Out of respect for the Jewish people that died during World War II

[OverVolt]

Correct. Typical internet hyperbole.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Can we just agree to do this out of respect for reality? Nazis were jingoistic xenophobic rightwing fascists, clearly nothing like any US political party.

 

[allisolm]

In front of Auschwitz there's a plaque that says about a million people died in the camps, a number that includes Jews, communists, gypsies, and other groups.

6 million number is mainly bandied about by the media and groups trying to benefit economically from selling the Holocaust, mostly a number that came into public awareness from Hollywood, which isn't exactly a source of factual news.

That plaque talks just about the number of people who died at the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex. Another 2 to 2 1/2 million died at the rest of the annihilation camps. And there were close to 20 additional camps. And the number of jews killed in the Soviet Union by Nazis is between 2 and 2.5 million.

So, no, the 6 million number is not Hollywood generated.

And the Auschwitz plaque says 1.5 million.

 

[Whiskey16]

That plaque talks just about the number of people who died at the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex.

Thank you, allisolm, you beat many of us to that necessary correction.

 

[flexy]

Diminishing the significance of the Holocaust and the genocidal atrocities committed by Nazi Germany by making comments suggesting an alignment of any modern democratic government with the Nazis should not be allowed on this forum (or anywhere, for that matter).

For your information: Me, the thread-starter of the NAZI<->US thread am German. Brought up and raised with probably more education of what the NAZIs did and how it come to it in school, parents etc. than many other folks.

If you even remotely suggest that my comparison would "diminish the Holocaust" you would be entirely wrong. How you even come up with this is beyond me.

Despite the (for me somewhat surprising) rejection of a lot of people on the forum of my comparison...I STILL stand by what I said, that I see very strong similarity between what is going on in the US right now and what was going on in Germany w/ the NAZIs.

MIND YOU: This is not about the exact definition of NAZIsm...my post is about the sentiment and mindset of the people....on a more basic level..which ultimately helped NAZISm rise.

* Not being educated
* Racism
* Looking for scapegoats who allegedly take jobs or allegedly are the reason for all sorts of problems.
* Singling out certain folks based on things like religion, race, heritage, political view to deny them rights
* Claiming that only people with one particular view are "legit" while others are not real Americans
* Creating new labels for folks with the intention to deny them right. "Anchor babies" etc.

And I DO see those things in the US.

Again: It is not about me claiming there is an alignment of the US Gvt with the NAZIs...but about the mindset and sentiments of the common folks and politicians...where I say that the NAZI mindset is very similar to the mindset of many of today's conservatives.

 

[flexy]

>>
xenophobic rightwing fascists, clearly nothing like any US political party.
>>

If someone willingly lies and claims Jose from Tijuana is the reason for the loss of jobs....and people are coming up with terms like "Anchor Babies" ... looking for ways to deny people rights they had for ages... you do NOT see this as sorta "rightwing fascist"? I do.

 

[Texashiker]

Diminishing the significance of the Holocaust and the genocidal atrocities committed by Nazi Germany by making comments suggesting an alignment of any modern democratic government with the Nazis should not be allowed on this forum (or anywhere, for that matter).

Why should jews get special treatment over other ethic groups?

 

[MongGrel]

I don't know where this topic started from...

but...

the Nazi party was a hate group from the very beginning and gained power through brutal force of violence. They were radicalized enough that Hitler was jailed for years on charges of treason against Germany.

I don't think we need to avoid Nazi comparisons out of respect for Jews, or indeed anyone, who were victims of the atrocities of the holocaust. I think we should avoid Nazi comparisons because they are virtually always absurd hyperbole and only serve to shut down any rational discussion about a topic. But I'm not in favor of outright banning such statements; that's something Hitler would do...

:sneaky:

Let us remember the Jewish Holocaust with the same thought as the attempted extermination of the North American Indian (twenty million) the South American Indian (fifty million) Belgian Congo natives (fifteen million?) the Austrialian native people (3/4 of the original population)estimates vary , etc. And remember the Jews were just the largest minority in the camps.

All of the above.

I'm not going to go on a rant, but some people should read some old Hemingway associated with the Spanish Civil War perhaps, the Nazi party were prepping for a war even then.

It wasn't just Jewish people at the time.

 

[OutHouse]

out of respect for the jews we shouldn't talk about ancient egypt either.

Win

 

[MongGrel]

Win

Hardly.

It's a context thing in general really when you start comparing modern era to Nazi in general casually.

Jewish really has little to do with it in general, there were many others where persecuted, even many Germans who weren't Jewish.

 

[1sikbITCH]

Ben Carson says they have should been pack'in heat to avoid the Holocaust.

They should have all rushed Hitler at once.

 

[flexy]

Hardly.

It's a context thing in general really when you start comparing modern era to Nazi in general casually.

Jewish really has little to do with it in general, there were many others where persecuted, even many Germans who weren't Jewish.

Spot on.

The disabled, "Gypsies", people "adverse to work", homosexuals, "degenerates", artists who created "degenerated art", basically very broadly who didn't confirm to the German/Arian "ideal" and/or anybody who was seen as "unworthy" or "non legitimate" or non-confirming, and this labeling is/can actually be entirely subjective. And this labeling of "whoever" certainly didn't start with the NAZIs and it certainly also didn't end with them.

"Lazy people, unwilling to work, leeching off the system" <-- ring a bell?

The idea that certain people are the only people working hard while the rest are non-entitled nuisances merely leeching off the system, un-justified.

All this can start very subtle, in people's minds. This is the point I am making. From there, the step to actions, which can be anything from denying rights, imprisonment, deportation or actually killing people is really not big. It's THE SAME mindset - with the only difference how it is acted on.

 

[Omar F1]

In front of Auschwitz there's a plaque that says about a million people died in the camps, a number that includes Jews, communists, gypsies, and other groups.

6 million number is mainly bandied about by the media and groups trying to benefit economically from selling the Holocaust, mostly a number that came into public awareness from Hollywood, which isn't exactly a source of factual news.

One month ago I finished reading a historical book about Jerusalem, obviously the author didn't seem to resist bringing the 6-million subject. Reading a novel lately that has nothing to do with WWII neither the Jews, and that figure was mentioned. Today while reading some refuge news over a German website, and guess what was brought up.....

Repeating that number in every possible way doesn't necessarily mean it's a right static coming from the war victors or those who might have benefitted afterward.

 

[Spungo]

In front of Auschwitz there's a plaque that says about a million people died in the camps, a number that includes Jews, communists, gypsies, and other groups.

6 million number is mainly bandied about by the media and groups trying to benefit economically from selling the Holocaust, mostly a number that came into public awareness from Hollywood, which isn't exactly a source of factual news.

No. Most of the inflated numbers came from the Soviets.

I believe the Soviets were responsible for a lot of the deaths attributed to the Nazis, but that might be my own person bias. My family was lucky enough to escape the Soviet Union in the early 1930's when Stalin was starving millions of people to death. That was peace time. There was no reason for that. It was just for the joy of killing people.

Killing tons of people then lying about it is something Stalin did all the time. We know for a fact the Soviets were responsible for massacring people in eastern Poland then blaming it on the Nazis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

roughly 320,000 Polish citizens were deported to the Soviet Union (this figure is questioned by some other historians, who hold to older estimates of about 700,000–1,000,000).[15][16]

When asked, the Soviets would always lie about how many people were being killed. They would insist they released Polish prisoners, but those people would never be seen again.

Here's another thing to consider. Stalin's famous order 227: not one step back. It was an official government order that you are to fight to the last man and never surrender. The Soviet Union officially had 0 captured soldiers. If you were captured by the Germans, it meant you were a traitor. As the Soviets were advancing toward Berlin, they were finding camps filled with people captured by the Nazis. Some would be Jews, some would be captured Polish soldiers, some would be Russian soldiers. Rather than freeing these people, the Soviets would kill them or send them to force labor camps within the Soviet Union. It wouldn't be the least bit out of character for the Soviets to then blame those murders on the Nazis. They did that several times before, and we have proof of them doing it.

This is one of the things that really bothers me about people questioning the holocaust. They'll show all this evidence that it's impossible for gas chambers to be used on the scale described by the Soviets, and then they conclude the holocaust didn't really happen. Well then why are these people missing? Where did they go? They didn't just vanish. They died and we need to explain how or why. They were shipped to the Soviet Union. They were killed by Stalin. Mass murder didn't stop at the Polish border. Almost all of the Nazi death camps were located in eastern Europe, and the Soviets never allowed them to be investigated. We just had to believe Stalin when he said he wasn't the one murdering people; they were already murdered when he got there.

 

[MongGrel]

No. Most of the inflated numbers came from the Soviets.

I believe the Soviets were responsible for a lot of the deaths attributed to the Nazis, but that might be my own person bias. My family was lucky enough to escape the Soviet Union in the early 1930's when Stalin was starving millions of people to death. That was peace time. There was no reason for that. It was just for the joy of killing people.

Killing tons of people then lying about it is something Stalin did all the time. We know for a fact the Soviets were responsible for massacring people in eastern Poland then blaming it on the Nazis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

When asked, the Soviets would always lie about how many people were being killed. They would insist they released Polish prisoners, but those people would never be seen again.

Here's another thing to consider. Stalin's famous order 227: not one step back. It was an official government order that you are to fight to the last man and never surrender. The Soviet Union officially had 0 captured soldiers. If you were captured by the Germans, it meant you were a traitor. As the Soviets were advancing toward Berlin, they were finding camps filled with people captured by the Nazis. Some would be Jews, some would be captured Polish soldiers, some would be Russian soldiers. Rather than freeing these people, the Soviets would kill them or send them to force labor camps within the Soviet Union. It wouldn't be the least bit out of character for the Soviets to then blame those murders on the Nazis. They did that several times before, and we have proof of them doing it.

This is one of the things that really bothers me about people questioning the holocaust. They'll show all this evidence that it's impossible for gas chambers to be used on the scale described by the Soviets, and then they conclude the holocaust didn't really happen. Well then why are these people missing? Where did they go? They didn't just vanish. They died and we need to explain how or why. They were shipped to the Soviet Union. They were killed by Stalin. Mass murder didn't stop at the Polish border. Almost all of the Nazi death camps were located in eastern Europe, and the Soviets never allowed them to be investigated. We just had to believe Stalin when he said he wasn't the one murdering people; they were already murdered when he got there.

I'm not sure Stalin didn't kill many more people overall in the purges than the Nazis, to be honest.

He probably did.

One of the reasons Patton wanted to go after Russia at the end of WWII.

 

[Spungo]

* Not being educated informed
* Looking for scapegoats who allegedly take jobs or allegedly are the reason for all sorts of problems.

This is the Nazi party in a nutshell. It's also holocaust deniers in a nutshell.

As someone who really digs into the details of WW1, I'm always amazed by the stuff people say about WW1. I watched that series The Greatest Story Never Told that largely defends the Nazis and implicitly blames Jews, and one thing really stood out was when a guy said the Germans were winning WW1 and "suddenly" they unconditionally surrendered. That couldn't be more wrong. Germany was being starved to death since the very beginning. They were surrounded on all sides, and Britain had all sea trade routes blocked. The Germans were digging up water pipes to make bullets. They were melting down church bells to make bullets. People were starving, and the country was on the brink of revolution. The Kaiser had to step down and flee the country. By the time Americans were pouring into Europe, German soldiers had lost the desire to fight. Thousands of Germans would surrender to a handful of Americans. By the end, there was absolutely zero chance of Germany winning WW1.

The problem is that the German people were never told this. People always heard about victory after victory and how well the war is going. From the perspective of the German people, it seemed like they unconditionally surrendered at a time when they were winning the war. Believing that you are winning the war is not the same as actually winning the war.
To make matters of perception worse, allied soldiers never advanced into Germany during the war. The German people didn't understand how it was possible to lose the war when the enemy troops haven't even made it into Germany yet. It felt like this was some kind of conspiracy. There must be someone or some group within the government who would surrender even when Germany is winning the war. This is how the Nazi party started. Blame was placed on Jews.

I'm a bit worried that Russia might have feelings like this. The Soviets always lied about how awesome everything was. Then "suddenly" the Soviet Union collapsed. I'm guessing a lot of people were pointing fingers when that happened. Blame it on Jews, blame it on Americans, blame it on the CIA. They'll blame everyone except the people responsible.

 

[Zaap]

In front of Auschwitz there's a plaque that says about a million people died in the camps, a number that includes Jews, communists, gypsies, and other groups.

6 million number is mainly bandied about by the media and groups trying to benefit economically from selling the Holocaust, mostly a number that came into public awareness from Hollywood, which isn't exactly a source of factual news.

Wow. Really?

You realize there were over 70 concentration/death/forced labor camps all over europe, Auschwitz being just ONE of them, right?

Add to that, roughly 15,000 death and labor camps outside of that. Tens of thousands were simply worked to death at work sites- including building the camps themselves- and others were starved and killed inside the ghettos, never even reaching any camps.

That people think any of this was "Hollywood" fiction is just sad.

 

[cubby1223]

I'm not sure Stalin didn't kill many more people overall in the purges than the Nazis, to be honest.

He probably did.

One of the reasons Patton wanted to go after Russia at the end of WWII.

Up in the Baltic states, like Lithuania & Latvia, when the Germans conquered the territories, they were welcomed and celebrated by the local populations, that's how bad the Soviets were. But, I mean, they soon realized the Germans were just as bad and the celebrations quickly ended...

There was little good about the Soviets. The only positive they had going for them was they had two enemy nations worse than them. One interesting detail I learned recently, nearing the end of the war, Germany tried to make deals with the British, offering to not kill Jewish people, offering to trade trainloads of Jewish people in exchange for war materials for use against Russia.

 

[Victorian Gray]

One month ago I finished reading a historical book about Jerusalem, obviously the author didn't seem to resist bringing the 6-million subject. Reading a novel lately that has nothing to do with WWII neither the Jews, and that figure was mentioned. Today while reading some refuge news over a German website, and guess what was brought up.....

Repeating that number in every possible way doesn't necessarily mean it's a right static coming from the war victors or those who might have benefitted afterward.

The Nazis kept good records. What's your beef? Why does it matter if it was 6 million or 5 million or 7 million? That fact remains, the Nazis were doing genocide and the proof exists and is known.

 

[brycejones]

In front of Auschwitz there's a plaque that says about a million people died in the camps, a number that includes Jews, communists, gypsies, and other groups.

6 million number is mainly bandied about by the media and groups trying to benefit economically from selling the Holocaust, mostly a number that came into public awareness from Hollywood, which isn't exactly a source of factual news.

Others have already corrected you. I will just say put down the crack pipe.

 

[Omar F1]

The Nazis kept good records. What's your beef? Why does it matter if it was 6 million or 5 million or 7 million? That fact remains, the Nazis were doing genocide and the proof exists and is known.

No, it doesn't matter at all. 5, 7, or even 20-million (I've heard that one too), lets try to force the world to suck it up and accept it as a fact, while actively relaying that information by every possible mean or event.

How could you possibly create a precise account in the aftermath of WWII about the Jews causalities inside the Nazi concentration camps. One thing to keep in mind, starvation was a real disaster to the entire German nation, in which the concentration camps was only part of it.
And that figure was concluded by whom? the same victorious groups that were accused of war crimes against the Germans and the Japanese in the first place? the same groups who are actively destroying some Syrian towns based on the false justification of the questionable IS presence, or otherwise has strongly sought after to convince the world of their official conclusion about 9/11 attacks.


Ok, here is a real deal though: Please try and find out from Paul Wolfowitz or either Douglas Feith or even their American partners why in hell they have had actively sought to invade and screw-up Iraq over a blatant lies and later successfully created such a failed state, whether intentionally or not, that have triggered some few other events as a consequence in this region.
Give me a sound - no bs - reasoning, and I assure you I'm a believer for their alleged estimate.

Otherwise, their politicians can claim whatever they want and some of us wouldn't believe it, plain and simple. However, seeking to legally charge and prosecute those who question their story isn't something to be proud of, with all due respect to the Jews in general.


May the God have mercy over all the innocent souls that were lost in the WWII tragedy.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Thank you, sm625 and Pipeline1010.

I'll carry on your themes of honest perspective...but apologise for being far more blunt:Asinine stupidity on your part, cbrunny.

For starters the lessons and dangers from precedents in history involving Germany of that time are not simply the horrors of genocide.

Modern international law, state relations, and civil morality can often be defined as the contrast from before and after WWII.

That period was a stark changing point into modern times of communication, media, along with military speed and reach. Particularly as a result of the Axis war, global civilisation's contact and laws made massive strides into contemporary maturity. As such, examples from that benchmark period can be raised as stark lessons for what ills to recognise and avoid.

Numerous other pogroms, propaganda, and political extremes can and MUST not be ignored and swiped from discussion just because some have a phobia of Nazis.

cbrunny, a truly dumb position that you raised is countered with the fact that being a democracy does not negate a state's ability to commit acts of immorality and crime.

More to the point, how dare you be so hypocritical in denying the academic and intellectual freedom to recognise and relate some acts of today to notable precedents from the past? Is your ego so fragile?

Plenty of democracies have committed horrors and plenty have certainly applied varying degrees of aggressive territorial expansion, racism, supremacist bigotry, divisive propaganda, etc... Some even to an extreme combination of all of the above, all for statist and political gain.

Without incitement to crimes, generalised hatred, or calls to violence, cbrunny, your blanket call for the banishment of ANY relation to Germany is dumb. 'Dumb,' a simple and applicable label, kind of like recognising those on the fringe....

If such a comparison is made and hopefully explained, Godwin himself been explicit on this -- his law is never meant to delete comparisons to Germany, only to discredit the simpletons who lack the ability to rationalise and explain when they simply rail out, 'you Nazi...'

This is the P&N, and I'm assuming this thread has been made as a response to the loony US presidential race. If dumb is presented, then recognise it as such or ignore and move on.

Don't take it the asinine extreme and mis-representation of Godwin's Law that ANY relation to Nazi Germany nullifies the points and ends discourse. Grow up.

I'm Jewish and if an associated ill fits, then damn right, go ahead with integrity and perspective to properly compare a contemporary extreme to notorious but relatively founding German modern world precedents.

cbrunny is flat out wrong, as correctly recognising contemporary ills for what they may be honours the memory of those killed by Nazi hands.

Absoluteness can be a sign of infantile deraignment. Grow up, woolfe.

Woolfe, you raised Israel? How about Netanyahu's active choice to demonise Muslims Israeli's in the last election? What comparable political playbook could be applied? Goebbels? cbrunny, BAN ME! Well, damn supremacist and aggressive states who enact the early 20th century German imperial (yes, later enthusiastically re-embraced by Hitler) pogrom of lebensraum...:

...cbrunny, out of infantile vulnerability to critique, you also wish to ban recognition of history....If one recognises the immorality of extremes in history and is so hurt by their recollection, then damn well don't associate with their re-enactment in contemporary crimes.

So, cbrunny, in the end this Nazi-phobic topic of yours is a massive fail. An example of utter tripe and anti-intellectualism by yourself and some others who so irrationally latch on in excessive protection of what they may hold dear for EVER possibly being critiqued against what must be forever recognised and a never to be forgotten benchmark in history.

 

[Whiskey16]

Diminishing the significance of the Holocaust and the genocidal atrocities committed by Nazi Germany by making comments suggesting an alignment of any modern democratic government with the Nazis should not be allowed on this forum (or anywhere, for that matter).

I guess we can all assume that cbrunny made a post and run?

Discussion?

cbrunny, you where's your integrity to return and acknowledge the responses?

 

[Whiskey16]

Clearly a cbrunny post and run...

Diminishing the significance of the Holocaust and the genocidal atrocities committed by Nazi Germany by making comments suggesting an alignment of any modern democratic government with the Nazis should not be allowed on this forum (or anywhere, for that matter).

Yet cbrunny, on your scale, where do you then place the neo-Nazi conspiracy sharing and Hitler apologist, Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu?

Netanyahu under fire for suggesting &#8217;40s Palestinian leader convinced Nazis to exterminate European Jews

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sparked an uproar in Israel on Wednesday for suggesting that a Second World War-era Palestinian leader convinced the Nazis to adopt their Final Solution to exterminate European Jews.

Holocaust experts slammed Netanyahu&#8217;s comments as historically inaccurate and serving the interests of Holocaust deniers by lessening the responsibility of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Critics also said the statement amounts to incitement against modern-day Palestinians in the midst of a wave of violent unrest and Israeli-Palestinian tensions.

..

Netanyahu said al-Husseini played a &#8220;central role in fomenting the final solution&#8221; by trying to convince Hitler to destroy the Jews during a 1941 meeting in Berlin.

&#8220;Hitler didn&#8217;t want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jews,&#8221; Netanyahu told the group. &#8220;And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, &#8216;If you expel them, they&#8217;ll all come here.&#8217; &#8216;So what should I do with them?&#8217; he asked. He said, &#8216;Burn them.'&#8221;

..

Moshe Zimmermann, a prominent Holocaust and anti-Semitism researcher at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, said Netanyahu made a &#8220;far-reaching argument&#8221; for political purposes that didn&#8217;t hold water. He said the comments essentially made Netanyahu a Holocaust denier.

&#8220;Any attempt to deflect the burden from Hitler to others is a form of Holocaust denial,&#8221; he told The Associated Press.

 

[Double Trouble]

Out of respect for the victims of the Holocaust, let's suspend freedom of speech? How about no?

This. 100x this.

The answer to stupid speech or ideas is never to censor them. It is to counter them with more free speech, showing how the ideas are bad and so forth. Censoring speech is not a good idea, no matter how offensive the speech might be.