Overwatch

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Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
game isn't for me

I simply don't care for the available game mode types

Out of curiosity, what would you like to see?

One of the criticisms that I see people mention is that the game modes are too much like TF2, so I wouldn't mind seeing if Blizzard comes up with any of their own unique modes.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
People probably want deathmatch lol. I'm happy with the modes and maps, the modes are nothing new but I think they're done well. I think the overtime implementation is fun and can get pretty intense, Capture Point 'intervals' are a nice touch and most of the maps aren't too heavy on chokepoints. I'm sure they'll expand it with CTF or King of the Hill or other well-known modes eventually.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
There's already a King of the Hill mode. That's what Nepal, Lijiang Tower and Ilios are.

Technically, yes, but I guess I think of that implementation as more of a single capture point conquest because victory is still simply based off of 'winning the point'.

I think a King of the Hill mode could add wrinkles to shift victory from being about "winning the point" to "occupying the point" by physically being on the point granting .2% victory per second or some such and no victory 'passively' accumulating. It would shift priorities somewhat so that being on the point is as important as clearing your enemies off it. Or you could do the same thing with capture being required first. It's not a huge difference between "winning the point" and "being on the point" but it changes strategy and the importance/role of certain characters in that setting.

If they do add more game modes it would be smart of them to present them more clearly. I can sort of see where some people are coming from in saying "I don't like the style" because a lot of it kind of all runs together. A few of my friends that played a lot and really enjoyed the game still were asking at the start of most rounds "Is this payload or capture point? Or both?" A clear label for it on the loading screen would help address that as well as I think just be psychologically beneficial for those who feel like it's all the same by defining gametypes.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
After falling asleep early last night, I did manage to get in a few games before the servers went down today. Apart from running into a really weird guy that kept making obnoxious noises and playfully hitting on other random dudes... (You know, the whole "pretend to be gay because it's funny" thing? ) it wasn't all too bad. (To note, you can just mute people in the 'p' menu.) I had this one game with Junkrat on defense at Watchpoint: Gibraltar, and it was a bit of fun. I ended up taking out a Soldier:76 in the server room (the room behind the first spawn-changing checkpoint), and a Tracer managed to pick off the rest of my health... and I got hers with my death bombs. :twisted:

...I then also proceeded to ignore Genji's Deflect twice and kill myself in close quarters after he got caught in my trap... which I placed in the same spot each time!

I think a King of the Hill mode could add wrinkles to shift victory from being about "winning the point" to "occupying the point" by physically being on the point granting .2% victory per second or some such and no victory 'passively' accumulating. It would shift priorities somewhat so that being on the point is as important as clearing your enemies off it. Or you could do the same thing with capture being required first. It's not a huge difference between "winning the point" and "being on the point" but it changes strategy and the importance/role of certain characters in that setting.

Ah, I don't disagree with you there. I've always found it kind of odd that the other game modes require proximity to advance your progress, but king of the hill does not after it's already captured. I've watched a few pro games, and it normally ends up in 99% vs 99% overtime battles. Usually, whichever team had the point would just try to push the enemy back toward their spawn rather than engage on the point.
 

JujuFish

Lifer
Feb 3, 2005
11,031
752
136
Out of curiosity, what would you like to see?

There was a mod for UT2004 called Jailbreak. Two teams. When you die, you get sent to jail. Deep in each team's base is a switch to free the jailed players. Jail the other team to win. I'd love to see that come back in a game.
 

Phanuel

Platinum Member
Apr 25, 2008
2,304
2
0
The problem with a lot of these classic modes is that there aren't enough players on a side to make them function well.

6v6 means once you lose 1-2 people any "team" fight from there on out is pretty well decided.
 

Cappuccino

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2013
4,027
726
126
The problem with a lot of these classic modes is that there aren't enough players on a side to make them function well.

6v6 means once you lose 1-2 people any "team" fight from there on out is pretty well decided.
Yea that is true. You can't really win a objective gametype with uneven players. Ofc sometimes you can but that is rare in my experience
The game modes reminds me of Halo 3
 

Zenoth

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2005
5,196
197
106

I can definitely see why. They've been advertising and promoting the game on a regular basis for months (alongside those nice CGI movies). And the fact that the Open Beta was and meant - of course - free access to the game certainly helped the cause. If the Beta had been opened only to people who had pre-ordered it then that number would have been significantly lower I'm sure.

It's good anyway that millions of players played it. It's going to be a gold mine data-wise for Blizzard to see what worked (and worked well), and what didn't. Which heroes were played the most, which were played the least, etc. It's going to reveal a lot of bugs and exploits to fix, lots of maps-related and overall balance-related stuff to adjust. So the players / preferred heroes / maps / balance / gameplay statistics coming out of that Open Beta's data will help Blizzard polish the game even more.

However, I don't expect the final (at launch) game to change that much compared to Open Beta, since obviously the devs can only do so much in just two weeks (amount of time between Open Beta's last day and the day of release). They'll probably just fix a couple of bugs here and there, squash a few map exploits, maybe adjust / (re)balance a few heroes and some of their abilities, but that's about it. I do, however, definitely expect the game to change a considerable amount within the coming months and by year's end. I'm easily picturing the creation of new animations, taunts, skins (and more general unlockables), game modes, maps and even new heroes; I don't think that the roster will stay fixed at 21 heroes forever, I'm predicting 25, maybe 30 in a year+ from now.

I've liked most of Blizzard games (in fact there's no Blizzard game that I actually "hate" per se), and even though I do have a few gripes with Overwatch (getting used to the game was the key for me, given the five days of the Open Beta was alright to adjust to it and it started to grow on me pretty quickly) I certainly like it a lot. I wish Blizzard the best with this new franchise.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
That's great and all but, man, why the hell does it take so long to slot a single person into a 5v6 game then? lol, I was fortunate enough to play with a group of 6 pretty often but after initially queueing successfully it seemed like once one of us left or if someone on the other team quit it took ages to fill that spot. We once got stuck in a skirmish as a premade 5 vs a premade 6 and they got tired of waiting, left and just tried again.
 

Zenoth

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2005
5,196
197
106
That's great and all but, man, why the hell does it take so long to slot a single person into a 5v6 game then? lol, I was fortunate enough to play with a group of 6 pretty often but after initially queueing successfully it seemed like once one of us left or if someone on the other team quit it took ages to fill that spot. We once got stuck in a skirmish as a premade 5 vs a premade 6 and they got tired of waiting, left and just tried again.

Good point.

I was surprised when I realized that A.I. wouldn't fill in the spot automatically until a player would join (well, from what I noticed I don't think there's such a system in place, unless I missed it, or never noticed it?). They should do that to alleviate the problem a bit (A.I. in Open Beta was kinda bad, unless pushed to Hard difficulty; then it becomes a bit exaggerated with Godlike aiming across the map regardless of the hero).
 

TidusZ

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2007
1,765
2
81
Overwatch is the best work blizzard has done in the past 5 years imo. I believe Jay Wilson was kept off the team and Jeff Kaplan is the lead
 

Cappuccino

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2013
4,027
726
126
Overwatch is the best work blizzard has done in the past 5 years imo. I believe Jay Wilson was kept off the team and Jeff Kaplan is the lead
Ofc they keeped Jay Wilson away otherwise the game would be pay to win.
 

Cappuccino

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2013
4,027
726
126
Just wondering where did you guys pre purchased the game? And how much? To people who purchased the game outside Blizz did the company you bought it of said you will get the key on the 23rd or 24th? Just curious.
 

s44

Diamond Member
Oct 13, 2006
9,427
16
81
Amazon has the Origins Edition at $48 for Prime members. The non-PC versions have had their delivery dates updated to 5/23, though, while PC is still 5/24. Hope this gets straightened out in case Blizzard opens servers a day earlier than expected (B&M sellers here are releasing 5/23, so it's possible).
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
Played the game throughout beta. Couldn't stand all the hackers on there. Artificial Advantage was selling thousands of licenses for their aimbot and they were not the only ones.

It was really bad how much hacking was going on in that game. What sucks is if you don't notice the matchmaking just rolls over with the same people game after game, it feels like you are constantly in matches with hackers. Still, chances seemed to be that if you left a match with a hacker to join another random match, that one would have a hacker in it as well.

Pretty much the reason I don't play FPS games like this. The hacking is rampant in all popular fps games from CoD, BF, TF, and whatever else.

For those that don't think the hacking was bad, I had written up this post to make on the official forums, but Blizzard locked down the forums before I could complete the post. So I'll post it here in it's original entirety.

Sick of the defenders of aimbots in these forum threads. Either purposefully being obtuse, disassembling, or just genuinely ignorant seems to be what many defenders of cheaters are.

So here is a breakdown 101 of how to spot an aimbotter with videos.

First off, what is an aimbot for those that don't know. An aimbot is a hacking program that is a 3rd party program that runs in conjunction with a game to give the player in an FPS to auto track and lock on for shots. There are various degrees of sophistication of aimbots and other hacks that may be provided by a cheat program.

So why do aimbots exist? People like to win, to troll, or both. Doesn't matter. There has always been a large group of players willing to cheat their way to the top since the invention of FPS games. In fact in almost all competitive activities with a prize at the end you'll encounter cheaters. This goes for real life as well as games. Examples are Lance Armstrong with biking, or most professional soccer players with flopping, or Brady with deflated footballs and stolen practice footage. People cheat and they always have and always will.

Because there is a ready made crowd of people willing to cheat, there is now a demand for a product. There are many entrepreneurial developers out there willing to make cheats for people willing to pay. I am not going to point out the places to find such companies on the internet that make such programs, but they aren't exactly hard to find. Being hard to find wouldn't be a good business model.

I know many reading this right now that are good people are feeling particular outrage and possible injustice of it all. Might be asking, "Why doesn't Blizzard stop these companies from making cheats? Isn't there some law against them doing this?"

The answer is basically no. Blizzard has no authority to stop another company from making a legitimate software product just like another company can't stop Blizzard from making their products. Also, cheating isn't illegal. Frowned upon, but not illegal. Soccer floppers don't get sent to jail. Tom Brady is still pitching balls and not rocks (although humorously some might debate that point). the only authority that runs a given competition can do is basically kick out the cheaters. This means Blizzard can ban people that cheat. Just like the NFL commission could ban cheating players and that's about it.

So who are these cheaters in games? There can't possibly be that many of them right? Wrong. Most people playing software games have been willing to cheat or use a trick outside the stated rules to win at one point or another. We all do it. This is human psychology 101. If we think we can get away with it while not hurting others then we humans tend to cheat. I can post links to huge studies on this, but suffice it to say that everyone cheats at something for some reason.

So now the real problem is dealing with cheaters. As players we have basically one tool, that is our ability to spot and report cheaters. About all we can do. It's up to Blizzard to do the rest. The problem is many cheaters like cheating and don't like being caught. So many are on these forums disassembling anything related to shining a light on how they operate. This is why I am making this post. Maybe it helps some people recognize these cheaters in this and other FPS games. If cheaters don't think they can get away with cheating they tend to not cheat as much. Which is another thing those psychology studies tend to point out.

The thing about cheaters, is they tend to fall into 2 main categories. Those that don't give a duck. Also, there are those that don't want to be caught, but actually use the cheat to make it to the top of the competition. The former are usually pretty easy to spot and truth be told, are a bit rarer indeed. They have no problem with blatantly cheating and letting the world know they are cheating. Whether they are being a pure troll, or think they are deluding themselves into some misguided vengeance upon a specific competitive system they are willing to go out of their way to ruin the fun of others. Simply put they are trolls. There are other forms of trolls in games to be sure, but the worst are cheating trolls. In FPS games, these kinds of cheaters use the cheats to extreme that can be done. Teleporting where they shouldn't be, killing everything in a manner that shouldn't be possible, and just crashing the game as often as possible are all things these guys attempt to do in FPS games.

The second kind of cheaters are harder to spot. Mostly because they don't want to get caught. Still, there are degrees of subtle-ability here though. Most of the aimbot hacking programs for sale but the various companies that sell these things are very sophisticated in allowing a user to not be found out. It all depends on how the user configures and uses the cheat program. Bad or new users to the cheat program tend to do what this Bastion does in this youtube video:

https://youtu.be/l06M8qmtQAs?t=24

You can read the description for the break down, but here is the general gist of what is happening. The user doesn't have the aimbot configured for smooth play. The user is basically fighting for control of the cursor at times while the aimbot is trying to drag the cursor back to the nearest target it can and shoot it. Most aimbots have a radius range at which they decide to lock onto a target when the user hits the fire or lock-on button. Also, the user never configured the bot to not lock onto targets behind obstructions. So the user can be seen several times shooting at targets behind the walls while tracking the targets movement. The last tell-tale sign is that the lock-on aspect of the aimbot is configured for the straight path from the cursor to the target. This results in a "snapping" motion of the cursor that is very unnatural for human hands to reproduce. In fact it's impossible as the human hand can't quite draw a line that straight with a mouse at a fast speed. Don't believe me? Fire up paint and draw a perfect free hand line with your mouse at a speed you'd try to lock onto a target in an FPS. To save you the trouble, the answer is you can't. It's beyond human physical ability just like we can't breathe underwater on our own.

If you are having trouble seeing in that video of the Bastion of what I am describing, I slowed it down in another video to show it frame by frame here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O3531X634o

When I posted these videos in other threads, they were dismissed by many. Again I am not sure if it is cheaters dismissing evidence to cover up their own cheating, die hard Blizzard fanboys that can't possibly believe Blizzard games can be hacked, or the genuinely ignorant. Doesn't matter. The fact is that the Bastion in the video above isn't being very good at trying to hide his cheating due to sheer ineptitude in his use of the hacking program. Oh to head off the argument once again that the snapping motion in the video is caused by the "20.8" tick rate, I'll state right now that such argument is absurd. 21 FPS is more than enough frames to see mostly smooth motion. Yes the game has interpolation going on, but any straight line interpolation is going to be measured by pixels on the screen for movement and not by inches. Here is a video link of a different bastion that is not using an aimbot. Although there is also tons of footage of normal killcam and POTG videos on youtube of normal not cheating players that show the same thing as this video link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIcSxjCh7g8

What this video shows is how normal people track targets in an FPS. The mouse tends to be jerkier when tracking targets. When panning to a new target people always over correct and don't stop pixel perfect on the exact spot on a person's head. Everyone does that. Even the pros. The difference between a pro FPS player and the average good one is basically experience at knowing where to shoot a new target while not being a target themselves. It is not having perfect robotic coordination. A pro player may have reactions in terms of movement, using abilities slightly faster, and knowing every square inch of a map, but they can't draw a perfectly straight free hand line in MS Paint with a mouse and stop on a pixel.

Which brings us to the next point of my post. Those cheaters that are really good at hiding their cheating. Again these hacking programs can be configured to allow the aimbot to not lock onto targets behind walls, not lock onto targets until the user already has the mouse within a very close pixel radius distance around the target, to move the mouse in a less linear or straight line fashion when locking on, and to not always target track the head but spread in a body shot or two. Truth be told, when cheaters are being that good then chances are you won't be able to spot them more than likely. Even I have a harder time spotting players cheating that well and I have much experience in trying to spot cheaters. Still even the best cheaters slip up. Unfortunately, the current spectate implementation in Overwatch prevents most cheaters from being seen when they slip up unless it's caught on a random PotG replay. Blizzard seriously needs to implement a better spectator mode in the game as such modes to help keep down cheaters.

Still, there are tons of videos on youtube of people trying to spot the really good cheaters in various FPS games. Counter Strike is notorious for cheaters and there are a ton of cheater spotting videos to look at. Most of the commentators do a pretty good job at pointing out why that person is cheating and how.

Truth be told, Blizzard, like every other company, will never be able to stop cheaters from cheating. Hackers have more time and aren't stuck to a release cycle for their products like big game companies are. So anytime a big game company changes their security, the hackers will very quickly adapt their programs in response. Yes before that Blizzard will collect some info on those cheating during that time frame before the hacks have been updated and some players may be banned. Still, most wait for the hackers to update their software and then go right back to cheating until Blizzard can do another release cycle to update their security again.

Which makes reporting cheaters a more effective strategy than relying upon big game companies so long as said game companies are willing to respond to reports while giving players the ability to make good usable reports on cheaters. This means better spectator mode and in-game video capture tech for when a spectator spots a cheater. As well as a dedicated team by said big game company to go over such reports.

I'm also still laughing royally at all the recent banned "pro" player accounts from TF2 with Steam finally getting their hands on LMAOBOX hacking software source code and banning a crap ton of players which included many "pro" players of that game.

Beyond the cheaters though, I did enjoy the games that didn't have a hacker/aimbot in it. Those weren't many, but there were some. I have footage of me doing very well in those instances. Although the game revolved a bit too much around which team could get the Q's up more often and coordinate their team work on those Q's more than anything else really. Still, I enjoyed playing darn near every character in the game. Only zenyatta was the champ I felt a bit underwhelming compared to any other champ due to being a support that can't heal himself.

I do feel like they need more to the game. A co-op story line would certainly see me buying the game because I have zero interested in the hacker fest that MP brings to these games.
 
Last edited:

s44

Diamond Member
Oct 13, 2006
9,427
16
81
We've already had a guy getting booted from his pro team for alleged aimbotting, and Blizzard announced a first-offense-ban policy. Probably good that Open Beta had hackers for the data-gathering side of it... The difference between this and TF2/CSGO is the price tag.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
We've already had a guy getting booted from his pro team for alleged aimbotting, and Blizzard announced a first-offense-ban policy. Probably good that Open Beta had hackers for the data-gathering side of it... The difference between this and TF2/CSGO is the price tag.

Price tag will make little difference if there is an incentive involved. LMAOBOX went undetected for years before Steam finally got their hands on the source code after the creator of the LMAOBOX software got his computer hacked by remote access.

WoW, SC2, and Diablo 3 as Blizzard games have been hacked for years despite having high price tags to play. Some get caught, but the majority don't. Again, the good hackers only use the hacks between release cycles. If done properly with a good hack setup, most users go years without being caught if ever.

Tell yourself all you want how secure you think a game like Overwatch is. I'm here to tell you it isn't at all. It can be better with better replay and spectator watching options by the community though. Still, the really good hackers are very difficult to spot on replay footage because of how they configure their hacks.
 
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