OS X tiger X86 edition

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imported_Lucifer

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2004
5,139
1
0
Whether the dialog has a bomb on it or not is irrelevant, the error dialog with the meaningless error codes still exists I'm sure.

In OS 9 it still exists. However, in OS X the retarded error codes are gone.

Laugh if you like, but it's true. Compared to Mac zealots most Linux zealots seem calm and collected.

Oh I wasn't doubting you. I just found your comment funny. Mac zealots are nuts.

Not sure if you read posts by The Linuxator, but he is just as bad, if not worse, than a Mac or PC zealot. He doesn't seem calm nor collected.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
In OS 9 it still exists. However, in OS X the retarded error codes are gone.

I can't recall any error dialogs from OS X right now, but I'm sure there are still some. And finder itself is retarded enough to take over for any error dialogs that they might have replaced.
 

chcarnage

Golden Member
May 11, 2005
1,751
0
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Because it's a mishmash of Apple history and unix semantics. They should have just jumped straight to UFS (since they chose Mach and FreeBSD as their core), but instead they decided to extend HFS. It apparently works, but it's not the best solution from a technical standpoint. That and the stupid directory names like /Users is really annoying.

When Apple introduced Extended HFS, OS X was still three years away. It is possible to install OS X on UFS formated volumes, the only downside is that you can't use the Classic Environment then (and any peripherals that only have drivers for MacOS 9). But OS X is fully UFS compatible.

I still don't get why it isn't the best solution from a technical standpoint. A strong points of HFS+ is instant defragmentation of files up to 32 MB and I don't know any technical drawback (but am not that savvy on the topic). Could you please name the technical downside (doesn't have to be a practical example).

On the /user thing, speaking of Unix compatibility, isn't this structure the way most *nixes handle it? The advantage is that each user only messes up his own account, given the proper rights. Also I was simple for me to import a user account from one Mac to another.

Whether the dialog has a bomb on it or not is irrelevant, the error dialog with the meaningless error codes still exists I'm sure.

There are no error codes in OS X itself but maybe you have to use a specially gifted app or something. Anyway what's the argument against error codes? Those in OS 9 made sense and were documented. And doesn't Windows' BSOD provide codes that are cryptic to the average user but helpful for programmers?

The bomb is gone in OS X, you mixed up OS 9 and X here.

In my opinion stability neither is a problem for the newer versions of Windows nor for those of OS X. There are better arguments for and against this OSes. Those who like kernel panics with transparency effect should go for OS X while those preferring blue and soon red screens of death should stick with Windows.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Originally posted by: chcarnage
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Because it's a mishmash of Apple history and unix semantics. They should have just jumped straight to UFS (since they chose Mach and FreeBSD as their core), but instead they decided to extend HFS. It apparently works, but it's not the best solution from a technical standpoint. That and the stupid directory names like /Users is really annoying.

When Apple introduced Extended HFS, OS X was still three years away. It is possible to install OS X on UFS formated volumes, the only downside is that you can't use the Classic Environment then (and any peripherals that only have drivers for MacOS 9). But OS X is fully UFS compatible.

OS X is not fully UFS compatable. It's dependant on HFS+ for many applications to work properly.

The thing is is that UFS does not support resource forks, which are nessicary for Apple applications. To use UFS you'd have to deal with all these hidden files and whatnot to gain compatability and even then it's not 100%

It's probably have improved somewhat since I used it though. (around 10.2.4-6)

The reason Apple has UFS, I beleive, is because HFS+ is not completely POSIX compliant and certain file symantics are required for certain types of Unix-related services and such that Apple wants to support on the OS X server.

For instance HFS+ is case insensitive. Unix stuff has always been case sensitive. This is a problem for many things.

I still don't get why it isn't the best solution from a technical standpoint. A strong points of HFS+ is instant defragmentation of files up to 32 MB and I don't know any technical drawback (but am not that savvy on the topic). Could you please name the technical downside (doesn't have to be a practical example).

HFS+, at least it seems to me, is old file system technology. Like FAT32. It's generally fairly fragile compared to more modern things like NTFS or Ext3.

A big example of this is the fact that HFS+ does not support journalling features, which it needs.

Journalling is nessicary so that a OS knows weither or not the directory system is in a consistant state when your recovering (rebooting) from a crash or power failure. It keeps track of directory changes and file changes in a way that reduces chances for a non-repairable file system or severe data loss. Things like Ext3 even takes this a step further and supports features for data journalling.

During the OS 10.2 series Apple introduced a journalling feature for HFS+ implimented on a BSD-style VFS. This was disabled by default, but I beleive it's standard for 10.3 and newer versions. This provides a sort of protection, but at a cost of performance. On machines without much cpu to spare then you can have a severe performance drop. On newer machines it's less of a issue.

The VFS itself is fairly irritating in the way that Apple does stuff. When you log into a shell your not actually seeing the HFS+ file system as it realy is. Instead it's a sort of emulated thing using the bsd vfs stuff. For instance the file seperators are : instead of / like in other unixes and full paths begin with the volume name instead of the root directory.

Normally this isn't a big issue, but when your trying to write scripts and such it can be confusing going from the 'Mac OS Aqua' stuff to the 'Darwin Unix' stuff.

Also in my experiance the file system is fairly fragile. Out of the macs I helped out with file system damage was the only consistant problem. Otherwise they were very reliable machines.

Except you have to realy realy be carefull of apple updates. You almost NEVER want to update your machine when there are big updates aviable. You wait a couple weeks to a month for other users to find workaround and give apple a chance to fix bugs they introduce.

If Apple was to introduce a new filing system with all the advanced featues of something like ext3/XFS/ntfs with improved I/O performance and high reliability I think that more people would want to use it as a server system. At least that's the way I look at it.

Apple has done a lot of other things very right though. The main reason I personally choose Linux over OS X is the freedom aspect of it. (that and Debian rocks) Apple is open when it's convient for them and is actually quite a bit more closed then Microsoft for other aspects. Otherwise I feel that Apple has a much better 'end user experiance' then Windows or especially Linux, but that Linux would still make a superior server and has better security.

On the /user thing, speaking of Unix compatibility, isn't this structure the way most *nixes handle it? The advantage is that each user only messes up his own account, given the proper rights. Also I was simple for me to import a user account from one Mac to another.

Well actually it's /home/ directories were you keep your user's files and preferences. Traditionally. But they have user's files and preferences in /Users directory. Why? I have no clue. There is a /usr/ directory traditionally in Unix, but that is mostly for various program's directories and such.

In unix-land people tend to take the directory system very seriously. It works, it's traditional, and it's seems very stupid to change it for seemingly no good reason.

Apple has added all sorts of things and changed things for seemingly no good reason.

It may seem like a small thing, but having files located in predictable locations because of their purpose and design is a handy thing to have. When I go into /home/ I know what to expect. When I see a error involving a file in /usr/local/lib I know what sort of things are their without having to look at anything.

It's not a huge issue, but it does raise the PITA rating a notch or two.

 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
On the /user thing, speaking of Unix compatibility, isn't this structure the way most *nixes handle it? The advantage is that each user only messes up his own account, given the proper rights. Also I was simple for me to import a user account from one Mac to another.

Like drag said it's supposed to be /home. And I think Apple creates both (maybe one's a symlink to the other, I don't have a Mac handy to check) for compatibility reasons, so what's the point in the funky names? It's not like the user sees the filesystem most of the time anyway, Finder hides most of that from them.

There are no error codes in OS X itself but maybe you have to use a specially gifted app or something. Anyway what's the argument against error codes? Those in OS 9 made sense and were documented. And doesn't Windows' BSOD provide codes that are cryptic to the average user but helpful for programmers?

The error codes are important, but it's not terribly hard to write code to decipher them for the user. Infact, in the majority of cases it's just a call to strerror(3) to get a string describing the error number. And yes, the Windows BSOD provides an error code but it also provides a string (i.e. unmountable_boot_volume) along side it. And a BSOD or kernel panic is a special case because it's all done in kernel mode so the nice userland functions like strerror(3) aren't available and since there was a really bad problem in the kernel you can't be 100% sure anything will actually work so you have to do a little work as possible before halting the system.

 

Wuzup101

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2002
2,334
37
91
Originally posted by: Nothinman
In OS 9 it still exists. However, in OS X the retarded error codes are gone.

I can't recall any error dialogs from OS X right now, but I'm sure there are still some. And finder itself is retarded enough to take over for any error dialogs that they might have replaced.

What's wrong with finder?
 

spyordie007

Diamond Member
May 28, 2001
6,229
0
0
Laugh if you like, but it's true. Compared to Mac zealots most Linux zealots seem calm and collected.
I agree, Mac zealots are the worst.

I can also attest to HFS+ being somewhat fragile; most of the serious OS X issues I've run into were also file system related.
while those preferring blue and soon red screens of death should stick with Windows.
AFAIK the "red screen of death" was in one of the early pre-alpha builds of longhorn but wont ever actually make it into any product. The current builds of Vista (I'm running 5270) work basically the same as XP on system halts.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: spyordie007
Laugh if you like, but it's true. Compared to Mac zealots most Linux zealots seem calm and collected.
I agree, Mac zealots are the worst.

Haha, yeah.
I had one of those at work before, we didn't actually argue about Mac OS vs WIndows/Linux/whatever, but rather about Athlons and Pentiums vs G4's.
I kept showing him SPEC results, gaming results, the works, the guy just wouldn't quit quoting the numbers from Apple's site as the End all, Be all benchmark
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
What's wrong with finder?

I just don't like it, I like explorer-like tools much better. And I really hate that everything you mount appears on the desktop in a seperate icon.

AFAIK the "red screen of death" was in one of the early pre-alpha builds of longhorn but wont ever actually make it into any product. The current builds of Vista (I'm running 5270) work basically the same as XP on system halts.

The color is changable via the registry, so you can have a RSOD if you really want it.
 

Link19

Senior member
Apr 22, 2003
971
0
0
Is MAC OS 9 a full 32-bit OS? Or is it a native 16-bit OS with 32-bit extensions just like Windows 95/98/ME?
 

Maximilian

Lifer
Feb 8, 2004
12,603
9
81
Originally posted by: Link19
Is MAC OS 9 a full 32-bit OS? Or is it a native 16-bit OS with 32-bit extensions just like Windows 95/98/ME?

Think it has extensions, it uses the same basic core that system 1 used apparently. Windows 9x basically still used dos so i would imagine its a native 16 bit OS.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: Falloutboy
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: EssentialParadox
Thanks for the very detailed and non-generic description, along with a circumstance on which it's happened (most likely it's OS9)

So a dialog pops up saying the system crashed? .....Seriously? I find that hard to believe.

I didn't write down the message, but that was the jist of it. It's been a while since I've seen it, so:
here's a picture of it from a random google image search
this looks like a different crash

Not to mention the beach balls of death!

Many times it was a driver issue (RALink's USB wireless network driver). I can't remember when else I've seen it, but I've seen it in other circumstances too.

EDIT: Oh, and it was definitely with OS X.


OS X is still backwards compatable, they built in a compatabilty layer, it ain't the greatest but it works, sorta simlar to Wine in linux
I'm lost.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
In OS 9 it still exists. However, in OS X the retarded error codes are gone.

I can't recall any error dialogs from OS X right now, but I'm sure there are still some. And finder itself is retarded enough to take over for any error dialogs that they might have replaced.

They still exist, I've seen them. I have a link around here somewhere that explains some of them...

I have no problems with Finder though.
 

SKORPI0

Lifer
Jan 18, 2000
18,431
2,348
136
Originally posted by: QueBert
no doubt Tiger x86 will support hardware outside what Apple puts in their box. Apple won't support it, and we won't see legit drivers. There are already ready Nforce 1/2/3/4 hacks out for the x86 Beta. I imagine when it goes retail, kiddies will have a field day. While I doubt it will ever be legal to buy a copy of x86 without having the Apple hardware to run it. We will still see Tiger x86 being ran by plenty of people who shouldn't be.
Sucessfully installed it on a DFI ZNF3-250 mobo, Athlon 64 3700 (, 1GB PC3200, and Nvidia GeForce4 Ti4200. I got a hacked/patch OSX Tiger 10.4.3 DVD and tried it out of curiosity. So far I'm impressed how the system performs compared to the Windows XP. Of course I'll have to do more test and maybe upgrade some parts.

I'll still have to figure out how to connect to the internet and some other things.

Not bad for a system in which I can now switch OS with a mobile rack.

Suse Linux 10.0, Windows XP, then OSX Tiger.

Pic






 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
1
81
Originally posted by: SKORPI0
Sucessfully installed it on a DFI ZNF3-250 mobo, Athlon 64 3700 (, 1GB PC3200, and Nvidia GeForce4 Ti4200. I got a hacked/patch OSX Tiger 10.4.3 DVD and tried it out of curiosity. So far I'm impressed how the system performs compared to the Windows XP. Of course I'll have to do more test and maybe upgrade some parts.

I'll still have to figure out how to connect to the internet and some other things.

Not bad for a system in which I can now switch OS with a mobile rack.

Suse Linux 10.0, Windows XP, then OSX Tiger.

Pic

You're breaking the law.
 

Link19

Senior member
Apr 22, 2003
971
0
0
Originally posted by: Ecgtheow
Originally posted by: Link19
Is MAC OS 9 a full 32-bit OS?

Yes.



Are you sure? If it was based on System 1 which was 16-bit, how is it a full 32-bit OS? Or did they remove all of the 16-bit code completely?

Is it completely true that Windows 95/98/ME are just 16-bit operating systems with 32-bit extensions?
 

remagavon

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2003
2,516
0
0
Originally posted by: SKORPI0
Originally posted by: QueBert
no doubt Tiger x86 will support hardware outside what Apple puts in their box. Apple won't support it, and we won't see legit drivers. There are already ready Nforce 1/2/3/4 hacks out for the x86 Beta. I imagine when it goes retail, kiddies will have a field day. While I doubt it will ever be legal to buy a copy of x86 without having the Apple hardware to run it. We will still see Tiger x86 being ran by plenty of people who shouldn't be.
Sucessfully installed it on a DFI ZNF3-250 mobo, Athlon 64 3700 (, 1GB PC3200, and Nvidia GeForce4 Ti4200. I got a hacked/patch OSX Tiger 10.4.3 DVD and tried it out of curiosity. So far I'm impressed how the system performs compared to the Windows XP. Of course I'll have to do more test and maybe upgrade some parts.

I'll still have to figure out how to connect to the internet and some other things.

Not bad for a system in which I can now switch OS with a mobile rack.

Suse Linux 10.0, Windows XP, then OSX Tiger.

Pic

Congrats; you're a software pirate!:roll:
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
Is it completely true that Windows 95/98/ME are just 16-bit operating systems with 32-bit extensions?

They still used DOS to boot, but even so I'd say it was vice versa.
 

Link19

Senior member
Apr 22, 2003
971
0
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Is it completely true that Windows 95/98/ME are just 16-bit operating systems with 32-bit extensions?

They still used DOS to boot, but even so I'd say it was vice versa.



What do you mean? Do you mean it would be more accurate to call them 32-bit operating systems rather than 16-bit operating systems? Even though they happen to be crappy 32-bit operating systems that depend on legacy 16-bit code to boot and function.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
What do you mean? Do you mean it would be more accurate to call them 32-bit operating systems rather than 16-bit operating systems? Even though they happen to be crappy 32-bit operating systems that depend on legacy 16-bit code to boot and function.

Yes.
 

Ecgtheow

Member
Jan 9, 2005
131
0
0
Originally posted by: Link19
Are you sure? If it was based on System 1 which was 16-bit, how is it a full 32-bit OS? Or did they remove all of the 16-bit code completely?

The Mac was never 16-bit. The first Macs used the 32-bit Motorola 68000, although they only supported 24-bit addressing. Later models were fully 32-bit.
 
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