Overclocking on 754 platform... am I missing something?

[homestarmy]

Well it seems unfortunately that the top end for the FSB on my Asus K8N-E Deluxe board is about 236MHz, confirmed from an article. Coupled with my Sempron 3000's 9x multiplier, that puts me around 2.12 GHz.

I know that it can go much higher. The chip runs so ultra cool, around 30C with stock cooling.

But those two items are my limiter, the FSB and the multiplier. I am new to OC with this series, I did Socket A for a long time and am finally upgrading. I know with HT it is a little different, is there anything that I am missing? With these items as my limiting factors, is there anything else I can do to get a bit higher?

Or should I just give up on this motherboard and go another route? What is a strong 754 overclocking board that is not overly expensive and has the right stats to get my processor to 2.4 GHz (assuming the processor will take it)?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give!!

BTW, I read the stickies...

 

[homestarmy]

Also, on my board there are options for DDR and AGP Voltage. If I am not mistaken, the way this is set up, when the FSB is overclocked, it should not have any relation to the Memory or Video card, therefore there should be no reason to up those voltages unless I am overclocking that specific component, correct?

 

[homestarmy]

ttt

 

[furballi]

Just purchased a cheap combo from Fry's with the NF3 chipset. Running Kingston ValueRAM at 2.5-3-3-8-2T, 5:6 memory divider (221 MHz effective RAM speed), 265MHz FSB with CPU at 1.452 VDC. For unknown reason, this board will not run at 1T if I put a RAM module in the DIMM2 slot with 166MHz memory divider. The Super Pi time was 40.8 sec (38.8 sec with 1T timing).

If I bump the 3100 Sempron CPU Vcore to 1.502 VDC, then I can hit 271MHz FSB with 39.8 sec Super Pi (37.8 with 1T timing). This is the upper limit of my RAM at 5:6 memory divider. Bumping the FSB on this board does not affect the speed of the video card. However, the RAM speed will change as you adjust the FSB.

Note that this 3100 Sempron does not support Cool n Quiet. It has 256 cache with single channel memory. I'd say this combo is 5 to 15% slower than the more expensive 939 Athlon 64 platform (same clock speed).

http://shop3.outpost.com/product/4705559

 

[homestarmy]

It doesn't seem like my motherboard's BIOS has a divider for the System Memory. Is it possible that the System memory can run independantly from the FSB?

 

[Zap]

Yeah, system memory on socket 754 is linked to bus speeds by a multiplier - of which there are a few to choose from. You'll want to lower your memory multiplier a notch or two and lower your HT multiplier to 3x - then see how far you can go.

If you really want another board, there are a few good ones... do you need AGP or PCIe? What's your current vid card? What CPU core do you have?

 

[kmmatney]

Your ASUS board should have all the overclocking options you need - ASUS boards usually do.

Your motherboard may not have a "divider". For instance, mine just has a memory speed seprate from the bus, but no mention of a divider. What you need to do is lower your intial memory speed to 166 MHz and then start uping the FSB. Your memory speed will rise with the FSB speed, but will stay lower than before.

Make sure to up your cpu voltage a little.

FYI - Here are my settings:

Starting point:
FSB = 200 MHz
Memory speed = 133 Mhx (effective memory divider = 3/2 )
HTT Mult = 3 (600 Mhz HTT)

Overclocked:
FSB = 300 MHz (times 8 gives me 2.4 GHz)
Memory Speed = 200 MHz (back at it rated speed!)
HTT = 900 MHz


Your's is a little tricky, as its in-between normal settings. Set the NTT multiplier to 3. Then set your memory speed to 166 MHz, and then start raising the FSB you can get:

FSB 266
Memory 220.78
HTT 798

cpu speed = 2.394 Ghz

As long as your memory is OK at 220 MHz, this may work.

Your other option is to set the memory speed down to 133 MHz. Then you can possibly achieve:

FSB 280
Memory 186.2
HTT 840

CPU 2.520 GHz

Your memory speed is a little below normal, but this doesn't make too much difference with a Sempron. If you really push it, you can start the memory at 133 Mhz and get to:

FSB 289
Memory 192.185
HTT 867

cpu 2.601 GHz

 

[homestarmy]

In regard to the post directly above, maybe I need to try lowering my HTT ratio. I have read that my FSB tops out in the 230's, but maybe it is just that the 4 x 235 numbers are too high for the HTT? I'll have to bump it down to 3 and give it a shot.

Anyone have a good link on where I can read the effects of the Hyper Transport numbers? I know of course effects of FSB, memory timings, etc.

 

[homestarmy]

Originally posted by: Zap
Yeah, system memory on socket 754 is linked to bus speeds by a multiplier - of which there are a few to choose from. You'll want to lower your memory multiplier a notch or two and lower your HT multiplier to 3x - then see how far you can go.

If you really want another board, there are a few good ones... do you need AGP or PCIe? What's your current vid card? What CPU core do you have?

I did actually find the memory divider. The way it is put into the bios is IDIOTIC! It is not listed as 1:2, 1:1, 5:6, etc. Instead it has 200, 333, and 400. That's it!

So I put it down to 333 and with my FSB in the 230's it brings it back up to around 193 (actual clock, not DDR). I have found that this board is only stable with FSB up in the 230's, what a shame.

As far as another board, I would need AGP (though I might consider getting a PCI-E card, especially if it will help me with my graphics for OSX). I am using a Radeon 9550 (and have been meaning to trade it from my HTPC for my 9600XT). But I am not a gamer, so graphics performance is not really an issue. The CPU core is Palermo.

 

[Zap]

Consider a Biostar Tforce6100 board. It has integrated video that I've heard is capable of gaming and it overclocks well. Mine can take 300MHz HTT. I'm hoping to post a review of it on the Motherboards category sometime today or tomorrow. It also is upgradable with PCIe graphics.

 

[homestarmy]

Is that the max you can choose in the bios? Just curious...

There needs to be a database that shows what FSB these boards are stable to. I wish I knew this before I got my board. My board does have some pretty sweet features though... Gigabit LAN, all kinds of RAID etc...

 

[FDF12389]

This is all I could sqeeze out og my sempron 64 2800+

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c240/fdf12389/untitled.jpg

Edit, voltage is incorrect, its running at 1.5v

 

[Zap]

homestarmy, BIOS goes to 450MHz. I can POST at 330MHz and stable at 315MHz on a CPU that needs extra vcore to POST at 300MHz. Really nice results... getting ready to post my review... look for it in Motherboards.

 

[selfbuilt]

Have you tried raising the FSB now that you've found the memory divider?

I've been running my Asus K8N (no -E, no Deluxe) at 290 fsb for last year now. I know what you mean about that 236 fsb limit - I couldn't get it to go any higher either at first, so long as I was running sync with the memory. But using a divider I can go higher, although with one interesting side effect - I can only use a divider that keeps my memory below a 200 clock.

I know that sounds strange, but it's true. Also, different bioses have a considerable effect (e.g. some of them require you to set the AGP bus to 67 to engage the PCI/AGP lock, others do it automatically). I'm running bios 1004 with my oc'ed Newcastle 2800+ (8x290 = 2320) and "266" mem divider (giving 193 effective ram) on my corsairs 3200LL (2-3-2-6-1T). All with HTT=3, of course.

If you continue to be limited to 236fsb, even with the mem divider, I'd try rolling back to an earlier bios and experiment a bit further. Good luck!

 

[homestarmy]

Thanks for the info Zap and selfbuilt!! You both have great names BTW.

I lowered the HTT and also lowered my multiplier to 6x to make sure the CPU wasn't the bottleneck and it seemed to run pretty well at 250fsb. It was running prime95 last night. It should still be running now, but I didn't check this morning due to issues with my refrigerator .

Also, here is another really weird issue. When I up the voltage on the processor, in ASUS PC Probe, it seems to show up .1v lower. Like when I was doing 1.55 I was getting roughly 1.45. I don't remember the exact differences on other settings, but it was around .1v difference (always lower). Have any of you had issues with this?

And since you guys seem so to be experts , once I get this VCORE thing figured out, what is the highest voltage that my Palermo should be able to take, when set to 1.6v (in the bios, reporting less with ASUS PC Probe), at full load it was only getting up to like 43-44C. What temps are you guys getting?

And Zap, I really look forward to your review. If you remember, please link it here, because I may forget to search for it! All of the reviews out there have been pretty lackluster, one of them told me the board would not be stable past 247MHz, which is why I assumed that it wouldn't go any further.

 

[homestarmy]

Originally posted by: FDF12389
This is all I could sqeeze out og my sempron 64 2800+

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c240/fdf12389/untitled.jpg

Edit, voltage is incorrect, its running at 1.5v

WOW! You were expecting more than 2500? What have people been getting on these babies? And what types of temps are you getting at idle/load and with what cooling? I seem to remember an overclocking database that listed stuff like that back in the day. I'm going to go search for it now.

EDIT: here's one.

 

[homestarmy]

And a question from the link I posted.

It says:

Is the AGP/PCI-E bus locked? Some boards (nf3-150 and k8t800 mainly) have problems with the lock. If this lock isn't working, you will be overclocking the AGP bus and PCI devices, which will lead to instability around 240mhz, depending on the devices you use. For the k8t800pro, you might experience issues around 270mhz, as it seems the lock fails here. Also, some boards do not engage the PCI lock until the HTT/FSB is changed from stock speeds, and yet others like having the AGP/PCI speed bumped up 1mhz.

Do you guys know if this is necessary or an issue for my board?

And does lowering the HTT to 3 from 4 really not change performance?

 

[selfbuilt]

Happy to help out another Asus K8N user. A few suggestions:

HTT: definitely stick to HTT=3 if you are overclocking the fsb above 200Mhz. This board is known to have problems when hypertransport link >800Mhz (i.e. don't go above 200x4 if you can help it). Most boards can do up 1000Mhz without problem (hence why some others can leave it at 4 for while), but not this one. I find going down to HTT=2 is not helpful, and can be unstable depending on bios version. And no, running at 3 will not lower performance.

PCI/AGP lock: this varies with the bios version, but is automatically engaged in most cases. With some bioses, you need to set the AGP bus to 67Mhz (up from 66 default) in order to engage the lock. If you can now hit 250fsb stably, I'm sure you are fine. You can verify the lock is working using Nvidia's System Utility or Clockgen.

CPU voltage: The lowest my board goes is 1.525V (with 1004 bios). As you've noticed, this board seems to commonly undervolt - in my case, actual voltage as measured by PC Probe is typically ~0.05-0.06V lower than what is set. Go by your actual voltage, although realize that this will fluctuate (especially under heavy load). At my maximum oc (2.32Ghz) I need to run my Newcastle at 1.625V set (~1.575V actual). I would think your Palermo should run on less, but am not not up on current specs for those chips.

Temps: I would expect your temps to be lower than mine with your Palermo, but at ~1.575V actual, my 2.32Ghz Newcastle runs about 29-30C idle/42-43C full load (measured by PC Probe). But I also have the very nice Zalman CNPC7000B-Cu cooler (full copper), which keeps it cool.

Memory divider: just so you know, a lot of people have reported problems on this board with the 333 divider (especially on older bioses). The latest bios seems to have solved it for some, but not for me (could be a problem with my Corsairs as well).

Memory voltage: I find a slight bumb in Vdimm is good idea if running multiple sticks at tight timings (or high MHz). I typically tun 2.7V, but 2.6V is probably fine. There's certainly no need to increase the AGP voltage.

Have fun experimenting ... I've found this board to rock-solid stable up to 300Mhz, although I run it routinely at 290 to get the maximum cpu/memory performance trade off (i.e. 8x290=2.32Ghz CPU, 266 divider=193Mhz mem). My 2800+ Newcastle won't do above 2.34 Ghz stable, no matter how voltage I throw at it (of course, a >30% oc isn't too bad . A bit frustrating that my Corsairs won't do above 400DDR effective when using a divider (system won't post if I try) - not sure if it's the board or the mem.

 

[homestarmy]

Thank you so very much for such a detailed response!

Now what issues have people been running into when using the 333 divider exactly? I will go down to the 266 divider when I get home and see how high I can go!

Also, let's assume my chip does exactly what yours does. Three memory sticks only should run at 333 according to the manual... does this mean that I should make sure that they don't get over 166, or will that be ok with OC would you think? They all should be good for 200MHz (verified), if not a bit more.

 

[selfbuilt]

As I recall, the issues with the 333 divider were 1) the system wouldn't post above 236 fsb, and 2) the effective DDR not matching what it should have been, depending on CPU multiple at final clock speed. Not everyone reported this, but it was a fairly common problem for a lot of us (no matter which BIOS I've tried, none will let me use that divider above 236 MHz - system won't post).

In any case, you are correct that for 3 memory sticks the manual reports you should only be able to run at 166 (or 333DDR). That's irrespective of dividers - it's the actual final effective speed they are referring to.

There's really no way to know for sure what settings will work best for you without testing it - all depends on the specific chip/mobo/mem combination you are running. Experiment with all the possibilities (as detailed in the stickied guides) and see what happens.

:beer:

 

[homestarmy]

Thanks again.

One more question. You say that changing the HTT multiplier to 3x won't change performance, do you mean it won't change performance in comparison to a 4x multiplier with the same result, or that the lower result will not matter (or will matter insignificantly)? A guy here at work said that it only won't matter as long as the end result is the same.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: homestarmy
And Zap, I really look forward to your review. If you remember, please link it here, because I may forget to search for it! All of the reviews out there have been pretty lackluster, one of them told me the board would not be stable past 247MHz, which is why I assumed that it wouldn't go any further.

Here ya go!

Zap's mini review of Biostar Tforce6100

Note that it's the Tforce and not Geforce version. I've heard some conflicting reports about the differences between the two. Beyond color scheme, they both seem to have the same PCB layout and components from what I can see in the pictures, with the exception of the CPU power capacitors which are supposely higher quality on the Tforce board. Some people think the BIOSes are the same, some think they are different. I guess it'll take someone who owns both to tell us a definative answer. Hmmm, maybe I'll buy a Geforce version just to see for myself... gonna pop over to Newegg refurb... Even if the Geforce version doesn't OC as good (because of the capacitors?) if it has the undervolting capabilities I'd use it for my HTPC and replace my mobile Celeron. Really a shame these don't have TV-out...

BTW, whoever's only getting 247MHz out of their Tforce board either has a crappy CPU with high multiplier or doesn't know what to do in BIOS. Mine can POST at 330MHz HTT and run stable at 315MHz HTT. I had some fans leaning on the board (pic linked in my review) to assist and I was using crazy voltages with my CPU (1.65) but it worked!

Now go read my review and comment on it there!

 

[homestarmy]

zap - the 247 limit I was talking about was about my asus board, sorry for the confusion

selfbuilt - thanks again for all of the info! I finally am home and I have overclocked the baby up to 2430 so far!! It's currently running Prime95 to test.

My settings currently (likely can do more, hasn't crashed yet):

1.65v (but actually running at 1.52-1.536 via PC Probe)
HTT 3
FSB 270
Mem 266

It's up to 47C at full load right now on stock air cooling, without a case (on my desk), just checked. Sounds to me like its likely got some headroom... 2700 here I come!!

 

[FDF12389]

Originally posted by: homestarmy

Originally posted by: FDF12389
This is all I could sqeeze out og my sempron 64 2800+

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c240/fdf12389/untitled.jpg

Edit, voltage is incorrect, its running at 1.5v

WOW! You were expecting more than 2500? What have people been getting on these babies? And what types of temps are you getting at idle/load and with what cooling? I seem to remember an overclocking database that listed stuff like that back in the day. I'm going to go search for it now.

EDIT: here's one.

I wasnt expecting more than 2500, that was sarcasm, in fact I was expecting anything, I go into an overclock with an open mind and take what I can get.

31* C Idle
39-42* C load
Custom WC setup:
http://www.aquastealth.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=35
http://www.aquastealth.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=18
http://www.dangerdenstore.com/product.php?productid=31&cat=20&page=1
http://www.dangerdenstore.com/product.php?productid=3&cat=72&page=1
Also a GPU waterblock but I dont know which one it is, its unmarked.

I can get the CPU up to near 2700 but it wont pass Prime95, it will do 6hrs of Jam Heavy load though. These chips rock. This computer was intended to be used as a budget PC for school and a little gaming, but now it acts like a mid range gamer.

 

[homestarmy]

UPDATE!!!

2700 stable!!!

9 x 3 x 300 !!

My FSB tops out at 300... any BIOS out there that will let me go higher?

The great thing about this setting is that I can run the 2:3 divider and run the memory right at spec, so I cancelled my more expensive 2GB memory order and saved around $50-60 overall!

I realized that with changing my memory settings (just using a cheap 256 stick for testing) that I was able to do this at 1.675v and be stable in prime 95 for overnight, no errors.

My motherboard is very weird. Many different settings are giving me the exact same voltage. Anywhere from 1.65 down to either 1.55 or maybe it was 1.575 gives me the same voltage of 1.536. Then 1.675 gives me a true. I wonder why this is the case. This leads me to believe that I could get my FSB higher if it were possible with headroom, or I could do it at a lower voltage, such as 1.575.

My temps with stock AMD HS/F are 33C idle (currently 31C idle with a little cooler temps tonight) and as high as 52C full load Prime 95 for hours. The 52C seems kinda high, but I am used to those type of temps with Socket A at idle even (quiet HS/F). Also, it is not in a case as of yet. Being in a case may help or hurt, depending on my airflow, I am hoping that I can keep it the same, roughly, but expect a couple of degrees difference towards the higher.