Over clocking effects on the long term

[ArielBiMBa]

Hi all,
right now i'm at the stage before buying a new computer and i cannot make up my mind and cooshe between 2 diffrenet computer specification that i've been offered in the limits if my budget.
So here is the deal:
The store that i'm buying from offeres an OC free with keeping the part's warranty when buying a new computer.
so,with help,i've assembled two different specificationsne for OC and one without OC.
i wanted to know what are the effects on the long term of OC let's say of an E4400 2.0@2.8.
How will it effect on the processor's life span(do you he will last at least 3 years with that OC?) in comparison to AMD 5000+ without an OC and how will the extra heat generated by the OC effect the other components in the case?
The 2 specification are:

The specification that will be OCed:
Intel Core 2 Duo E4400 2.0Ghz Conroe OEM E4400T
Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L Conroe Support GP35DS3L
NZXT Apollo No PSU Black
Sunbeam Tuniq Tower 120mm
Compucase HEC 400ART 24PINS
Glacialtech 120mm Case Fan Entering Bearing 18dba 36CFM
Transcend 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2-667 CL5
WD 250GB SATA II 16MB WD2500KS
Sparkle 8800GT G92 512MB DDR3 DualDVI Retail

the specification that will not be OCed:
Athlon 64Bit AM2 5000 DualCore Box AM250DCB
Gigabyte MA69G-S3 AM2 GMA69GS3
NZXT Apollo No PSU Black
Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 Pro
Enermax liberty 400w
Glacialtech 120mm Case Fan Entering Bearing 18dba 36CFM
Transcend 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2-667 CL5
WD 250GB SATA II 16MB WD2500KS
Sparkle 8800GT G92 512MB DDR3 DualDVI Retail

what would you choose?

thanks a lot to all the helpers!

 

[BlueAcolyte]

I don't think those specs will strain your computer a lot. I also see that you have a tuniq tower, which is one of the best air coolers. It should be fine, I have heard of people OC'ing higher than that on stock cooling.

 

[4x4expy]

A mild overclock should have no effect on processor life. Heavily overvolting the CPU can shorten the life, but you should be able to get 2.8 out of the E4400 or E4500 pretty easily on or near stock Vcore. BTW the E4xxx cpus are Allendale cores, not Conroe. The Allendales, have a lower FSB, therefore higher multiplier range, so they scale very well when overclocking. Basically either of these setups should last as long as you need.

 

[Pyrokinetic]

Umm...DDR2-667??? Are these builders for real? DDR2-800 should not even have to be asked for as a bare minimum on both setups.

While I like AMD, the Core 2 Duo is the better setup; what are they planning to overclock it to? That E4400 should easily OC to 3.0Ghz or so on that board. Make them get you better memory; at least DDR2 800 -- no extra cost either. If they don't, you will be cheated and they will be laughing at you as you walk out the door.

The AMD 690G chipset is an integrated graphics setup board to begin with (which usually do not overclock that well) so no wonder they will not attempt to OC the Gigabyte board.

As and end note, do yourself a favor and learn to build your own rigs. You will save yourself some green and end up with a better system. Then you will learn what components are good and be able to critique such setups as the ones you are inquiring about.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I don't see the problem with DDR2-667 RAM on those configs, perhaps you would care to enlighten me? There's no advantage to running RAM faster than FSB speeds.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
I don't see the problem with DDR2-667 RAM on those configs, perhaps you would care to enlighten me? There's no advantage to running RAM faster than FSB speeds.

Totally agree with this post as far as real world goes. There is a slight advantage for the anal person that might come in here to pick this apart. Not worth it. If you are going to run 400FSB, then you will need it, but other than that you should be set for 667. Besides, most 667 ram will overclock to 800 levels with a slight voltage bump. Therefore, 667 is even fine for 400Mhz FSB in most cases.

 

[Denithor]

First off, welcome to the forums!

There's really no comparison here, even at stock speeds the 5000+ and e4400 are basically equal power (benchmark) as the AMD chip looks better in some games and the Intel chip wins in others. With even a moderate OC there is no question at all which is better.

However, here's a better question for you: why are they selling you the e4400 when the e4500 costs exactly the same (or cheaper in many places)?

Have you considered building this rig yourself instead? It's really not hard at all these days and can be a lot of fun. If you tell us your budget constraints we can probably recommend a build that would give you the same performance at lower cost or else provide much better performance at the same cost.

 

[Pyrokinetic]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
I don't see the problem with DDR2-667 RAM on those configs, perhaps you would care to enlighten me? There's no advantage to running RAM faster than FSB speeds.

Say what? You mean no advantage to running RAM faster than stock? Check out this link and then run that by me again...
http://www.anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=2878&p=5

And yes, it is a small improvement, but an advantage is still an advantage; however, would it not be more advantageous to overclock DDR2-800 to say DDR2-1000 than DDR2-667 to DDR2-800? Especially when DDR2-800 costs the same (if not less expensive) than DDR2-667? And the fact that both the motherboards have a native memory standard of DDR2-800, why would you run slower memory than the motherboard standard?

If you do not care about overclocking, getting the best bang for your buck, or coaxing the most from your system then by all means -- go with whatever those system builders happen to chuck inside. But then it begs the question why you would care what is inside in the first place if it fires up and works for you.

Just my thoughts, not trying to pick a flame war, but running DDR2-667 makes little sense to me.

 

[Blain]

Originally posted by: Pyrokinetic

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
I don't see the problem with DDR2-667 RAM on those configs, perhaps you would care to enlighten me? There's no advantage to running RAM faster than FSB speeds.

Say what? You mean no advantage to running RAM faster than stock? Check out this link and then run that by me again...
http://www.anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=2878&p=5

Just my thoughts, not trying to pick a flame war, but running DDR2-667 makes little sense to me.

He's totally wrong when he said... "There's no advantage to running RAM faster".
The link you provided based on gaming bencmarks using the old 975X chipset , clearly indicates that there is a none to slight to advantage between running memory at 667 or 800.

 

[Denithor]

There actually is virtually no difference to running fast ram versus just what is needed for the level of OC you want.

DDR2 400 > 1067+

You want to note the text above the charts:

Results for high-end memory were very close at tested speeds. Therefore, the scale range was reduced to better show the small differences in these memory benchmark results at each speed. Please keep this in mind when viewing the charts. A normal zero scale would make performance differences appear much smaller than these expanded scale charts. Values for the tested memories are included below each chart for reference.

Basically, a difference moving from DDR2-667 to DDR2-1067+ only nets about 5fps in older games that are memory dependent. Considering you are already over 100fps at this point, that is a non-existent gain.

And here is another thing to consider: most all DDR2-667 available today will easily run DDR2-800 (or higher) speeds with a slight bump in voltage (1.9-2.0) and looser timings. When overclocking the e2xxx/e4xxx chips, you aren't going to exceed 400 fsb in most cases so even running your ram at 2xfsb (DDR2-800) most DDR2-667 is perfectly capable of handling your overclocking needs.

 

[SerpentRoyal]

Quality Kingston N5 1.8V DDR2 667 can hit 400MHz with only 1.95Vdimm and 4-4-4-12-2T timing. That's more than adequate for any 9x multi Intel CPU. Folks should stop wasting $ on expensive RAMs and PSUs. You'll pay 3x the price for an additional 2% gain in performance!

So how do vendors entice noobs? Put on eye-catching heat spreaders and label RAMs as overclocking 2.0-2.2V. Some of these modules are actually 1.8V DDR2 667 RAMs with 2.2V DDR2 800 labels. These modules will not POST at JEDEC default 1.8V. The user must manually raise Vdimm to 2.2V to run at 400MHz speed.

In the case of PSU, many vendors like Seasonic and Corsair tune the fan rpm curve for lower noise at medium load and intake air temperature. Why? Because people associate a quiet PSU with a quality PSU. Antec went overboard with this approach on their SP line...cheap caps and low rpm = hot internal = dead PSU within a few months.

The Antec Trio and Earthwatts strike an acceptable balance between noise and cooling.

 

[rbk123]

And here is another thing to consider: most all DDR2-667 available today will easily run DDR2-800 (or higher) speeds with a slight bump in voltage (1.9-2.0) and looser timings. When overclocking the e2xxx/e4xxx chips, you aren't going to exceed 400 fsb in most cases so even running your ram at 2xfsb (DDR2-800) most DDR2-667 is perfectly capable of handling your overclocking needs.

No doubt this is true but if the cost is the same, why not request the 800 over the 667? If nothing else, you have the potential for higher overhead in your overclocking should you need it. Perhaps the PC you have today doesn't need it, but maybe when one cobbles something up tomorrow it would help.

All Pyro is saying is if price is equal, why not go with 800? You may not need it (ever), but it's better to have it and not need it. Not sure what's wrong with this logic, myself.

 

[SerpentRoyal]

Because the overclocking 2.2V DDR 800 may not POST with default 1.8V JEDEC setting in BIOS! There is NO POTENTIAL FOR HIGHER OVERCLOCK IF WE START OUT WITH THE SAME 1.8V DDR@ 667 RAM.

Quality 1.8V DDR2 800 will cost more than 1.8V DDR2 667 unless one can offset the higher cost with a rebate.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Anandtech

Actually the average difference between DDR2-667 and DDR2-800 is 1.3%, which isn't noticable and is within the errors of the benchmark, therefore statistically; they are the same.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
Because the overclocking 2.2V DDR 800 may not POST with default 1.8V JEDEC setting in BIOS! There is NO POTENTIAL FOR HIGHER OVERCLOCK IF WE START OUT WITH THE SAME 1.8V DDR@ 667 RAM.

Quality 1.8V DDR2 667 will cost more than 1.8V DDR2 800 unless one can offset the higher cost with a rebate.

DDR2-667 costs more than DDR2-800? Sure you don't have that backwards?

 

[Pyrokinetic]

Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
Because the overclocking 2.2V DDR 800 may not POST with default 1.8V JEDEC setting in BIOS! There is NO POTENTIAL FOR HIGHER OVERCLOCK IF WE START OUT WITH THE SAME 1.8V DDR@ 667 RAM.

Quality 1.8V DDR2 667 will cost more than 1.8V DDR2 800 unless one can offset the higher cost with a rebate.

A decent point, and an Achilles heel of the Intel P965 chipsets. I have run both types of DDR2-800 in my 590 SLI board -- 2.2V CAS4 Dominators & the current 1.8V CAS5 regular XMS sticks. The 1.8V sticks will not even POST when pushing 2.1V, but are happy with only 1.9V and OC the same as the Dominators -- go figure. So yes, buying the "performance" RAM is a waste of money in most cases, and I have the experience to prove it.

Being that we do not know whether the DDR2-667 sticks in ArielBiMBa's potential rigs are quality sticks or not (my hunch is that they are probably value-ram) I will still encourage my recommendation for DDR2-800 as that is the motherboard standard. ArielBiMBa is not likely to overclock after getting the system, so I feel it would be best to have RAM that has a default JEDEC setting of DDR2-800. Others here feel it will not matter and maybe that is so.

Will ArielBiMBa notice the difference between DDR2-667 and DDR2-800 in everyday usage? Probably not, and I probably would be hard pressed to notice either. However, I am an enthusiast who likes to push stuff with OCing (never had anything die on me yet from doing so -- knock on wood). I enjoy it and consider it fun.

 

[SerpentRoyal]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry

Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
Because the overclocking 2.2V DDR 800 may not POST with default 1.8V JEDEC setting in BIOS! There is NO POTENTIAL FOR HIGHER OVERCLOCK IF WE START OUT WITH THE SAME 1.8V DDR@ 667 RAM.

Quality 1.8V DDR2 667 will cost more than 1.8V DDR2 800 unless one can offset the higher cost with a rebate.

DDR2-667 costs more than DDR2-800? Sure you don't have that backwards?

Yes...brain fart.

 

[SerpentRoyal]

Originally posted by: Pyrokinetic

Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
Because the overclocking 2.2V DDR 800 may not POST with default 1.8V JEDEC setting in BIOS! There is NO POTENTIAL FOR HIGHER OVERCLOCK IF WE START OUT WITH THE SAME 1.8V DDR@ 667 RAM.

Quality 1.8V DDR2 667 will cost more than 1.8V DDR2 800 unless one can offset the higher cost with a rebate.

A decent point, and an Achilles heel of the Intel P965 chipsets. I have run both types of DDR2-800 in my 590 SLI board -- 2.2V CAS4 Dominators & the current 1.8V CAS5 regular XMS sticks. The 1.8V sticks will not even POST when pushing 2.1V, but are happy with only 1.9V and OC the same as the Dominators -- go figure. So yes, buying the "performance" RAM is a waste of money in most cases, and I have the experience to prove it.

Being that we do not know whether the DDR2-667 sticks in ArielBiMBa's potential rigs are quality sticks or not (my hunch is that they are probably value-ram) I will still encourage my recommendation for DDR2-800 as that is the motherboard standard. ArielBiMBa is not likely to overclock after getting the system, so I feel it would be best to have RAM that has a default JEDEC setting of DDR2-800. Others here feel it will not matter and maybe that is so.

Will ArielBiMBa notice the difference between DDR2-667 and DDR2-800 in everyday usage? Probably not, and I probably would be hard pressed to notice either. However, I am an enthusiast who likes to push stuff with OCing (never had anything die on me yet from doing so -- knock on wood). I enjoy it and consider it fun.

I also buy Kingston N5 1.8V DDR2 800 RAMs. These will overclock better than N5 1.8V DDR2 667 if I happen to come across a 7x CPU. Course if I need to save $20 on a build, then I would go with DDR2 667.

 

[Build it Myself]

Everyone seems to worry about the ram issues, but have you thought about a better power supply? That's pretty meager if you're thinking of getting a 8800GT and all the toys you're talking about...consider something closer to 500 IMO...I'd go with the Intel system personally, i've always run AMD until now and I don't think I'd go back unless they start getting their game together.

 

[rbk123]

Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
Because the overclocking 2.2V DDR 800 may not POST with default 1.8V JEDEC setting in BIOS! There is NO POTENTIAL FOR HIGHER OVERCLOCK IF WE START OUT WITH THE SAME 1.8V DDR@ 667 RAM.

This is the weakest argument I've heard yet. The box is going to be built by a builder - do you think that he's going to put in DDR-800, not have it boot up, and give it to him? And even if he were building it himself and it didn't boot, he would just do what everyone else would do and that is to stick some slower ram in there, up the voltage and pull it out. Could we blow this point any more out of proportion?

 

[The-Noid]

You forget the point that Serpent is on an agenda against Corsair and OCZ.

Everything he says is flamebait.

He is making claims against a specific IC that is Micron D9GMH/D9GKX/D9GCT. Now the great thing about this whole argument is his fabulous Kingston N9 Valueram is a relabled version of this same IC. Run 2.2v into them and you will have the same problems.

Serpent knows just enough to get by and try to make his point of hatred against certain companies for no real apparent reason to me.

In the end it brings down any kind of credible point he may make on other subjects.

 

[SerpentRoyal]

Originally posted by: rbk123

Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
Because the overclocking 2.2V DDR 800 may not POST with default 1.8V JEDEC setting in BIOS! There is NO POTENTIAL FOR HIGHER OVERCLOCK IF WE START OUT WITH THE SAME 1.8V DDR@ 667 RAM.

This is the weakest argument I've heard yet. The box is going to be built by a builder - do you think that he's going to put in DDR-800, not have it boot up, and give it to him? And even if he were building it himself and it didn't boot, he would just do what everyone else would do and that is to stick some slower ram in there, up the voltage and pull it out. Could we blow this point any more out of proportion?

FACT #1: Gigabyte uses default 2.0 to 2.1Vdimm with some boards to faciltate POSTING with these POS overclocking RAMs.

FACT #2: Many users had difficulty or cannot POST with these overclocking 2.0-2.2V RAMs. The solution was to boot with JEDEC 1.8V DDR2 667 or 800 RAM, then manually set Vdimm in BIOS to at least 2.1. Go to the Abit forum if you want to get smart.

FACT #3: Higher working voltage generates more heat and causes pre-mature death in IC devices. Given a Q6600 with 1.285 VID vs 1.325 VID, which one would you choose? I know it require a little intellect to get it right, but you have a 50/50 chance.

If the user must reset the BIOS, then the PC may not POST without access to 1.8V JEDEC RAMs. Why would anyone need to swap out RAMs when quality JEDEC 1.8V DDR2 800 will POST at defaut settings and overclock to at least 450MHz with 2.1Vdimm and 4-4-4-12-2T timing?

 

[SerpentRoyal]

Originally posted by: Yoxxy
You forget the point that Serpent is on an agenda against Corsair and OCZ.

Everything he says is flamebait.

He is making claims against a specific IC that is Micron D9GMH/D9GKX/D9GCT. Now the great thing about this whole argument is his fabulous Kingston N9 Valueram is a relabled version of this same IC. Run 2.2v into them and you will have the same problems.

Serpent knows just enough to get by and try to make his point of hatred against certain companies for no real apparent reason to me.

In the end it brings down any kind of credible point he may make on other subjects.

Have any proof that my Kingston N5 DDR2 800 are D9? I know for sure that these are not D9. Let's see some proof.

I know enough to earn a comfortable wage.

 

[rbk123]

Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
FACT #2: Many users had difficulty or cannot POST with these overclocking 2.0-2.2V RAMs. The solution was to boot with JEDEC 1.8V DDR2 667 or 800 RAM, then manually set Vdimm in BIOS to at least 2.1. Go to the Abit forum if you want to get smart.

FACT #3: Higher working voltage generates more heat and causes pre-mature death in IC devices. Given a Q6600 with 1.285 VID vs 1.325 VID, which one would you choose? I know it require a little intellect to get it right, but you have a 50/50 chance.

If the user must reset the BIOS, then the PC may not POST without access to 1.8V JEDEC RAMs. Why would anyone need to swap out RAMs when quality JEDEC 1.8V DDR2 800 will POST at defaut settings and overclock to at least 450MHz with 2.1Vdimm and 4-4-4-12-2T timing?

FACT #2 - my point exactly. Of the users that did have problems, they simply solved it as I described and now as you mimic'd. Let me give you FACT 2A: Many more users did NOT have difficulty and booted/built their systems just fine with DDR-800 ram. Perhaps you should read some non-Abit forums? A little causality there? Hmmm......

FACT #3 - I have no clue what you're point is here. This has nothing to do with the fact that if you can't boot, you can't overclock, which is the ridiculous-ness I was refuting. I still can't believe you even posted that as an argument, in all-caps no less.

So go ahead, throw a bunch of other crap up there, my point is to state if one can't boot one can't overclock has to be one of the single dumbest things I've read on this board, and that is saying alot. And in light of the fact the system would be built by a builder no less: "here you are sir, we hope you enjoy your new system. It has the DDR-800 ram you requested, but we couldn't boot it. Of course we didn't try any other 800 ram that would boot, nor did we boot with slower ram and then change the BIOS settings. No, we simply stopped right there because it's simply too unrealistic to expect us to figure out how to resolve the situation; it's just too complicated. Hope you enjoy your PC."

Unbelievable.

 

[jbzx86]

What I find funny is SerpentRoyals join date and amount of posts... to say you know enough to earn a comfortable wage? Do you get paid to post in these forums?