Our generation's lack of work ethic and money skills.

[Torn Mind]

Yep, other taxes just like everyone else pays (unless you're rich). Funny how only conservatives cry about it.

Sales taxes are regressive in nature(lower income earners carry the burden more). Thus, to say "everyone else" pays and shut down an objection to that particlar tax leads to the implication that the lower income tiers must pony up 13% of the purchase price to the Canadian government(Red Squirrel is a Canuck).

State and Local Sales Tax Rates, Midyear 2023

Compare the latest 2023 sales tax rates as of July 1st. Sales tax rate differentials can induce consumers to shop across borders or buy products online.

taxfoundation.org

Indeed, there is very little pattern between red or blues when it comes to U.S state sales tax. California takes a lot, but so does Louisiana.

This indicates to me that you hold a moralistic view of paying taxes. Well, that's foolish. Taxes are a business transaction. An compelled exchange of payment for goods and services to a legal entity.

 

[brianmanahan]

Have you ever been to a low tax shithole? Low taxes have consequences, mostly felt by the poor and middle class.

i was thinking about buying a house in a township known for its very low property taxes and no local municipal or school income taxes

but then they got so low on money, it sounded like they are going to have to cancel their fire and EMT service because they couldn't afford it

so i'm glad i dodged that bullet

 

[Pohemi]

This indicates to me that you hold a moralistic view of paying taxes. Well, that's foolish. Taxes are a business transaction. An compelled exchange of payment for goods and services to a legal entity.

If I hold a moralistic view of paying taxes, it's the fact that many/most people whining about high taxes and gov overspending want to destroy programs meant to help the lowest people in our society. They have no interest in reducing spending in other bloated programs like defense. Fuck those lazy poors, amirite?

So sure, I guess it has at least something to do with morals, but I simply call it caring about others outside of yourself. You know, the good of the community instead of a FYGM attitude and screaming at the gov to stop taking your money.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Sometimes cuts are necessary. There are too many inefficient programs that are redundant, cost a lot of overhead to manage, and most of them basically accomplish the same general idea: giving money or offering some sort of financial aid. So instead of giving money, just stop taking so much of it in first place. Everyone wins.

To help the poor the government should be focusing on policies that create more private sector jobs instead of handouts, while also doing everything possible to reduce costs of living. This would help everyone not only the few that qualify. That's the trick with liberal programs, you hear about them on TV and they sound good, but very few actually qualify for them. There's always a huge list of things you need to actually qualify and even if you do, it's a can of worms in order to even take advantage of it.

We need cuts. Let's start with cutting the number of liberal seats in 2025.

 

[sdifox]

Love how tha man that owes his entire existence to tax transfers is bitching about taxes.

 

[IronWing]

Sometimes cuts are necessary. There are too many inefficient programs that are redundant, cost a lot of overhead to manage, and most of them basically accomplish the same general idea: giving money or offering some sort of financial aid. So instead of giving money, just stop taking so much of it in first place. Everyone wins.

To help the poor the government should be focusing on policies that create more private sector jobs instead of handouts, while also doing everything possible to reduce costs of living. This would help everyone not only the few that qualify. That's the trick with liberal programs, you hear about them on TV and they sound good, but very few actually qualify for them. There's always a huge list of things you need to actually qualify and even if you do, it's a can of worms in order to even take advantage of it.

We need cuts. Let's start with cutting the number of liberal seats in 2025.

Reaganomics has a forty year proven track record of utter failure to accomplish anything but the further enrichment of the already rich at the expense of everyone else. I just thought you should know.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Reaganomics has a forty year proven track record of utter failure to accomplish anything but the further enrichment of the already rich at the expense of everyone else. I just thought you should know.

That's basically what's happening now. The middle class is basically being destroyed under the current policies.

 

[Torn Mind]

If I hold a moralistic view of paying taxes, it's the fact that many/most people whining about high taxes and gov overspending want to destroy programs meant to help the lowest people in our society. They have no interest in reducing spending in other bloated programs like defense. Fuck those lazy poors, amirite?

So sure, I guess it has at least something to do with morals, but I simply call it caring about others outside of yourself. You know, the good of the community instead of a FYGM attitude and screaming at the gov to stop taking your money.

One may not be opposed to programs themselves but have a much colder attitude towards the functioning of government actually providing the goods or services. That's where I fall. It's not a direct payment. There is no human interaction. It's just the business of ponying up some to the state for them to do "their thing", which provides some things to public but take plenty of money just for their own benefits. The false assumption of government benevolence winds up with voters so blindly passionate about increasing taxes that they don't look to see if the government is really utilizing the the dollars well.

Taxes are not a personal transaction. It the payment to an all-powerful and unaccountable entity by obligation. Then it becomes entity's money to use and spend at its discretion, and this where the problems lie. Usually, the government will follow obligation up to the bare minimum, and if there are procedural exploits to save a dime, they will utilize these exploits. I've seen it.
Government is all powerful because people follow its laws, it doesn't follow the sentiment of a few individuals). It is mostly unaccountable because there is no general countermeasure against corruption or misconduct.

One example of an exploit is Social Security, they ARE shaving single dollars from every check if presented an opportunity. I submit a request to go direct deposit for my mother into a bank account. Boom, they take a dollar off. It's well known SS is facing an insolvency issue, so it is a reasonable inference that they're screwing over people of single dollars to save for future payments.
I was dismissed for saying a mere 50 cents is valuable. Well, uncle Sam certain values mere single dollars. And no lawyer will bother with an underpayment of $1. Oh, you could say the recipient is being petty over $1, but then why is Uncle Sam, who rakes in much more money, even more petty over $1? Well, a few million $1 transactions is a few million dollars saved.
'
Taxes are not a direct payment. It is transfer to a third party who may or may not use it well and beyond oversight of the populace.

Part of defense spending is "welfare". Education(GI Bill, Tuition Assistance, certs) and health insurance. Tricare might very well be a testing ground for health insurance on a segment of the population, just like the dual Medicare Advantage programs. The issue I am concerned with military-wise is that high or low, the servicemember doesn't benefit. Meaning even with higher defense spending, they don't really allocate much to the servicemembers themselves. And they'll find ways to deny disabilities, treat the enlisted with the "bare minimum" or negligent healthcare. All from the "benevolent government".

 

[Torn Mind]

That's basically what's happening now. The middle class is basically being destroyed under the current policies.

Just what are the policies? You're a canuck speaking to Americans. The legal environments are not the same.

 

[IronWing]

That's basically what's happening now. The middle class is basically being destroyed under the current policies.

That's the point. Current economic and tax policies are mostly Reaganomics. We need actual liberal policies to recover the middle class and raise the poor.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Sales taxes are regressive in nature(lower income earners carry the burden more). Thus, to say "everyone else" pays and shut down an objection to that particlar tax leads to the implication that the lower income tiers must pony up 13% of the purchase price to the Canadian government(Red Squirrel is a Canuck).

State and Local Sales Tax Rates, Midyear 2023

Compare the latest 2023 sales tax rates as of July 1st. Sales tax rate differentials can induce consumers to shop across borders or buy products online.

taxfoundation.org

Indeed, there is very little pattern between red or blues when it comes to U.S state sales tax. California takes a lot, but so does Louisiana.

This indicates to me that you hold a moralistic view of paying taxes. Well, that's foolish. Taxes are a business transaction. An compelled exchange of payment for goods and services to a legal entity.

So what I'm hearing is instead of sales tax we should be levying higher income taxes on the rich (including megacorps)?

 

[Red Squirrel]

That's the point. Current economic and tax policies are mostly Reaganomics. We need actual liberal policies to recover the middle class and raise the poor.

Liberal policies are clearly not working considering food bank usage is at a record high, and all the economic and social issues going on under the Trudeau regime. As much as I didn't like Harper, we had it much better under him.

Again, we need LESS taxes. That would help everyone.

As a start, at least need to scrap the carbon tax, that affects the cost of everything - on top of all the existing taxes. But really they need to also scrap sales tax on essentials like utility bills. At minimum these are two things that need to happen.

I'm ok with taxing the rich more, but it should be the ACTUAL rich. The big wig CEOs raking in millions and such. Right now those are the ones that pay less taxes than rest of us and that needs to change. There should also be an incentive to spend money if you have more than NN amount, instead of hoarding it. At least if it is being spent it's going into the economy.

 

[snoopy7548]

But it is. Think about all the taxes you pay in your day to day life from income earned to income spent.

Looking at my last pay stub I paid 22k in income tax alone in 2023 out of 89k. That's not counting other deductions that may as well be taxes, such as EI and CPP, which is money involuntarily taken by the government. But for sake of this I won't even count it. But they come up to 1k and 3.7k respectively if curious.

So income tax, looking at $1,800 per month. Now add property tax and water/sewer free, which is just under $500/mo. So now I'm already at $2,300/mo alone going to the government.

But I'm not done. Any time I have to buy something I now have to pay 13%. I don't have an actual number per year because I don't track it but if I go by my YTD net income with the assumption that all my money eventually gets spent in some way, that's $7k in sales tax per year. So let's add that per month, and just to be generous round down to $500.

So now I'm already at $2,800 per month in taxes.

Now for bills, mortgage is $800/mo (I pay more so it's paid off faster but 800 is minimum), hydro is under $200, gas is almost $200, insurance is about $200, gas for truck around $200, internet around $60, cell around $30. might be missing a few things... Groceries around $400 maybe then let's just add like $200 for misc expenses. This is just rough estimates without me going through my bank statement, but looking at like maybe $2,000 per month in non tax expenses.

And don't forget all of those have 13% sales tax too (which I already accounted for) so if I wanted to be accurate I should probably deduct 13% from that but lets keep it at 2k since I probably missed some stuff anyway.

So taxes: $2,800
Other expenses: $2,000

So maybe not quite 75% of income going to taxes but it's still more than half, and these are only very rough quickly done calculations.

There are lot of taxes I did not account for like carbon taxes etc, which actually in itself, is taxed also via sales tax. There's also alcohol tax, gas tax (on top of carbon tax) and other misc taxes on specific items. I think there's even a special tax on tampons, but being a guy I am not exactly affected by that... (but they will be available in mens washrooms as per government mandate soon!)

Also can't forget of all the indirect taxes we pay. For example the natural gas price doubled a few years ago. That is partially because the natural gas company has to pay more carbon tax so they pass that cost to us.

Big companies have to pay massive land taxes for their buildings too, so guess what they have to make their prices higher. Similar idea as to why food in theme parks costs so much because the theme park gets a cut. Well government is basically doing the same in society. Taking a cut out of everything and everyone.

The government needs to stop handing out money to random select groups, but instead just lower the taxes across the board. That would do a lot to give relief to everyone. But never going to happen.

If you're making $89k/year, that's $7,417/month. $2,800/month in taxes is 37% of your total income. Your expenses have nothing to do with it.

Gross income = $7,417/month
Income tax = $1,800/month
Other deductions = $392/month (Note: you should be counting your CPP as savings, $308/month)
Net income = $5,225/month
Property tax = $500/month
Other tax = $500/month (Note: being generous here... you typically don't count sales tax as a separate item - it's part of your everyday expenses)
Total income after all taxes/deductions: $4,225/month
Total expenses: $2,000/month

You've got $2,225/month left over. That's pretty dang good. What additional relief are you looking to get?

 

[brianmanahan]

this thread is a trip down memory lane.

i only took half of OP's advice - i work really hard, but spend almost none of the money.

i've quit all hobbies except ones that have a real expected return. i work a side hustle to supplement my main job.

my net worth is over 10x what it was when this post was made, but it doesn't feel like i'm any better off than i was then.

i wonder if things have worked out better for OP than they have for me.

@JMapleton please update us.

 

[Red Squirrel]

If you're making $89k/year, that's $7,417/month. $2,800/month in taxes is 37% of your total income. Your expenses have nothing to do with it.

Gross income = $7,417/month
Income tax = $1,800/month
Other deductions = $392/month (Note: you should be counting your CPP as savings, $308/month)
Net income = $5,225/month
Property tax = $500/month
Other tax = $500/month (Note: being generous here... you typically don't count sales tax as a separate item - it's part of your everyday expenses)
Total income after all taxes/deductions: $4,225/month
Total expenses: $2,000/month

You've got $2,225/month left over. That's pretty dang good. What additional relief are you looking to get?

There is no where near 2k left over. There's tons of other deductions that I did not go over, this was just a rough calculation to show that a big chunk of the money we earn we lose to taxes. 37% is still too much. Anyone who thinks this is ok is clearly suffering from stockholm syndrome and enjoys working for free as a slave to the government for a couple months a year. That's basically what it is. My actual pay cheques add up to around $4,000/mo the rest is all taken off before, a big chunk of that being taxes. Then I have to pay taxes again any time I pay for anything. A lot of those deductions I will also be taxed on at some point later on, such as ESP, retirement fund, etc.

We need a smaller government that is more efficient and asks less of us.

They are asking more than we can give. (that's what Trudeau said to the veterans)

 

[IronWing]

“Lose to taxes” is an odd way of describing paying for healthcare, schools, roads, fire protection, the courts, and all the other trappings of civilization.

 

[Red Squirrel]

The issue is a big chunk of that is mismanaged while all the things it SHOULD be going towards are crumbling.

Plenty of examples here: https://search.brave.com/search?q=how+the+canadian+government+mismanaged+money&source=web

For how much we pay, we don't really get much value out of it.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

I'd like to see the FED/IRS index tax rates based on COL to adjust the burden more evenly.

$100K in Cleveland, Cedar Rapids, or Birmingham is not $100K in SF Bay Area or NYC.

We index wages for affordable housing and other social programs, but can't seem to do it for the FED/IRS.

A lot of folks are whiny on taxes as they are seen as 10%'ers who most definitely can not afford a home while being burdened with high taxes.

It's a huge disconnect.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

Inflation in housing/rent has been huge. Lack of housing is being built, lack of affordable housing being built is even worse.

NIMBY's, zoning restrictions, lack of open space, Govt bureaucracy with environmental studies and permitting that can take years are all to blame.

Oh, and we just imported 10-million new illegal immigrant heads in the last 3yrs that will continue this upward push in housing prices as supply does not meet demand.

Affordable housing is our #1 issue in America.

I know many a life-long renter who has given up on home ownership and says that $500/month I could save for a down payment will get me nowhere. Might as well blow it on a car, vacation, eating out and enjoying my life as I'll never afford a home.

 

[brianmanahan]

I know many a life-long renter who has given up on home ownership and says that $500/month I could save for a down payment will get me nowhere. Might as well blow it on a car, vacation, eating out and enjoying my life as I'll never afford a home.

i used to dream about getting a nice house

but i realized a cheap small 150-200$k house is way better and cheaper in the long run

less utilities, less maintenance, less insurance, less upkeep, less dusting and sweeping, less space to fill up with junk

 

[Exterous]

Oh, and we just imported 10-million new illegal immigrant heads in the last 3yrs that will continue this upward push in housing prices as supply does not meet demand.

Well good thing the Republicans just agreed to that sweeping border control bill that included aid to Ukraine....

Realistically I'm not sure how much of a country wide impact that is going to be for housing, esp in comparison to the other items you mention (zoning restrictions, NIMBYism). First I couldn't find anything that says we have 10M more illegal immigrants living here. The only thing I could find that I think is related is this news article "Illegal border crossers total over 10 million since Biden inauguration" However, and its a pretty big however, the CBP apprehended 8.4M of them. According to that story an estimated 1.7M* have managed to stay here since 2021. I don't think illegal immigrants are likely to each be an individual renter or home owner so lets divide that by 4 (which I think is overly generous) and compare to the total number of households (130M). That gives us a 0.3% increase in needed housing capacity. I'm sure the pressure is heavily concentrated but thats going to pale in comparison to the other housing issues we have country wide

*might seem like a big number until you compare it with the US population and # of births a year. Each year there are 3.6M US citizens born so a years illegal immigration equates to 0.5% of the US population

 

[Charmonium]

Two words - office space. Commercial office real estate prices have plummeted - from Q3 of 2021. The obvious reason is that working from home actually . . . works.

The problem is that refurbing an office bldg for live in tenants isn't a simple matter by any stretch. It will take billions in new investment and right now, I'm not sure the liquidity for such things is out there.

As the fed starts cutting rates, that should help accelerate matters but the consensus for when that might start seems to be June at the earliest.

 

[Red Squirrel]

They could sell off office buildings in chunks "as is", each chunk is basically like a condo, you own that space to do what you want with. Would require some work to subdivide it properly though and make sure that each unit has it's own electrical panel, water cut off, etc.

Could be a fun project to buy a chunk of an office building and convert it to living space. I personally wouldn't want to live in a building I don't actually own fully though but I could see the appeal for people that actually already live like that.

 

[iRONic]

Have you ever been to a low tax shithole? Low taxes have consequences, mostly felt by the poor and middle class.

This is not how the simple minded & uneducated think nor will it ever be.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

Well good thing the Republicans just agreed to that sweeping border control bill that included aid to Ukraine....

Realistically I'm not sure how much of a country wide impact that is going to be for housing, esp in comparison to the other items you mention (zoning restrictions, NIMBYism). First I couldn't find anything that says we have 10M more illegal immigrants living here. The only thing I could find that I think is related is this news article "Illegal border crossers total over 10 million since Biden inauguration" However, and its a pretty big however, the CBP apprehended 8.4M of them. According to that story an estimated 1.7M* have managed to stay here since 2021. I don't think illegal immigrants are likely to each be an individual renter or home owner so lets divide that by 4 (which I think is overly generous) and compare to the total number of households (130M). That gives us a 0.3% increase in needed housing capacity. I'm sure the pressure is heavily concentrated but thats going to pale in comparison to the other housing issues we have country wide

*might seem like a big number until you compare it with the US population and # of births a year. Each year there are 3.6M US citizens born so a years illegal immigration equates to 0.5% of the US population

Everyone is too blame - And Biden could have kept the Trump Exec Order in Place including Remain in Mexico and continued to build the wall which after years of being stopped he restarted with gusto and is using Exec Power to avoid environmental stops.

The current Immigration bill is trash - everyone knows the R's would never agree to it, it was just posturing to make them look bad.

Apprehensions - you mean catch & release inside the border. They are not apprehended & deported. They are given a date to appear that could be 3, 5, or 10 yrs away.

Here is the 10M figure - yes it was extrapolated to get that figure because there is no true count.

Housing shortage is bad and only getting worse. We are currently experiencing a housing shortage of between 5.5 million and 6.8 million units