PA 18 Special Election Updates

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Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,533
759
146
This is a fundamental notion all humans believe in. Its why we have people sign donor cards for example.

Opt-out is better than opt-in.

No one has a right over another person's body, including a fetus.

I could care less when life starts, that's a pointless argument.

The bodily autonomy argument is flawed. You can easily flip the script on Judith Thomson's violinist hypothetical.
 
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Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
We extend very few rights to very few living things.
Very true. I have been to parts of the world where there is very little value attributed to human life.

So apply my post to the parts of the earth where we respect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Do you have access to some hallucinogenic mushrooms?
Unfortunately no, but I can understand how comprehension of your explanation would require that I enter into an altered reality. What if I put on some Pink Floyd and shoot a laser pointer in a darkened room for an hour?
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Those of us who find it morally wrong to force the actions of others on the basis of our beliefs alone are in quite a pickle with your logic.
That pickle only exists if you do not believe a fetus is a human life...but Lamb does, hence the pickle.

And for the record, I support abortion only so far that the Pandora’s Box is already open, and women will seek them regardless, so there is a public interest in making them safe and accessible. However, I caveat that position with the belief we should complement that legality with free and accessible birth control. I also caveat that position with the belief that were science to determine the point of consciousness, that it should be illegal for an abortion to occur from the point of consciousness.
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,533
759
146
Life is not a belief. It is a binary. You are either alive or you are not. If you believe that life begins at conception, that means all of the rights we extend to living beings now apply. If you believe life begins at conception, then abortion is taking a life.

The HOMGARR definition of life applies to everything else living. It's not a significant milestone. I mean, if we talk about that early, a zygote can still turn into a chimera with another zygote or a blastocyst could divide into twins. When does personhood start? People don't even gain self-awareness until over a year old and then there's also the development of episodic memory afterwards.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
That pickle only exists if you do not believe a fetus is a human life...but Lamb does, hence the pickle.

And for the record, I support abortion only so far that the Pandora’s Box is already open, and women will seek them regardless, so there is a public interest in making them safe and accessible. However, I caveat that position with the belief we should complement that legality with free and accessible birth control. I also caveat that position with the belief that were science to determine the point of consciousness, that it should be illegal for an abortion to occur from the point of consciousness.

You pose or ask for absolutes which will never exist in the realm of man. The most convenient defense of this is belief that a deity has resolved your conflicts for you. Please do not impose your beliefs on me me. I recognize that if I were to declare myself absolutely all-knowing about what constitutes life and which lives require absolute protection and which do not then I could escape my conflicts. But please do not tell me I am wrong for choosing otherwise.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Unfortunately no, but I can understand how comprehension of your explanation would require that I enter into an altered reality. What if I put on some Pink Floyd and shoot a laser pointer in a darkened room for an hour?
Along with some breathing exercises, I think you'd get there.

Have a great weekend.
 
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MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
2,587
318
126
Opt-out is better than opt-in.



The bodily autonomy argument is flawed. You can easily flip the script on Judith Thomson's violinist hypothetical.

The critiques of that argument are overly simplistic relying on their own flawed logic as to why people have sex.

Try again.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The HOMGARR definition of life applies to everything else living. It's not a significant milestone. I mean, if we talk about that early, a zygote can still turn into a chimera with another zygote or a blastocyst could divide into twins. When does personhood start? People don't even gain self-awareness until over a year old and then there's also the development of episodic memory afterwards.
What does HOMGARR stand for? I looked it up and didn’t get any hits
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,533
759
146
What does HOMGARR stand for? I looked it up and didn’t get any hits

H
Homeostasis
O
Organization
M
Metabolism
G
Growth / Development
A
Adaptation
R (1st)
Reproduction
R (2nd)
Response to Stimuli

The critiques of that argument are overly simplistic relying on their own flawed logic as to why people have sex.

You can flip the script in numerous ways, which utilitarianism would be useful in. Shee-it, I bet Peter Singer would argue the utilitarian solution would be to stay attached, and that's her best shot. She's trying to formulate a deontological argument, but deontological arguments are incredibly flawed.

Edit: Finally posted. Odd. Apparently site doesn't like links to quizlets.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
H
Homeostasis
O
Organization
M
Metabolism
G
Growth / Development
A
Adaptation
R (1st)
Reproduction
R (2nd)
Response to Stimuli
Thank you. I am still not finding any links to this acronym. I am interested in learning more. One question, are these criteria the threshold for defining life?
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
You pose or ask for absolutes which will never exist in the realm of man. The most convenient defense of this is belief that a deity has resolved your conflicts for you. Please do not impose your beliefs on me me. I recognize that if I were to declare myself absolutely all-knowing about what constitutes life and which lives require absolute protection and which do not then I could escape my conflicts. But please do not tell me I am wrong for choosing otherwise.
I don’t believe in deities and I am not imposing anything. I am just curious how someone reconciles being pro choice and also believing life begins at conception.
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,533
759
146
Thank you. I am still not finding any links to this acronym. I am interested in learning more. One question, are these criteria the threshold for defining life?

Yep. They are the 7 characteristics of life. You probably can't find it easily because different words are used to essentially say the same thing..
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
I don’t believe in deities and I am not imposing anything. I am just curious how someone reconciles being pro choice and also believing life begins at conception.

But you're not making this into another abortion thread... heavens, no!
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Yep. They are the 7 characteristics of life. You probably can't find it easily because different words are used to essentially say the same thing..
Interesting. The 7 characteristics seem to define what falls under the category of living things...humans, plants, bacteria, etc...but not necessarily the criteria you would use to determine if a living thing is alive at the present moment.

A paralyzed person may be unable to move (movement) or someone in a vegetative state may not demonstrate sensitivity to stimuli.
 

MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
2,587
318
126
H
Homeostasis
O
Organization
M
Metabolism
G
Growth / Development
A
Adaptation
R (1st)
Reproduction
R (2nd)
Response to Stimuli



You can flip the script in numerous ways, which utilitarianism would be useful in. Shee-it, I bet Peter Singer would argue the utilitarian solution would be to stay attached, and that's her best shot. She's trying to formulate a deontological argument, but deontological arguments are incredibly flawed.

Edit: Finally posted. Odd. Apparently site doesn't like links to quizlets.
Dodging using philosophical rat holes is still dodging.

I'm sticking with Monty Python.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
But you're not making this into another abortion thread... heavens, no!
No, I made it a thread about how, even in the age of Trump with the wind at their backs, Democrats still had to run a centrist candidate that may be left of the alt-right, but is also far right of the resistance left...with abortion being a notable example.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,940
49,663
136
No, I made it a thread about how, even in the age of Trump with the wind at their backs, Democrats still had to run a centrist candidate that may be left of the alt-right, but is also far right of the resistance left...with abortion being a notable example.

But he has the same stance on abortion as millions of democrats, including the most recent Vice President and the party’s 2004 nominee. It’s a very mainstream democratic position.
 
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Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
But he has the same stance on abortion as millions of democrats, including the most recent Vice President and the party’s 2004 nominee. It’s a very mainstream democratic position.
I never said it wasn’t. I am saying it is a position taken of political expediency...I say one thing but I REALLY BELIEVE something else...and that such positions will be the next political fault lines once the alt-right fades back into obscurity.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,509
11,824
136
Opt-out is better than opt-in.


Absolutely NOT. Requiring people to opt out, whether it's for spam, personal information sharing by banks and others, or organ donation is a terrible idea that implies that our bodies and information actually belong to someone else.

Opt IN (if you so choose) is the right thing.
 

JujuFish

Lifer
Feb 3, 2005
11,034
752
136
Absolutely NOT. Requiring people to opt out, whether it's for spam, personal information sharing by banks and others, or organ donation is a terrible idea that implies that our bodies and information actually belong to someone else.

Opt IN (if you so choose) is the right thing.

Agreed. Opt-out is unethical, even if it's for a good cause.
 
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