P-4 puts Thunderbird to shame !!!!!!!!!!!

[DarkMajiq]

400, wow

And Zephyr has a good point about the article at Tom's.

 

[Zephyr]

Frustrated2


<< I find it hard to believe that they will be able to integrate SSE2 properly into there products. >>


Sorry but here I'm going to have to lower myself to the level of certain members here and call you a moron flat out! AMD implemented MMX, and certain SSE intructions, AMDs designers are at least as capable as Intels (probably more I'd say). If you cared to examine the design differences between the P4 and the K7 achitechture you would realize this!!!

NOS


<< The point here is that its not a real viable everyday machine ya MORON >>


Have you had some kind of firsthand experience with this setup since you can claim it is not stable?

 

[Fatdog]

Don't lower yourself that way. Remember, never argue with fools, they drag you down to their level, then beat you with experiance.

You can show benchmark after benchmark to him and he's still going to ignore it. He's already stated he's only here to irritate AMD owners. Reason and intelligent discourse have nothing to do with it.

 

[Dexion]

He seems &quot;shameless&quot;, being proved as a arrogant pathetic Intel cheerleader. Despite being proven that the P4 isn't a shiner, he seems to keep on dancing, someone toss him that White suit and green paint!

 

[IHYLN]

I'm going to jump in here and I'm going to make a few off color statements. Apparently, NOShead and sexuallyfrustrated2 do not understand the meaning of 'VALUE' and enjoy circle jerking to a P4 system. That's some life you got there fellas.

First off, it's ok to post 'hey I got to xxxx mhz! Look at my benches!' but when you start posting crap how it supposedly creams a Tbird @ 1.2ghz, you start to look VERY dumb. Especially when the general consencious on the net apprears to be giving the P4 a thumbs down.

Let me tell you, I had some spare stuff laying around that I sold for a KT133A board and a 1.2ghz, I'm happily running at 1.46ghz. One thing for sure is that I cannot tell the damned difference between my current rig and my old one at 1.1ghz!

You won the pissing contest. But the real winners are the ones who dont bomb a message board with useless crap like yours.

Before I end, I'd like to say that you are probably a very egotistical person IRL, judging by your comments and your initial posting.

But anyway, I'm happy that you got a P4, someone has to keep feeding the intel engineers so they will live long enough to give AMD some competition

 

[NOS440]

Zephyr



<< Have you had some kind of firsthand experience with this setup since you can claim it is not stable? >>



No I haven't had any first hand experience with it and am not saying that it isn't stable. I'm saying that having a Full Blown household fan Pumping cold air from the great out doors into the case and the condensation and what not that this will produce is not a viable or even smart setup. That is all I'm saying. what does he do when it rains outside ?? I would like to know what the system will do in a closed case with just standard cooling the same as I run mine. I could resort to such extreme cooling measures too. but I'm happy right where I am. I just think that its kind of silly to compare some half baked cooling setup to my standard closed case with a $9 cooler thats all. If the guy gets his kicks this way and enjoys it that is fine. I just don't see where its a Valid setup for any normal user.


IHYLN I'm glad you like your 1.2 GHZ hell I'm thinking of getting one just to compare after all this. How are you cooling your setup to 1.46 GHZ and do you have any stressfull benchmark to add to this mix. Please none of those silly Sisoft Benches they don't prove stability. I have said over and over though out this thread that the P-4 doesn't whipp the Athlon at everything But the Future of the Thunderbird is not looking good in the near future DDR isn't going to save it. But anyway's let us see some of your Benchmarks you accuse me of not giving any valid Benchmarks I have mailed them to one person and will put them up as a Link as soon a @home fixes there reg. sight. So you talk the talk now WALK THE WALK

 

[dougjnn]

NOS440

<<But the Future of the Thunderbird is not looking good in the near future DDR isn't going to save it.>>

I can't agree with you. The T-Bird line looks good with the Palomino, which will plug into T-Bird mobos (at least the KT133A ones), through the end of this year. Palominos should get at least 1.7ghz, and probably more. That is likely to be competitive with, or beat 2.0ghz P-4s through the end of the year.

In 2002 both cos will be moving to .13mu. A .13mu Palomino might well extend the life of 133mhz Socket A mobos for some time. That would certainly be a smart AMD move, especially since they don't focus much on sell mobo chipsets.

By the end of 2002 or early 2003 P4's may be at really fast speeds. Then maybe it will be Intel time again.

But one thing seems for sure to me. The cost of discount retail P4, p4 mobo and RDRAM in large quantities, like I like my ram, is a very poor decision to make right now. Unless of course you have some special source of product. But then of course, that isn't a generally applicable consideration, now is it?

This is especially true since 1) Intel will be changing the P4 socket to increase the pins in second half of 2001, so you would have to get a new motherboard for P4 upgrades after that time (!!); and 2) DDR ram is supposed to come out for the P4 and be considerably cheaper when it ships in quantity than RDRAM. (And probably outperform it, because of its latency advantages combined with bandwith comparability.) That will mean that it isn't until the new mobo form factors with DDR are out for the P4 that you start to be talking about a mobo/ram combination which is cost effective and able to take a year's out or more of upgrade cpu.

So for now and the next nine months, at the very least, T-Birds make far more sense. They are likely to be a competitive investment, at least, for upgrades six months from now (Palomino once it starts to come down), and a year from now or more than that (.13 trace Palominos).

Seems to me.

 

[Zephyr]

Please NOS
Would you please read IHYLN's specs agian regarding cooling? Is that blowing arctic air on it or whatever you'tre trying to imply? Basically your statement about heat being a major issue at 1400MHz on the Tbird is quite invalid

 

[NOS440]

dougjnn

Well as I see it with out the neccesary changes to the Thunderbird pltform to give it a benefit with DDR I don't see that as it scales up in MHZ how it will keep up. The faster the chip goes the more Memory hungry it will be and the current chipset are not showing any real benefit with DDR to speak of.


On the P-4 front the lentancy issue is null and as toms hardware showed with his Bandwidth test that going to DDR will hinder its performance alot. The P-4 was designed from the ground up for Rdram and it shows in testing. I will venture to say that DDR will only hinder its performance and be targeted for the Budget buyer. I don't fit into that Buying skeem. Although with what I have into my stuff a Thunderbird rig would cost me more.

 

[NOS440]

Zephyr I wasn't refering to him I was refering to the Other rig that was mentioned in this thread with links to his Benches and a picture of his rig(that I supplied) with a Household fan pumping outside Artic air into the case thru a window. I don't see ant specs from IHYLN
in fact I asked for them or am I missing something ??

 

[Mykex]

Ok now thats just silly.....


<< But the Future of the Thunderbird is not looking good >>


I certainly hope not! I hope something far better is right around the corner.

I dont think the TBird is in any trouble what so ever from your P4. Lets face it whos got that kind of cash to toss around. With a much cheaper near equal option I dont forsee any mad rush to go to P4s. If anything the P4 has done nothing but hurt the status of Intel. As any well read net-techie knows it has been bashed from day one. Kind of reminds you of the release of the Voodoo5's but hey 3DFX bounced back from that just fine.


In the end all I see from this thread is this:
dude1.....Hey I got that new P4 system going boy is it cool!

dude2.....Wow you must have had a ball with it! What games did you play you must have really kicked azz man?

dude1.....No I spent most of my time on anand BBS trying to stir up AMD users by telling how my P4 is way better.

dude2.....Ohhh Uhh OK? Have fun......

 

[Zephyr]

NOS
chekc out this thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=28&amp;threadid=334190

 

[NOS440]

I guess most of you haven't heard that Intel has vowed to bring the P-4 into the main stream thru aggressive pricing as production scales upward they just dropped the prices again by 20%. Price is not going to be a Issue much longer. Rdram is already at the same price as we were paying for Sdram just a few short months ago. 150 for 128 megs is really not that bad and as things get going that will drop also !!! So the price crutch your all ranting about will dissapeer soon. Now it will be down to performance and Scaling and we all know the P-4 stands to scale much better and why is you think that AMD wants to release a Chip that supports SSE2 it must be a pretty good instruction set if they want to have it implemented in there product wouldn't you say ??

 

[Zephyr]

<< ...SSE2 it must be a pretty good instruction set if they want to have it implemented in there product wouldn't you say >>


Actually the quality of it has nothing to do with it.. AMD could make an equevilant if they wanted to. However Intel still has, for historical reasons, the position to force standards through on the market. AMD realizes this and has to play along on this one. Besides they'll just pass the bill Intel charges on to the costumers anyway I bet ya'll that

 

[IHYLN]

NOS.. you want benchmarks? We all gave you benchmarks. Try SETI and RC5. Now, I don't run SETI but RC5 yes. I currently get around 5.1mkey/s and you need a VERY good FPU to kick butt in RC5, something that the P4 does not have.

Ok, next up is SETI. Like I said before, I don't run seti but from a couple sources say that a tbird @ 1.2ghz bests the P4 1.5ghz again.

There, you wanted benchmarks, you got benchmarks. and yes, click on the thread that zeph posted, you'll see my scores and everything else. I just use a plain old alpha pal6035 and a delta fan. My temps are around 109F-111F under a full load. No artic wind needed here.

edit:

NOS, I don't feel like posting 50 times in one thread so here I go again. You said something about 128mb of RDRAM going for 150. Um. yeah, but that's $300+ for TWO, remember you need to buy RDRAM in pairs. Otherwise if you want 128, you'll have to buy two 64mb RIMMS for around $168 (PC800, not PC600 crap, check PW and make sure it's NON ECC)

Please.. stop shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[NOS440]

I have 2 64s I'd sell for 145 right now PC800 but I alway's run my systems with 256 anyway's so whats the point all I was saying is that its priced the same as Sdram was not that long ago ???


I ask you for something concrete in your post so are you going to do it or not ?? the rc5 and all that is just hear say. Put up a 3Dmark screen shot at that speed and prove your stability if you do I will eat crow and I need proof from 3dmark of the mhz.

 

[DarkMajiq]

And we will need proof of you eating the crow.

 

[NOS440]

Oh you will I will bow down with a post stating the Thunderbird rules!

I have changed the rules after advise from others that he has to email the saved results anything else could be tampered with. I have to cover myself it will be hard to eat crow LOL!!!!!!

 

[frustrated2]

Zephyr my friend you are the MORON AMD still can't make chipsets to support their processors and this is supposed to be their specialty right??? I think they will have a tough time implementing SSE2 and should concentrate on making some good chipsets for their processors as well as fixing the heat problem with their current processor so people don't have to open the window and wear carharts in order to make their computers run stable.

 

[systemshock1701]

Any of my friends who know my know that what I'm about to say is rather out of character, but I have to give the Athlon its due. I will bash neither company's processor from now on, I will just continue to use Intel products. Regarding the P4. Actually, it is a model of smart design and careful consideration of where the industry as a whole is headed. Why? Well, look at the benchmarks (refering to TOM's especially). Benchmarks that run lots of standard x86 code get beaten by the T-bird. However, Intel, and I think all of us know in out hearts, do we REALLY NEED current software to go much faster. With the exception of Video editing software and games, nothing REALLY takes advantage of the extra clockspeed added to the Coppermine and T-bird in the last year. I think Intel took that into account with P4. I think they are forcing the programers to start REALLY taking advantage of processor architectures in their code, and to come up with better, newer compilers. In the tom's benchmark for instance, Intel went back and recompile FLASK and even the T-bird performed better. Even though I'm an intel supporter (hey, we need SOMEONE to lead, don't we, but I've bitched about their pricing like everyone else here) I think we need to understand that Intel is first and foremost at the mercy of their stockholders. They made record profits last year, in spite of Processor shortages, the i820 scandal, and Athlon marketshare. They did that with higher prices. You all saw what happened when they said that they were going to be off by all of 3 percent. THAT is the reason why they don't price themselves like AMD unless forced to (Like now), they have to make a profit large enough to satisfy their shareholders. Their pricing for instance, is the reason why two days ago, I just built two 700 T-bird systems for friends really cheap. I however, am going to go to a P3 933 with the new price drop. So, I disagree with NOS's blind distortion of reality, but I also take issue with many people's blind devotion to AMD. Hate Intel because of their pricing if you want, but give each company props when they deserve it. The P4 is a damn good design waiting for software...that's a fact. Athlon is doing exactly what AMD needed it to do: match or beat Intel enough to get them Market share WITH OEM's. Even though I'm quite sure that AMD loves what we in the geek community have to say about it, they're even more happy when an OEM orders another 2000 processors. So, to everyone here, give Intel a break. They're NOT stupid, they're in this to MAKE MONEY and to LEAD THE INDUSTRY, and give credit to Athlon for doing what it does, MAKE INTEL CONTINUE TO LEAD and work the software companies, so that BOTH companies make better products for us all. SOrry for the long post...but I hope it helps...

 

[dougjnn]

Systemshock1701 --

I agree with all of what you said.

Further, the P4 was designed to perform well at highly ramped clock speeds. It is at the very beginning of its clock ramp, and will more easily move up in speed.

I think by sometime between mid 2002 and mid 2003 Intel P4's are likely to seem the way to go. They just seem dramatically NOT the way to go to me now. Coppermines either.

I agree that the new P4 architecture seems like it is the way forward. I remember when the PII came out. At first it was actually slower than the P MMX clock for clock. But then it ramped way up in speed. Followed by the PIII. The P4 is like that, only even more so, being more of an architecture change.

I agree that Intel is laying the groundwork for the futre. The P4 just doesn't seem like the smart place to be for the next 9 months or more to me. And it is unlikely to be dramatically better until 1.5 years from now, I don't think. Those two things decide current decision making for me.

 

[NOS440]

Well everyone although after some research I feel that a retraction of the eat crow post is in order I'm not going to go that far I will let you decide I am giving you a link to a comparison on the 3Dmark sight of IHYLN score to a 850 Athlon with the same video card that scored almost the same as he did. Now I said the score didn't matter and did what I said I would do But its pretty obvious that he did some heavy untweaking of his system to score this low and get his system to not lock up. I mean he is 34 pages back from the Thunderbirds that are clocked the same as He is that are published results that = 680 results behind the top scores. this is pretty thin!!!!!

Here is the comparision


Also heres my p-4 compared to his score

 

[IHYLN]

systemshock, you posted the most level headed and fair response yet.

frustrated2, take heed.

I'll set the record straight. I swore by intel until the athlons were released. yeah the original core ran really hot but I waited for the K75 core. I picked up a 800mhz classic and clocked it to a gig and I've been using athlons ever since.

there are a lot of intel proponents who tout 'speed and stability' but what they don't see is that an equal number of intel users also suffer from problems. Lately, AMD/VIA have been getting very good.

Too many people are wrapped in intel's security blanket thinking that they are getting a great deal because it's intel and everyone else sucks. They hear one or two horror stories from the AMD camp and create a judgement. I thought that way too until I actually GOT an AMD setup. Now, I can't imagine paying the insane premiums that intel chips carry.

my 2 cents.

 

[NOS440]

Yea but thanks to AMD the Intel price gouging is slowing coming to a end. I still say they support there products better than AMD and that adds a extra Value to there pruducts although not the price premuims of the past or right now on the P-4. But I really think that you are going to see a much more competitve Intel in the Future.

 

[frustrated2]

IHYLN I had an AMD setup and don't think that I am going back I don't like AMDBSOD's so I will stay with intel until AMD starts to support their product better with in house chipsets.


Systemshock great post I think it was well said