was getting a 3700+ but after this thread am definitly goin for opteron 148 but i want a good value motherboard to work with it..will ASROCK 939DUAL-SATA2 work fine with this cpu?

 

[5t3v0]

You guys are lucky you can get a 146 for $209. Its $100 more here in the UK. And in reply to Makaveli, yes it is luck of the draw and I am sad that my opteron is below par but at the same time I'm happy I've got a 700MHz oc. I think this is the message we need to convey to newbie overclockers. CPUs are not equal and it really is luck of the draw. I hope you all have a nice friday night. I'm just back from mine & I'm reekin', to use a good scottish phrase :beer:

 

[starwars7]

Hummmmm, I'm in the same boat as Alaa, I had thought I'd spend about $215 on a Sandy 3700, but it sounds like the Opterons are better. Is this the case even if I'm just going to use it to play video games etc.... (no servers)?

I'm also curious about the luck of the draw factor that was just mentioned. Are some CPU's not going to OC at all?

I was also wondering about Opteron supply, why are prices going up, is AMD cutting back on supply to raise prices?

 

[5t3v0]

I'm a bit rough around the edges this morning. Its not a pretty sight.

I dont think I've ever seen anyone (with the right setup) who hasnt been able to overclock an Opteron but then like I've said many times before, the people who dont have much to shout about will tend keep quiet & wont post their bad results. However, if you look at those links Mucker posted, the lowest overclock on the 144 is 2445MHz, and on the 146 is 2500MHz. That's a 36% and 25% overclock respectively. Not too shabby at at. What those samples also highlight, and I've said this a lot too, is that the Opteron 144 yields the biggest % overclock and represents by far the biggest bang for buck than any of its relatives. That's the processor I would recommend on the single core market for the price concious.

There's a lot of speculation going round about AMD stockpiling Opterons & selling only to the oem builders. It could be true. I think its more likely to be a good old fashioned supply and demand problem. There is a huge demand from the enthusiast market of course thanks to all this (justified) overclocking hype. Its virtually impossble to get hold of one here in the UK these days.

EDIT. Read this. Its official, AMD dont want us to buy Opterons and are putting the prices up on 23rd so if there's anyone still deliberating, get one quick before they do.

 

[bob4432]

Originally posted by: starwars7
Hummmmm, I'm in the same boat as Alaa, I had thought I'd spend about $215 on a Sandy 3700, but it sounds like the Opterons are better. Is this the case even if I'm just going to use it to play video games etc.... (no servers)?

I'm also curious about the luck of the draw factor that was just mentioned. Are some CPU's not going to OC at all?

I was also wondering about Opteron supply, why are prices going up, is AMD cutting back on supply to raise prices?

if price is equal or nearly equal, i would opt for the opteron. their is a good chance that if/when you o/c your o/c wil be higher than with the sandy. but, remember, i am not talking about a 100% difference, it really depends "on the luck of the draw"

as far as amd dropping production, i highly doubt that, the opteron was destined to "take over the server world" and has been chugging along nicely but those were the skt940 opteron that required either registered and or ecc ram and the 940 boards are server boards, usually with pci-x(not pci-e) and designed for the server enviornment. then amd released the opterons for the skt939 setup and made it so the registered and or ecc was not required. soon skt939 board manf started to support the otperons with new bios releases and then the enthusiast community got their hands on them. now a "server" machine is meant to be on 24/7/years so the opterons are the best of the best - best silicon, best everything however amd tests them. it turns out that being the best of the best and amd's conservative rating since they are server cpus they had usually incredible o/c headroom, thus the incredible demand from the enthusiast community. this has started to eat into amds "retail consumer/enthusiast" market so they may as well make some more $$$ on the opterons because in more than 1 case, the otperons were cheaper than a a64 or x2 of the same speed.

in all reality either way you go will be good. if the opteron is whatever you deem too expensive over a sandy of the same clock speed, then go with the sandy. but the best bang for the buck was the 144, but like 5t3vo says, some do better than others as you can see from my rig in sig, i got lucky or my board overvolts and the diode is reporting the wrong voltage, don't know...all i know is that it runs good and is much cooler temp wise than the 2.8->3.0GHz P4 C that it replaced and that is what i was looking for.

 

[starwars7]

Thank you guys so much for the help. If somehow you found a 144 and 146 for the same price, would you still get the 144?

I also heard that some cosumer apps may not run properly on the server CPU's, is there any truth to that?

In addition, what extra hardware would I need to get to OC, does it require more expensive RAM or would some Corsair Value RAM OC ok?

Thanks!

 

[5t3v0]

never heard that about apps not running on server cpus. Seems very unlikely to me.

If you could get the 146 for the same price as a 144 then obviously you'd get the 146 since the extra multiplier would more than like raise the OC. But you'll never get them for the same so it all depends on whats important, bang for buck or max OC. Sometimes the 144 OCs as high as a 146 so its worth saving yourself some money.

The most important components for OCing are the motherboard, the power supply unit & the cpu cooler. Getting high spec memory isnt necessary as you can use dividers on AMD64 without performance loss. Its a nice to have if you have the cash. Some value ram OCs fairly well too - look at the speed & timings of my GEIL value ram in my sig.

 

[bob4432]

Originally posted by: starwars7
Thank you guys so much for the help. If somehow you found a 144 and 146 for the same price, would you still get the 144?

I also heard that some cosumer apps may not run properly on the server CPU's, is there any truth to that?

In addition, what extra hardware would I need to get to OC, does it require more expensive RAM or would some Corsair Value RAM OC ok?

Thanks!

there is software that once you install a server os you can only use the server version of the software, but that is strictly software and not hardware.

i think i got a little lucky with my 144, so i would do it again, plus my board will do over 320htt(fsb) so mulitpliers is not a big deal to me.

as far as ram mine is only running at 210MHz. if i paid a ton of $$$ and was running my ram @ 280, sure my benchmarks would go up a little, but would i notice it for the amount of $$$ i need to get to attain ram that runs at that speed, not imo.

 

[starwars7]

Thank you guys for the information. So it sounds like as long as I don't install a Server OS on the PC, there should be no software issues.

I'm also glad to hear that expensive RAM isn't that important for OCing.

 

[bob4432]

Originally posted by: starwars7
Thank you guys for the information. So it sounds like as long as I don't install a Server OS on the PC, there should be no software issues.

I'm also glad to hear that expensive RAM isn't that important for OCing.

exactly

 

[5t3v0]

starwars, if its a "bang for buck" rig you're looking to put together then I would suggest a spec like mine or bob4432's, although I wouldnt bother with an SLi board if you're not going down that route. I thought I might go SLi in the future as an upgrade path but I think its unlikely now so I could have saved myself a few quid (£££).

 

[bob4432]

Originally posted by: 5t3v0
starwars, if its a "bang for buck" rig you're looking to put together then I would suggest a spec like mine or bob4432's, although I wouldnt bother with an SLi board if you're not going down that route. I thought I might go SLi in the future as an upgrade path but I think its unlikely now so I could have saved myself a few quid (£££).

just to clarify, i am still running agp, but the board was only ~$63

 

[starwars7]

Thank you guys for all of the help, this will be my first build. Right now I am thinking of something like this, I'm already at max budget, but I'd like to be sure that it will play the newest games at close to max settings and last me for quite some time.

Case: Lian-Li PC-7A PLUS-W
PSU: Sparkle FSP550-PLG-SLI 550W
Motherboard: EPoX EP-9NPA+Ultra ATX AMD
Processor: AMD OPTERON 144
Video Card: eVGA 256-P2-N386 Geforce 6800GS 256MB
Hard Drive: Western Digital 3.0Gbps 250GB 7200RPM 16MB Caviar SE16
DVD RW: NEC Black IDE DVD Burner Model ND-3550A - Retail
Memory: G.SKILL 512MB (2 x 512MB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM Unbuffered
Protection: BELKIN F8E093 Anti-Static Wrist Strap - Retail

Any cooling suggestions. I believe someone had mentioned these:

Fan: Panaflo 92mm High Output - FBA09A12H1BX
Heat Sink: Thermalright XP-90 Heatsink, No Fan, P4,478 K8,754/939/940