(OT) My (anti)Linux Rant

[Possessed Freak]

Well last sunday I tried it again. This episode lasted the shortest length of time: 4hrs.

Why you say?
Was it because I could not get my NIC to work?
Was it because I could not get any modules loaded?
Was it because I could not even compile a driver?
even though all those happened, it was not the reason.

The situation worsened to the fact I had to get an ICS type machine up and running ASAP because my old ICS box died during my time with linux. So I dropped linux on that second and installed win2k.

So afterwards I had divine inspiration on why linux will never be a mainstream OS:

Since it is open source and anyone is allowed to change it, there is no accountability for problems arrising, (oh your modem does not work now, sorry, I tried...)
The best that could ever happen to linux is for red hat, or other distributers to have a set of drivers they have thoroughly tested, offer it in precompiled form as WORKING, support those drivers, support the user, but allow them to download the source and improve on it if they want to (open lisence thingy Linus had made) but don't support anything not gotten directly from them. Tech support is a wonderous thing, and while I could beg LD, TF, or Hawkeye for help on the irc channel, that is not the same as a professional who gets PAID to solve things.

I am reminded of the altair and how there was a community of 110% geeks who made programs and shared them out. Linux is nothing more htan an iteration of that, and remember what ended up having... B.G. started up his biz making a program he got paid for supporting for the Altair. Betaware and shareware can never compete with buyable programs because the coders and developers will always be doing this as a hobby. While this can be a good thing, I mean, how much effort do you really put into work: the min. to get by is what most do. But, hobbies are not something you can live off of.

I hope Linux improves, I hope it gets snagged up by a company and gets support like every other program out there.

 

[AppleTalking]

I basically agree with you about Linux. It's a great operating system if you know all of its in-and-outs, but if you don't, you're screwed. Companies keep claiming to make Linux more and more user-friendly, but yet I still see the same kind of "how come I double-click on the application and nothing works?" posts in technical support forums.

Linux can be a powerful operating system that the user can freely change and adapt however he pleases, but it requires patience, intelligence, and above all, a lot of technical programming knowledge.

Nick

 

[BGod]

Every time I tried to install it on two of my systems (Abit LX6, P2 266MHz) (Abit BE6, P2 400) I kept getting "Kernel panic" and it wouldn't do squat!

Klinux is as close as I'll ever come to running full blown Linux.

 

[BurntKooshie]

Bgod - same with me, I did the lnx4win install of mandrake. For that, at least, the secret was to boot from within windows, and never use the boot loader.

 

[Robor]

I gave up on Linux long ago. Got Red Hat 5.? up and running and realized, what next? Sure it's cool to play around with but I lost interest quickly. I find it funny when I hear Linux fans trash MS as buggy, unstable, etc. Well, at least it can run some programs! The arguement usually goes, "I can do anything in Linux that I'd normally do in Windows". Well, that's fine but apparently that person doesn't do the same things as me. I'd rather be able to simply install virtually any piece of hardware I want and run any program I want. Can Linux do that? The answer is absolutely not.

Linux and all other *nix versions for that matter have one purpose and that is as servers. Linux will never be a mainstream desktop OS until it can compete with Windows in both hardware and software support. I don't see that happening anytime soon...

Rob

 

[DanC]

Gee... I feel pretty good now. A couple of 'nix "Gods" that can't get Linux up?

I have 2 Linux servers now. It's not even like wearing pantyhose anymore. In fact, I kind of like Linux. :Q

 

[networkman]

Hey! And I thought I was the only Linux idiot around here - glad to see I have good company!

 

[DanC]

Sorry guys - from my perspective Linux ROCKS!

 

[sduguid]

<< Linux and all other *nix versions for that matter have one purpose and that is as servers. Linux will never be a mainstream desktop OS until it can compete with Windows in both hardware and software support. I don't see that happening anytime soon... >>



I also started out with an old version of Redhat. Since then, tremendous strides have been made in terms of hardware compatibility and ease of installation and use.

When I began, I had to know the IRQ's, etc of ALL of the system hardware but now that is not the case. Mandrake 8.0, for instance, has been able to automatically detect all hardware on many installs I have done. It even detects non-plug and play isa cards in many cases.

Lately, I've noticed that people who previously had no hope of using Linux have begun to play around with it because it has become much easier to use.

I agree that it still has a long way to go before the masses could consider using it as a desktop platform, but if progress continues to be made at the same rate, I think that day will arrive.

By the way, I also agree that it will take quite some time for mainstream software to catch up...

 

[kmmatney]

I tried Linux about 2 years ago, couldn't get 3 modems to work, couldn't get things working in general, then gave up. Maybe some day I'll get the courage to try it again. I am going to try my luck with klinux, I think, since I have quite a few old systems I want to get crackin'.

 

[TwoFace]

Ah PF, I tried telling you in IRC... you tried installing semi old versions of linux... like sduguid said mandrake 8 for instance would've just installed on your system and been up and running in no time.

While I agree driver support would be nice, hey support of any kind would be a nice offer, it's usually not needed for just the install phase of linux anymore. The new brand of linuxes out there like Mandrake 7.2/8 and Red Hat 7 are (if you choose so) as easy to install and get working as windows IMO. A few choices like timezone and keyboard layout and you're up and running.

I first started learning linux not that long ago, and now I've got almost everything I've wanted to have on two linux &quot;servers&quot; and a gateway machine at home. I've got web, mail (smtp and pop3), ftp, dns, firewall/gateway all running on linux. It's not like I'm a big wiz linux guru to have all this, it's just that it's gotten easier and easier to install and setup. For instance my mail server... It's running Mandrake Corporate Server, and all I had to do to get both smtp and pop3 up and running with any aliases I want and stuff was configure the network in a wizard and run a mail wizard, then edit out three # in one file and add aliases in another file (both things are thouroughly documented on Mandrake Users in their connectivity section under &quot;mail the unix way&quot;. All in all starting with a blank hdd and installalling Mandrake Corporate Server until I have a working mailserver is something like 1 hour. Out of that hour 30mins are spent choosing packages because I don't want to let it choose FOR me... if you just let it install with the default options it would be 35mins until working mailserver.

Linux is harder to use than windows, not because the GUI is less intuitive or any such thing, but because you can do so much more IMO. I for one wouldn't have a second thought about setting up someone who had never used linux before with say a mandrake 8 desktop tho'. Depending a little on what they were going to do of course, but for daily internet use (browsing, mail, ftp, news irc....) it's as simple as installing and running.

Btw. if you actually made it through all that without dying of boredom, try a new linux distro (I'd recommend Mandrake 8 for ease of install) and see if that isn't easier. Do it on an available machine that isn't &quot;mission critical&quot; to you if you have one, or if not use the option BK did which will at least give you a feel for how it operates. I promise you that the daily internet use and install isn't what is the big problems for linux anymore. Supporting more rare hardware (like some raid devices maybe...) and running games can be problematic tho'.

With love and respect your fellow TA member

Two-Face
My stats:
RC5
OGR-25
Seti
Gamma Flux

 

[Imported]

I like Linux... when it's used for a gaming server.

 

[Robor]

I was using an older machine (P-200/64EDO/S3Virge/3Com NIC/No sound/No USB/etc) and all of my hardware was detected properly. I had no problem with the install. It really was as easy as an average Windows 2000 install, but quicker. I was very surprised. One thing I did notice was the version of Netscape I used (can't remember which version) crashed a lot. My biggest problem with Linux was the lack of software titles available. Can Linux run the things I want? Games like Tribes, Tribes2, Unreal, UT, UT (w/Strike Force 1.6 mod), Total Annihilation, Rogue Spear, Serious Sam, No One Lives Forever, etc. How about some 'net programs? I'm sure Linux has a news client but I do a lot of newgroup browsing and prefer Forte Agent 1.8 for a news browser. Does it run under Linux?

I have nothing against Linux, I just prefer Windows because it's much better suited for what I do, at least on my primary system. I've got 4 boxes at home (my home SETI fleet) but I only use 2 of them on a regular basis (yes, I'm a SETI addict). Maybe I'll load Linux on one of the other 2 strictly SETI boxes. I've heard Linux w/WINE is pretty quick. Plus, it never hurts to learn more.

Rob

 

[Kilowatt]

You tell him TTWWOOFFAACCEE

 

[Lord Demios]

As many of you know I am a pretty large Go Linux person. The first thing that I notice that almost ALL people who start playing with Linux is they complain it's not like windows.

To that I say. DUH!

If it were windows it would say MS somewhere on it. Those who say they can't run games, I would love to show them that my UT runs better in Linux then it does in Windows. The reason, you have to do some reading. Your right, it's not the easiest OS in the world. If I wanted that I would buy a Mac, (which now is based on a Unix Core). But it is an OS that you can do what ever you would like for free. The cost of running this OS, is patience, some time, and maybe even a SPARE computer. That way when your frustrated or learning this stuff, you have an outlet for venting and the ability to see what is wrong.

Another BIG problem I notice is people installing old Distro's of Linux. You can NOT judge Linux based on a bad experiance of a Linux install when you use an old version. I won't touch RedHat 5.2 with a stick, but my firewall runs it. At the time it was what I needed, and it was not easy. The new Mandrake 8.1 install is quite a bit easier, and more windows like on the setup. With Debian this isn't much of an issue AFTER the server is running, but the install is quite a bit harder on 2.1 and older versions. The reason for this is because it was not intended to be &quot;Windows Easy&quot; for the setup. Linux users didn't care for the GUI to much. That has changed.

The Kernel...... Why does everyone feel that they need to make a new kernel FIRST THING. Read the kernel how to's. If you play with the kernel DO NOT delete the working old kernel image. If you make a mistake that is the only thing (other then a boot/rescue disk) that will allow you to boot back into Linux. When you have been using Linux for a while, you will then know what you need in your kernel, and what you don't.

I guess to wrap it all up, I would want to stress these things.

1. Use a test machine, something SPARE.
2. Use a Current DISTRO! (http://www.linuxiso.org)
3. Be willing to read!
4. Understand that the Kernel is what gives you the hardware support, so read the hardware howto at (http://www.linuxdoc.org)


Now to prove to you guys that I do know Linux has problems.

When installing Mandrake, try using reiserfs. Why, because EXT2 (default Linux file system) has something called an fsck, (File System Check), or if you swap out the s with a u, you will get the word you say when you see that program run. Why o WHY can't they make a good File System.

The corps that feel that they don't need to help the Linux guys make drives for their hardware in Linux. If you are trying to get hardware acceleration going in Linux and you have a TNT/Nvidia based card. Hope you like modules. It's easy to do, but it does have problems. I can't use the 1.0 version of those drivers on Debian for some reason. Doesn't really mean much, but it's a pain.

And the fact that Wine really doesn't work on all the programs that would be nice, but it does on the ones that are needed. (office sweets, and Single Player games of Serious Sam.)

Anyway. Just some stuff to think about before you dive into Linux.

LD

 

[DanC]

<< I am a pretty large Go Linux person >>



:Q:Q:Q:Q:Q

Just kidding...
I'm glad I took the plunge. No, it's not easy, but it's worth it.

 

[Possessed Freak]

I am not disputing that linux is useful, I am not disupting that linux works. My rant is not on the OS's usability but on the fact that the support is from junkys such as LD, they don't know everything, can't know everything, and can't be at fault if something does not work. THat is why I think the OS will fail as a mainstream one. The fact that you have to download all the applications you want instead of walking into staples or bestbuy and pull out a linux office suite and linux utilities other than the ones that are bundled with an overpriced distro. Paying 50 bucks for a linux distro knowing full well that I will have to download more crap for it to make it what I want and I better get the right crap and not the old crap because the old crap has bugs in it, but the crap is 4 seconds old, that is the old crap, the 2 second old crap is the new crap. Oh the programmers will look at every application and immediatly know innately if there are any bugs in it, that is how this works, they just look at it, fix the bugs and give you the better version, but what if they miss a few? what if they few they miss give you a huge security leak? It does not matter because only about 3 people run linux, all the rest just claim they do, so those 3 people will not hack into eachothers boxes? why? because they are too busy making a new kernal, the 2.2.41.1.2.2.21.6.3.4.3.2.2.3.1.3.3.4.3.6.4.6.6.7.8.77777 is too old, and does not fully support MFM hard drive emulation over scsi3 addressing... so we have to add that but in order to do so you lose compatability with cga monitor suport over the AGP bus....

 

[Robor]

As much as I totally agree with PF I'm in the process of downloading Mandrake 8.0. Props to TuffGuy for setting me up with the links to get the .iso's. I'm going to give Linux another try. I'll be honest, I have shallow expectations. All I want is a basic Internet capable box with the ability to run WINE &amp; the Seti@Home client. I'll take anything after that as fun and learning. Will find out over the weekend.

Rob

 

[kmmatney]

I think I will try running Linux again. I have a few spare boxes, and it would be nice to have a &quot;legal&quot; operating system on them. The boxes are K6-2 300, Pentium 233, and Pentium 166, all with 64 or more MB of RAM. Is this sufficient for a decent Linux system for simply cracking RC5, and perhaps playing around with WINE? Does the RC5 client work with WINE?

 

[ottawanker]

Back to LD, I just wanted to add some thoughts...

>I guess to wrap it all up, I would want to stress these things.
>
>1. Use a test machine, something SPARE.

This is definately a good idea. If you have something like a k6-2, pentium 2, old celeron, etc., with say 64 MBs of RAM, and a 2 Gig hard drive, you have yourself a kicking Linux machine.. Well, maybe not kicking, but for testing, your well off.

>2. Use a Current DISTRO! (http://www.linuxiso.org)

Most current distributions contain hardware support for everything. I installed the Fool's Day beta of Mandrake 8 on my main machine a couple months ago, and it even had drivers for my Radeon, which I thought was quite impressive.

This brings me to another point; the war of the distribution. If you have a Linux test machine, then there is no need to keep it up and running all the time. Experiment with distributions until you find the one that you like best. If you've only tried Redhat and you're not happy with Linux, don't stop there! Try Debian, Mandrake, etc..

Point #3 for this section. Once you find the best distribution, why not install it on your main machine on a different partition? This will allow you to get familiar with it, and find out the real uses of Linux on a workstation machine.

Last point. If you've installed Linux on your main machine, you no longer need your test machine, right? Wrong. Now it's time to really learn about Linux. Install a crazy distribution like Slackware or build your own. On this machine, setup some servers, Apache, mail, etc.. Even if you don't plan on using them, it's good experience. Maybe even setup IP Chains, etc...

>3. Be willing to read!

Read alot. Talk to people. Join a Linux users group in your area. Read How-tos at the Linux Documentation Project. Join #linux on EFNet or Undernet, or practically any other IRC server for that matter.

>4. Understand that the Kernel is what gives you the hardware support, so read the hardware howto >at (http://www.linuxdoc.org)

More reading. As was mentioned however, DO NOT recompile the kernel as soon as you install Linux. You probably don't have to. (Most) everything should be available as modules. Take a look around the filetree for a bit, visit the distributions web site and read information, etc..

Have fun.

 

[Robor]

I gave Linux another ( tried a few years back) chance. After several (I'll not admit how many) wasted hours I am now ready to fully support PF. I installed Mandrake 8.0 without a hitch on one of my systems. My goal was to install the SETI command line client as a service (which is simple under NT/2000). That didn't happen. I spent several hours trying to get WINE working with the SETI client and in the end I only became more anti-Linux.

What's the problem? Too many releases/versions, not enough documentation or incomplete documentation, and most of all, no standardization (I'm shocked). Disagree? Go ahead and drop me a link on how to setup the CL SETI@Home client, with SETILog under Mandrake 8.0. I looked and I couldn't find one. Bill Gates will be happy to know that he will have another box back later today.

Rob

 

[cirrus1]

When I about 2 years ago started messing around with linux, I had problems getting a lot of my hardware to work because of drivers etc. One of my biggest triumphs back then was when I got my CL 5228 video card to function in X

Today with newer distros like MDK 8.0 and so setup is just SO easy, IMHO better than Win32's. Also drivers are alot better and found all of my current hardware

Now I just need to work on getting that old Open GL support back in X

 

[Doomer]

&quot;User friendly Linux&quot; is the ultimate oxymoron.

I'll never understand just why it's so damn hard to figure out. Is it an MS conspiricy or what ?

 

[vss1980]

Funniest experience with Linux:

After installing Mandrake 7.0 on P3-600 and TNT2
1st boot after set-up phase starts, as soon as hard-drive is accessed (ie. time it takes for Windows to load command.com into memory) computer starts outputting 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 ...... to the screen.

This is not a joke.