Pakistan clerics explain 'jihad'

[Czar]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4711003.stm

a very good read, goes into explaining what jihad really is, too many people misunderstand it

 

[Starbuck1975]

Islam does not allow killing of innocent civilians and non-combatants under any circumstances

Apparently these terrorist knuckleheads are unaware of this small little detail. :roll:

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Islam does not allow killing of innocent civilians and non-combatants under any circumstances

Apparently these terrorist knuckleheads are unaware of this small little detail. :roll:

I don't think it should surprise anyone that those people managed to miss the vast majority of the point. People like that almost always do.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Islam does not allow killing of innocent civilians and non-combatants under any circumstances

Apparently these terrorist knuckleheads are unaware of this small little detail. :roll:

But see, if they are doing <insert perfectly normal thing seen as evil>, they aren't innocent, much less noncombatants!

 

[Rogue]

So what I'm getting from this is that these guys committing these acts are uneducated retards with a chip on their shoulder and too much money to spend. It's all made clear now.

 

[martinez]

Originally posted by: Rogue
So what I'm getting from this is that these guys committing these acts are uneducated retards with a chip on their shoulder and too much money to spend. It's all made clear now.

In other words they live in a "Red State".

 

[Smaug]

They aren't uneducated, the 9/11 hijackers were extremely well educated. They knew after all how to guide a plane into buildings, not to mention many had postgraduate degrees etc. These people aren't stupid, but they are radicalized by a small group of ignorant clerics. Those clerics need to go, the poison they seep into the hearts of many young muslims needs to be stopped.

 

[Duckzilla]

Isn't the World Wide Web great? All the little jealous turds in the world finally have a voice.

 

[Starbuck1975]

In other words they live in a "Red State".

And this is why the Democrats lost in 2004...dismissing over 50% of the American population is certainly not going to win votes.

Regardless, your point is moot as the majority of Al Quaida's masterminds, lieutenants and even suicide bombers are highly educated, and prior to the rise of Al Quaida, probably would have qualified as being westernized and secular.

Al Quaida wraps itself in Islam, but I think it is more a ploy to appeal to the passions of the masses.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

In other words they live in a "Red State".

And this is why the Democrats lost in 2004...dismissing over 50% of the American population is certainly not going to win votes.

Regardless, your point is moot as the majority of Al Quaida's masterminds, lieutenants and even suicide bombers are highly educated, and prior to the rise of Al Quaida, probably would have qualified as being westernized and secular.

Al Quaida wraps itself in Islam, but I think it is more a ploy to appeal to the passions of the masses.

I think everyone should read the Quran here. It does specifically say violence against unbelievers is ok.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I think everyone should read the Quran here. It does specifically say violence against unbelievers is ok.

Perhaps, but there are very specific guidelines for what dictates a jihad...these extremist groups have twisted Islam to become a recruiting tool to feed on the frustrations and passions of Islamic society, and the tensions between it and western society for several centuries.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
I think everyone should read the Quran here. It does specifically say violence against unbelievers is ok.

And Christians are specifically mentioned in Quran as believers. It is even describes how "the prophet" Jesus will lead His followers into Paradise through their own gate set aside for them.
How about YOU read it, eh?

Originally posted by: Duckzilla
Isn't the World Wide Web great? All the little jealous turds in the world finally have a voice.

"The irony of the Information Age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion."

 

[azazyel]

Got this from someone on Fark...


The Quran on "Infidels"

NOTE: Differing Quranic translations use slightly different numbering systems - if you do not find the verse in the Quran as quoted here it will be a few verses up or down from its reference.

What does the Quran have to say on the matter of violence with respect to Islam?

"Those who follow Muhammad are merciless for the unbelievers but kind to each other." (48:29)

It's important to read this stuff in context, and to know what the verses are actually about.

Sura 48, verse 29:

29
Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel - like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengtheneth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers - that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them. Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward.
************************************************************

"Hard against disbelievers". Not "Kill them all!". And no worse than things I can find in the christian bible.

"Enmity and hatred will reign between us until ye believe in Allah alone." (60:4)

Sura 60, verse 4:
4
There is a goodly pattern for you in Abraham and those with him, when they told their folk: Lo! we are guiltless of you and all that ye worship beside Allah. We have done with you. And there hath arisen between us and you hostility and hate for ever until ye believe in Allah only - save that which Abraham promised his father (when he said): I will ask forgiveness for thee, though I own nothing for thee from Allah - Our Lord! In Thee we put our trust, and unto Thee we turn repentant, and unto Thee is the journeying.
**********************************************************

This basically means that Abraham (from the old testament) is held up as good example to muslims, because he told people that they should believe in God. The bit about "hostility and hate for ever until ye believe in Allah only" is quoting Abraham.

"Make war on them until idolatory does not exist any longer and Allah's religion reigns universally." (8:39) (2:193)

Sura 8, verse 38-40:
38
Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).

39
And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.

40
And if they turn away, then know that Allah is your Befriender - a Transcendent Patron, a Transcendent Helper!
***********************************************************

Sura 8 is not about fighting all non-muslims in the world.
It's about a specific battle where the few followers of Muhammed beat a larger army of people from Mecca, who had broken a peace treaty.

Sura 2, 190-193:
190
Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

191
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

192
But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

193
And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
***********************************************************

Your quote conveniently leaves out the important bits about not being agressive and only fighting people who attack you.


"Fight the unbelievers in your surroundings, and let them find harshness in you." (9:123)

Sura 9, verse 123:
123
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
*********************************************************

Sura 9 is all about the aftermath of the battle described in sura 8, the Battle of Badr. The "disbelievers" are not all non-muslims, but specific local arabs who fought against Mohammed and his followers outside Medina.


"Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, capture and besiege them and prepare for them every kind of ambush." (9:5)

Sura 9, verse 3-5:
3
And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,

4
Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).

5
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
*****************************************

Again, this is not a call to war on all christians, jews, hindus and shintoists. It's written (or divinely dictated to the ears of the prophet or whatever) immidiately following an attack by hostile arabs in 625 CE.


All these quotes are taken out of context and distorted to seem more threatening to all non-muslims. They are often used in anti-muslim propaganda.

There is plenty of agression and warfare in the Quran, like there is in the bible.
There is no need to exagerate and distort. That only serves to further ignorance and fear.

 

[jpeyton]

I took a class in college with a nationally awarded professor of philosophy on this topic and we researched and discussed Jihad in great detail. Islam has several different types of Jihad, not just a physical war as most people think. For example, simply defending Islam with words when it comes under attack from nonbelievers is considered Jihad.

Jihad also can describe a physical war, but a call for Jihad can only be made if Islam is under attack by nonbelievers.

I think the problem is that many groups that preach radical Islam have used Iraq as a catalyst for converting people to a different interpretation of what Jihad is. After speaking to many Muslims I know, they all agree that you have to be pretty darn radical to believe suicide bombing civilian targets is defending Islam from nonbelievers. They are as shocked and dismayed at reports of Iraqi civilians being killed as we are.

Then again, having your country torn to shreds by an illegitimate war can definitely make people do some crazy things.

EDIT: Also remember that many radical Islamist groups, including al-Qaeda, are using the term Jihad to mask a large number of political reasons to attack western nations. As I recall, bin Laden was radicalized because he saw the corruption and influence of the US wrap itself around the Saudi Royals and Government in a grab for cheap oil; he also saw what affect this had on the lower classes of Saudi society. Having US military installations on Saudi soil was also a big conflict of interest, especially since the US had aided Israel in conflicts against Islamic nations in the past.

 

[Jave]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
I took a class in college with a nationally awarded professor of philosophy on this topic. Islam has several different types of Jihad, not just a physical war as most people think. For example, simply defending Islam with words when it comes under attack from nonbelievers is considered Jihad.

Jihad also can describe a physical war, but a call for Jihad can only be made if Islam is under attack by nonbelievers.

I think the problem is that many groups that preach radical Islam have used Iraq as a catalyst for converting people to a different interpretation of what Jihad is. After speaking to many Muslims I know, they all agree that you have to be pretty darn radical to believe suicide bombing civilian targets is defending Islam from nonbelievers. They are as shocked and dismayed at reports of Iraqi civilians being killed as we are.

Then again, having your country torn to shreds by an illegitimate war can definitely make people do some crazy things.

rightly described, jpeyton

 

[GreatBarracuda]

Originally posted by: azazyel
All these quotes are taken out of context and distorted to seem more threatening to all non-muslims. They are often used in anti-muslim propaganda.

Then why did you post them here? You know better than that.

 

[azazyel]

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: azazyel
All these quotes are taken out of context and distorted to seem more threatening to all non-muslims. They are often used in anti-muslim propaganda.

Then why did you post them here? You know better than that.

Because I have a small hope that someone will see the quote they have been pushing as evidence of Islamic hatred towards everyone else and realize that they have been duped.

 

[Taejin]

sounds like a President we know...

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: azazyel

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: azazyel
All these quotes are taken out of context and distorted to seem more threatening to all non-muslims. They are often used in anti-muslim propaganda.

Then why did you post them here? You know better than that.

Because I have a small hope that someone will see the quote they have been pushing as evidence of Islamic hatred towards everyone else and realize that they have been duped.

Indeed.

I find it interesting that people make such a big deal out of this stuff without apparently noticing that Christianity says a lot of the same things. If I wanted to go around killing non-Christians, I'm pretty sure I could find something in the Bible to back me up.

Which is of course not the point, I'm just saying let's not be hypocrits about it. I really don't think we can judge a religion only on the literal content of its holy book. But if we're going to do it for one religion, we need to do it for all of them.