Our battery tech BLOWS. When is the next breakthrough?

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lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,654
7,886
126
I'm pretty happy with battery tech. The cells are tiny, rarely leak, and can keep fairly high consumption electronics going for days. It's a small miracle they work as well as they do.
 

Turin39789

Lifer
Nov 21, 2000
12,219
8
81
Look at EVERY mobile devices we use:

Smartphones, iPod, flashlight, fleshlight, cameras, laptops, netbooks, e-readers, PSP/DS, emergency defibrillators, everything!

We are still using the same battery technology from decades ago. We are still restricted and bound by the same problem that's been plaguing us since day 1.

When will the next break through come? I saw a vid about remote/wireless charging.... what happened to that?

No way to tell. It seems like I've read about promising battery technology using nanotechnology, but I dunno.

It could be next year or it could be 10 years from now. Hopefully we find something, though, because our battery technology does indeed suck.

If it bothers you so much, what are you doing to advance battery tech?
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
2,001
126
I used to get a couple hours tops out of regular batteries in the Walkman days. Now my mp3 player gets 24 hours plus on built-in rechargeable lithium. So while it's not moving ahead by leaps and bounds it's at least progressing.
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
13,897
1
0
Yeah, if it were easy to make a better battery somebody would have and would be making millions off it.

This is one of the "If I don't understand it that means it must be easy" threads. Just because the OP doesn't understand the limitations of battery technology or how hard it is to come up with a new technology he assumes that it's just something that somebody can pull out of their hat.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
I used to get a couple hours tops out of regular batteries in the Walkman days. Now my mp3 player gets 24 hours plus on built-in rechargeable lithium. So while it's not moving ahead by leaps and bounds it's at least progressing.

How much of that increase is from the miniaturization and efficiency increases of the MP3 player's components vs the Walkman's?

What advanced more? The battery, or everything else?
 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,422
8
81
I think battery tech has made pretty decent steps. I mean a battery now could probably keep a cell phone from the late 90's charged for days or weeks at a time.

We are creating electronics that just eat up more and more power, yet we are able to continually some up with ways to keep them charged for a day. The screens they are making these days are really tough on the batteries.

I have one of those Acer laptops that advertise 8hr battery life(in reality I get about 6). But most laptops I have owned start at about 2 hrs and go down gradually.
You most certainly have it backwards.

As technology advances, it uses less power, not more. This advancement is way, way faster than battery technology advancement.

a 1100mAh battery from today would run the phone just as long as a 1100mAh battery from the 90s. The newer battery might be slightly smaller and lighter, but not significantly so. The difference is that a phone from the 90s probably uses at least twice as much power as the newer phone. So the battery would only last half as long..
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,278
126
106
You most certainly have it backwards.

As technology advances, it uses less power, not more. This advancement is way, way faster than battery technology advancement.

a 1100mAh battery from today would run the phone just as long as a 1100mAh battery from the 90s. The newer battery might be slightly smaller and lighter, but not significantly so. The difference is that a phone from the 90s probably uses at least twice as much power as the newer phone. So the battery would only last half as long..
Just what I was going to say. Our devices use less power than those of yesterday. They would use even less power if they didn't have all the features stacked into them.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
2,001
126
How much of that increase is from the miniaturization and efficiency increases of the MP3 player's components vs the Walkman's?

What advanced more? The battery, or everything else?

While the electronics have gotten more efficient the batteries are being asked to do more. In the Walkman days they were not powering graphics displays. There are still plenty of older battery operated devices and there are many modern rechargeable batteries that will fit them. Pretty simple to do a test and see what's really happened. Wait, never mind, thousands of people have already done said tests. And on high drain devices like cameras and mp3 players when tested head-to-head in the same gadgets the modern rechargeable batteries often last 5 to 10 times longer than the disposables. Want to chalk that up to the efficiency of the components?
 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,422
8
81
While the electronics have gotten more efficient the batteries are being asked to do more. In the Walkman days they were not powering graphics displays. There are still plenty of older battery operated devices and there are many modern rechargeable batteries that will fit them. Pretty simple to do a test and see what's really happened. Wait, never mind, thousands of people have already done said tests. And on high drain devices like cameras and mp3 players when tested head-to-head in the same gadgets the modern rechargeable batteries often last 5 to 10 times longer than the disposables. Want to chalk that up to the efficiency of the components?

Hmm.. I don't think you quite get it.

"Being asked to do more" as in tasks does not matter. It's the overall energy draw. If you realized how much energy an electric motor draws, you would understand how eliminating that aspect of a music player would dramatically extend battery life.

The batteries in modern MP3 players are much smaller than the capacity of two AA batteries....

Anyway, don't underestimate how much power the miniaturization of components can save. Comparing an MP3 player to a walkman isn't really fair. But I'm sure you could find evidence of this in the evolution of both products. I bet the first walkman draws at least 2x the power any newer one does. Likewise, I would be willing to bet the first MP3 player also draws twice as much power as any current ones.

If the first Walkman drew 500mA, the last generation would only be drawing 250mA.(Can you still get walkmans? lol)

If the first MP3 player drew 100mA, current ones are only drawing 50mA.

Of course, "twice as much" may be an under or overstatement, depending. I imagine it being a lot easier to half the walkman power consumption than it would be to half the MP3 player consumption. But maybe not.. just giving ideas.

Edit: I guess I glossed over the latter part of your post.

NiMH, LiIon and especially NiCd rechargable batteries have been around for a long time. Yes, capacities have increased. But the basic technology is more or less the same, and it will plateau far, far below something that would be considered usable for anything but portable electronics. We're lucky that we've developed the technology to do so much with so little power. A world that evolved around quickly advancing battery technology and not necessarily electronics would be a very different world indeed.
 
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Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,278
126
106
While the electronics have gotten more efficient the batteries are being asked to do more. In the Walkman days they were not powering graphics displays. There are still plenty of older battery operated devices and there are many modern rechargeable batteries that will fit them. Pretty simple to do a test and see what's really happened. Wait, never mind, thousands of people have already done said tests. And on high drain devices like cameras and mp3 players when tested head-to-head in the same gadgets the modern rechargeable batteries often last 5 to 10 times longer than the disposables. Want to chalk that up to the efficiency of the components?

nicad and nimh technologies have advanced. however, they still don't hold a candle to Li-ion batteries, which have been around for quite some time now.

I personally don't like the use of Li-ion batteries. Li is a rare metal that we need to find an alternative for.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
2,001
126
Hmm.. I don't think you quite get it.

"Being asked to do more" as in tasks does not matter. It's the overall energy draw. If you realized how much energy an electric motor draws, you would understand how eliminating that aspect of a music player would dramatically extend battery life.

The batteries in modern MP3 players are much smaller than the capacity of two AA batteries....

Anyway, don't underestimate how much power the miniaturization of components can save. Comparing an MP3 player to a walkman isn't really fair. But I'm sure you could find evidence of this in the evolution of both products. I bet the first walkman draws at least 2x the power any newer one does. Likewise, I would be willing to bet the first MP3 player also draws twice as much power as any current ones.

If the first Walkman drew 500mA, the last generation would only be drawing 250mA.(Can you still get walkmans? lol)

If the first MP3 player drew 100mA, current ones are only drawing 50mA.

Of course, "twice as much" may be an under or overstatement, depending. I imagine it being a lot easier to half the walkman power consumption than it would be to half the MP3 player consumption. But maybe not.. just giving ideas.

And I KNOW that you're not getting it. You can find electronic devices like cameras that work on ordinary AA disposable and also on AA rechargeable. It's the EXACT same device drawing the EXACT same amount of power no matter which power source is used. Head-to-head, tested in the same device under identical conditions the AA rechargeable will last 5-10 times longer than the same size AA disposable. What part of that is so tough to get? The new rechargeable batteries last significantly longer than disposable IN THE SAME DEVICE. Electric motor draw has nothing to do with anything.
 

OUCaptain

Golden Member
Nov 21, 2007
1,522
0
0
Wow. How old is the OP? Batteries have been on a steady pace if increasing energy density since day one. You think we should have the equivalent of a nuclear reactor in a AA by now. Your entire argument is like saying "with all out technology, where's my flying car dammit?"

because our battery technology does indeed suck.

LOL. You obviously haven't been on this earth long enough to remember batteries of the past. Show me a (consumer available) battery from ten years ago that could fit in the palm of your hand and put out over 100 amps at 11.1 volts. Typical "we should have more this day in age" bullshit.

Edit: the steady incline doesn't just apply to energy density, but also, longevity (remember the memory effect), recharge rates, and (inversely) cost.
 
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bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
3,875
3
81
Show me a (consumer available) battery from ten years ago that could fit in the palm of your hand and put out over 100 amps at 11.1 volts.

Nicads, not a problem at all. How long can they do it for, though, and how hot do they get...

 

OUCaptain

Golden Member
Nov 21, 2007
1,522
0
0
Nicads, not a problem at all. How long can they do it for, though, and how hot do they get...


I guess I should have included the disclaimer "within normal operating parameters". I must have forgotten where I was.

Edit: and for hundreds of cycles
 

OUCaptain

Golden Member
Nov 21, 2007
1,522
0
0
http://www.a123systems.com/

Nuff said.

P.S.: This is not a troll post. The link is to a company that is developing an advanced Li ion battery technology.

A123's are the bees knees. I was pretty close to converting my helicopters to A123's until a few companies developed LiPoly cells that could be discharged below 3 volts without killing the pack. I hated having to fly with a stopwatch.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,272
103
106
Not just batteries for hand held or mobile devices, but just power storage in general has lagged significantly behind other technology. If you think about it, our power producing plants all have to be able to support peak power at all time because there still isn't an efficient way to store generated power for use at a later time. Sure, you can do it, but it's relatively expensive and cumbersome. Power generation would be A LOT cheaper if you could capture the power generated during off times (like middle of the night) and use it during peak usage time.
 

Sureshot324

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2003
3,370
0
71
I think it's time we forget about batteries and all get mini nuclear reactors in our cell phones.
 

Yeem

Member
Apr 19, 2010
178
0
0
Not just batteries for hand held or mobile devices, but just power storage in general has lagged significantly behind other technology. If you think about it, our power producing plants all have to be able to support peak power at all time because there still isn't an efficient way to store generated power for use at a later time. Sure, you can do it, but it's relatively expensive and cumbersome. Power generation would be A LOT cheaper if you could capture the power generated during off times (like middle of the night) and use it during peak usage time.

There are many ways of storing energy on a large scale.
-Compressed air, stored underground.
-Pumped-storage hydropower.
-Flywheel storage.

Mechanical > chemical for large scale energy storage at this point in time I'd say.

This is ripped straight from the July issue of National Geographic.

(I'm hoping for pocket sized cold fusion in my lifetime though. I want my flying car dammit!)
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,278
126
106
There are many ways of storing energy on a large scale.
-Compressed air, stored underground.
-Pumped-storage hydropower.
-Flywheel storage.

Mechanical > chemical for large scale energy storage at this point in time I'd say.

This is ripped straight from the July issue of National Geographic.

(I'm hoping for pocket sized cold fusion in my lifetime though. I want my flying car dammit!)

Cold fusion is a pipe dream. Kind of like a perpetual motion machine.

Mechanical energy can store large amounts of energy, but its energy density is usually pretty low compared to some chemical power methods (IE, burning gas).
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
I used to get a couple hours tops out of regular batteries in the Walkman days. Now my mp3 player gets 24 hours plus on built-in rechargeable lithium. So while it's not moving ahead by leaps and bounds it's at least progressing.

yup, long enough that i've never gotten past half way empty, charging takes no time at all either.
 
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