Pakistan tribal elders shot dead

[Saint Michael]

From what I've read about Pakistani tribal leaders ("honor" rapes, "honor" killings), they probably had it coming.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Saint Michael
From what I've read about Pakistani tribal leaders ("honor" rapes, "honor" killings), they probably had it coming.

More than likely, they were a group opposed to such acts and those who commit them -- which may explain their murder.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Well gee, that's nice. The problem you plan, Ace, is that it's not just Pakistanis who are suffering AQ's attacks, .

The problem with your plan is you just don't go around violating a country's soverignity at will. That will only make the problem worse. I don't see why we can't handle the terroists when they come into Afghanistan.

We set goals for our invasion of Afghanistan and I guess our leaders got bored with doing the job right. Now someone is going to have to convince me that Pakistan can't handle it's own terrorists. I don't see the risk in expanding the conflict into yet another country being worth the reward.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Well gee, that's nice. The problem you plan, Ace, is that it's not just Pakistanis who are suffering AQ's attacks, .

The problem with your plan is you just don't go around violating a country's soverignity at will. That will only make the problem worse. I don't see why we can't handle the terroists when they come into Afghanistan.

We set goals for our invasion of Afghanistan and I guess our leaders got bored with doing the job right. Now someone is going to have to convince me that Pakistan can't handle it's own terrorists. I don't see the risk in expanding the conflict into yet another country being worth the reward.

Can you seriously not see how difficult it is to fight an enemy that has a "safe zone" to go recuperate?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Well gee, that's nice. The problem you plan, Ace, is that it's not just Pakistanis who are suffering AQ's attacks, .

The problem with your plan is you just don't go around violating a country's soverignity at will. That will only make the problem worse. I don't see why we can't handle the terroists when they come into Afghanistan.

We set goals for our invasion of Afghanistan and I guess our leaders got bored with doing the job right. Now someone is going to have to convince me that Pakistan can't handle it's own terrorists. I don't see the risk in expanding the conflict into yet another country being worth the reward.

Can you seriously not see how difficult it is to fight an enemy that has a "safe zone" to go recuperate?

What I see is an enemy that can't be beat with standard military tactics. It reminds me of the Yanks fighting the Redcoats in this country's Revolutionary War. Unless we're willing to start a draft and go do the job right we're just wasting time, money, and lives.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Well gee, that's nice. The problem you plan, Ace, is that it's not just Pakistanis who are suffering AQ's attacks, .

The problem with your plan is you just don't go around violating a country's soverignity at will. That will only make the problem worse. I don't see why we can't handle the terroists when they come into Afghanistan.

We set goals for our invasion of Afghanistan and I guess our leaders got bored with doing the job right. Now someone is going to have to convince me that Pakistan can't handle it's own terrorists. I don't see the risk in expanding the conflict into yet another country being worth the reward.

Can you seriously not see how difficult it is to fight an enemy that has a "safe zone" to go recuperate?

What I see is an enemy that can't be beat with standard military tactics. It reminds me of the Yanks fighting the Redcoats in this country's Revolutionary War. Unless we're willing to start a draft and go do the job right we're just wasting time, money, and lives.

SF is fighting them, we are NOT using standard military tactics.....

 

[Saint Michael]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Saint Michael
From what I've read about Pakistani tribal leaders ("honor" rapes, "honor" killings), they probably had it coming.

More than likely, they were a group opposed to such acts and those who commit them -- which may explain their murder.

Regardless of their immoral activity, tribal leaders don't necessarily support AQ and denounce their own government simply because AQ is slightly more psycho. After all, the government is not particularly hostile to tribal leaders and what they do anyway.

 

[Lemon law]

The JD50 delusion is---When is the last time a major Christian leader called for the deaths of all non-believers?

Basically since GWB&co invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and now treats their citizens like third class human being.

Oh I know I know, GWB does not actually say that, but actions speak far louder than words.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The JD50 delusion is---When is the last time a major Christian leader called for the deaths of all non-believers?

Basically since GWB&co invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and now treats their citizens like third class human being.

Oh I know I know, GWB does not actually say that, but actions speak far louder than words.

Yes, we clearly invaded Iraq and Afghanistan to spread Christianity and rid the world of non believers.....:roll:

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Well gee, that's nice. The problem you plan, Ace, is that it's not just Pakistanis who are suffering AQ's attacks, .

The problem with your plan is you just don't go around violating a country's soverignity at will. That will only make the problem worse.

"at will"?!? The Paks have had five fvcking years to take care of the problem for us! There comes a time when enough is enough, and we take care of the issue ourselves!

I don't see why we can't handle the terrorists when they come into Afghanistan.

So, sitting back on our butts and playing a never-ending game of whack-a-mole, along several hundred miles of the world's roughest terrain, is your idea of a plan?!

We set goals for our invasion of Afghanistan and I guess our leaders got bored with doing the job right. Now someone is going to have to convince me that Pakistan can't handle it's own terrorists.

Pakistan is NOT handling them, and if five years of AQ's consistent, unhindered growth doesn't convince you, then nothing ever will.

I don't see the risk in expanding the conflict into yet another country being worth the reward.

I can understand how/why the Iraq campaign has tainted your views a bit, but nobody is asking for a conventional invasion of Pakistan.

We were able to clear out the entire country of Afghanistan, in less than six months, with less than 100 SOF troops, a local militia, and USAF support. We could certainly do the same in NW Pakistan, but only if overly pacifist poosies like you would let us do so.

Like I said, knowingly allowing AQ to heal, arm, train, plot, and stage attacks from NW Pakistan is a g'damn crime -- and anyone who advocates doing so, indefinitely, is an idiot -- or an AQ supporter...?

 

[Lemon law]

The palehorse74 brag is the following---We were able to clear out the entire country of Afghanistan, in less than six months, with less than 100 SOF troops, a local militia, and USAF support. We could certainly do the same in NW Pakistan, if poosies like you would let us do so.

And here you are five years later with far more troops and you poosies can't prevent the taliban from having free rein in Afghanistan.

You want to know why you lost and are losing now---that started the moment when you made that alliance with that local militia.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The palehorse74 brag is the following---We were able to clear out the entire country of Afghanistan, in less than six months, with less than 100 SOF troops, a local militia, and USAF support. We could certainly do the same in NW Pakistan, if poosies like you would let us do so.

And here you are five years later with far more troops and you poosies can't prevent the taliban from having free rein in Afghanistan.

You want to know why you lost and are losing now---that started the moment when you made that alliance with that local militia.

Nothing has been "lost" in Afghanistan. We're only seeing an ongoing game of whack-a-mole because of the safe haven you are allowing them to have in NW Pakistan -- the one we're debating here.

Five years in NW Pakistan, essentially unmolested, has worked out just swell for the Taliban and AQ; but not so much for the poor Afghans who live in the border region.

Those afghans don't want anything to do with the Taliban, or AQ; but people like you, and 1EZduzit, continue to allow them to suffer. People like you are condemning the border region to a never-ending life of brutality and horror.

The rest of Afghanistan will be just fine -- but those near the border will never taste freedom, education, or prosperity, because you, and other poosies like you, continue having it your way -- you are the reason the Taliban and AQ still exist in that region!

Good job! Im sure they appreciate it very much! :thumbsup:

douchebags...

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The palehorse74 brag is the following---We were able to clear out the entire country of Afghanistan, in less than six months, with less than 100 SOF troops, a local militia, and USAF support. We could certainly do the same in NW Pakistan, if poosies like you would let us do so.

And here you are five years later with far more troops and you poosies can't prevent the taliban from having free rein in Afghanistan.

You want to know why you lost and are losing now---that started the moment when you made that alliance with that local militia.

Nothing has been "lost" in Afghanistan. We're only seeing an ongoing game of whack-a-mole because of the safe haven you are allowing them to have in NW Pakistan -- the one we're debating here.

Five years in NW Pakistan, essentially unmolested, has worked out just swell for AQ; but not so much for the poor Afghans who live in the border region.

Those afghans don't want anything to do with the Taliban, or AQ; but people like you, and 1EZduzit, continue to allow them to suffer. People like you are condemning the border region to a never-ending life of brutality and horror.

The rest of Afghanistan will be just fine -- but those near the border will never taste freedom, education, or prosperity, because you, and other poosies like you, continue having it your way -- you are the reason the Taliban and AQ still exist in that region!

Good job! Im sure they appreciate it very much! :thumbsup:

douchebags...

Sad isn't it?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The palehorse74 brag is the following---We were able to clear out the entire country of Afghanistan, in less than six months, with less than 100 SOF troops, a local militia, and USAF support. We could certainly do the same in NW Pakistan, if poosies like you would let us do so.

And here you are five years later with far more troops and you poosies can't prevent the taliban from having free rein in Afghanistan.

You want to know why you lost and are losing now---that started the moment when you made that alliance with that local militia.

Nothing has been "lost" in Afghanistan. We're only seeing an ongoing game of whack-a-mole because of the safe haven you are allowing them to have in NW Pakistan -- the one we're debating here.

Five years in NW Pakistan, essentially unmolested, has worked out just swell for AQ; but not so much for the poor Afghans who live in the border region.

Those afghans don't want anything to do with the Taliban, or AQ; but people like you, and 1EZduzit, continue to allow them to suffer. People like you are condemning the border region to a never-ending life of brutality and horror.

The rest of Afghanistan will be just fine -- but those near the border will never taste freedom, education, or prosperity, because you, and other poosies like you, continue having it your way -- you are the reason the Taliban and AQ still exist in that region!

Good job! Im sure they appreciate it very much! :thumbsup:

douchebags...

Sad isn't it?

It's worse than sad, it's fvcking criminal!

EDIT: Unlike LL, and his cabal of pacifist douchebags, I have to actually look the people of the region in the eye when I tell them "Sorry, we can't help you."

When? Well, every so often, a tribesman will travel from the frontier region to one of the US bases along the Afghan border -- usually an older teenage boy sent by an elder. When they arrive, they ask to speak to someone who can help. Sometimes, that "someone" is me. Unfortunately, even though they give us everything we'd need to take out an important target, the best I can tell them is "maybe the Pakistani government will help you -- we are not allowed into Pakistan."

The look in their eyes tells me everything I need to know. They essentially, on the spot, realize that their villages will never be free from the Taliban. Their daughters will continue to get raped, and their mothers will continue to get shot. Their fathers will likely die somewhere along the way, and they will be left with no choice in the matter, so they will eventually join the Taliban themselves, or die. Then, they too can live a life of rape, murder, oppression... and death.

This is the decision Lemon Law and 1EZ are making from the safety of their chess boards and keyboards. This is the "life" they are giving the Afghans on the border when they prevent us from going in to destroy the Taliban.

Like I said, allowing the Taliban and AQ to live and prosper, anywhere on earth, is a fvcking crime. period.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: magomago
We don't have to go back far (what...50 years?) to see that we did try to do this. Of course WE changed things on our OWN without having to have anyone else interfere in our affairs.

One thing I've learned is that it we should not care about how others want to live their lives. Let the Pakistani people sort out their own situations.

If WMDs weren't in the picture, I'd totally agree. If there wasn't a track record of Islamic Supremacists attacking us, if there wasn't immigration and spread of those values here on our soil - yeah, I wouldn't care less.

So let us start with one thing, opposing the spread of the radicalization here on our soil and doing everything to condemn it, instead of tolerating it. Islam and its Supremacists can be separated, but very few voices indeed seem to care about that.

Instead we hear the same dogma of tolerating all of it, of leaving it alone.

Pakistan however is VERY symbolic of the problem we face across the globe. So I will repeat myself to get this point across. The Supremacists purge the Moderates, when will the Moderates purge the Supremacists? They don't, and that is the entire problem.

 

[MadRat]

Wars are won by pacifying an area one prince at a time. Now that the elders are dead, younger more maulleable minds will reign. The elders just were too stubborn.

I'm thinking the U.S. is sending some tough messages here to the whole Taliban establishment with these moves in the past ten days.

 

[Lemon law]

palehorse74, do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound when you say---Their daughters will continue to get raped, and their mothers will continue to get shot. Their fathers will likely die somewhere along the way, and they will be left with no choice in the matter, so they will eventually join the Taliban themselves, or die. Then, they too can live a life of rape, murder, oppression... and death.

And after that the surviving son will cheerfully join the taliban????????????????

Its a good tearjerker, but the fact is that the taliban is freely operating way inside Afghanistan and if those villagers saw them as a bigger threat than you people are,
the taliban would not get an inch into Afghanistan before they would be finked out and you would get the intel to take them out.

At least MadRat has a clue with---Wars are won by pacifying an area one prince at a time.

You may think you pacified an area by installing the Northern alliance as the war lord thugs, but the fact is you have not. Now 90% of the Afghani people are caught between US troops, the Taliban, and war lord thugs.

I have heard better excuse from Vietnam and you poosies ain't learned a damn thing since.
When you can start to be a benefit to the Afghani people you will win, the fact that the taliban can filter right through you people tells it all. Bottom line simple fact, it can only mean that for the Afghani people you are a liability and you will never win as long as that is true. When you can make yourself a net asset, the taliban can mass any amount of insurgents in Pakistan and it would not help them a bit in Afghanistan.

So I think we are all tired of you making excuses, you have an area of operation, do your job in Afghanistan and the rest will take care of itself. And lose the its all about the troops stuff, its all about winning the hearts and minds of the Afghani people.

And the fact is you have not, and if you can't, how do you expect to win the hearts and minds of the Pakistanis? Do you have any idea what they lost in relying on your bunch of poosies and after five full years you can't even get Afghanistan up to the level it was when the Northern alliance chased out the taliban?

Get a clue, this whole mess is a political problem and people like you still think its only a military problem.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
We're only seeing an ongoing game of whack-a-mole because of the safe haven you are allowing them to have in NW Pakistan -- the one we're debating here.

Oh please. What a bunch of bunk.

They've been in Pakistan for years now. Until recently there hasn't even been real talk of going in there.

And even now, Bush would have more support if he didn't put on his cowboy hat and invade Iraq which had absolutely nothing to do with AQ nor the "war on terror."

Bottom line is, we have no more moral authority, and no more sympathy from the rest of the world because of Bush and his looking into the mirror and seeing John Wayne.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Well gee, that's nice. The problem you plan, Ace, is that it's not just Pakistanis who are suffering AQ's attacks, .

The problem with your plan is you just don't go around violating a country's soverignity at will. That will only make the problem worse.

"at will"?!? The Paks have had five fvcking years to take care of the problem for us! There comes a time when enough is enough, and we take care of the issue ourselves!

I don't see why we can't handle the terrorists when they come into Afghanistan.

So, sitting back on our butts and playing a never-ending game of whack-a-mole, along several hundred miles of the world's roughest terrain, is your idea of a plan?!

We set goals for our invasion of Afghanistan and I guess our leaders got bored with doing the job right. Now someone is going to have to convince me that Pakistan can't handle it's own terrorists.

Pakistan is NOT handling them, and if five years of AQ's consistent, unhindered growth doesn't convince you, then nothing ever will.

I don't see the risk in expanding the conflict into yet another country being worth the reward.

I can understand how/why the Iraq campaign has tainted your views a bit, but nobody is asking for a conventional invasion of Pakistan.

We were able to clear out the entire country of Afghanistan, in less than six months, with less than 100 SOF troops, a local militia, and USAF support. We could certainly do the same in NW Pakistan, but only if overly pacifist poosies like you would let us do so.

Like I said, knowingly allowing AQ to heal, arm, train, plot, and stage attacks from NW Pakistan is a g'damn crime -- and anyone who advocates doing so, indefinitely, is an idiot -- or an AQ supporter...?

What kind of idiot are you? If you expect a country to respect your borders you had damn well better respect theirs.

If that's too inconvient for you then get the hell out of the military and quit acting like anybody who disagrees with your POV is a traitor or terrorist sympathizer. You are doing the military a disservice by parading around here as a supposed inteligence officer when your really just a punk-ass know-it-all.

You just follow the orders given you by your superiors and suck it up sonny boy. This country doesn't exist to support the military, the military exists to support this country.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
palehorse74, do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound when you say---Their daughters will continue to get raped, and their mothers will continue to get shot. Their fathers will likely die somewhere along the way, and they will be left with no choice in the matter, so they will eventually join the Taliban themselves, or die. Then, they too can live a life of rape, murder, oppression... and death.

And after that the surviving son will cheerfully join the taliban????????????????

Its a good tearjerker, but the fact is that the taliban is freely operating way inside Afghanistan and if those villagers saw them as a bigger threat than you people are,
the taliban would not get an inch into Afghanistan before they would be finked out and you would get the intel to take them out.

At least MadRat has a clue with---Wars are won by pacifying an area one prince at a time.

You may think you pacified an area by installing the Northern alliance as the war lord thugs, but the fact is you have not. Now 90% of the Afghani people are caught between US troops, the Taliban, and war lord thugs.

I have heard better excuse from Vietnam and you poosies ain't learned a damn thing since.
When you can start to be a benefit to the Afghani people you will win, the fact that the taliban can filter right through you people tells it all. Bottom line simple fact, it can only mean that for the Afghani people you are a liability and you will never win as long as that is true. When you can make yourself a net asset, the taliban can mass any amount of insurgents in Pakistan and it would not help them a bit in Afghanistan.

So I think we are all tired of you making excuses, you have an area of operation, do your job in Afghanistan and the rest will take care of itself. And lose the its all about the troops stuff, its all about winning the hearts and minds of the Afghani people.

And the fact is you have not, and if you can't, how do you expect to win the hearts and minds of the Pakistanis? Do you have any idea what they lost in relying on your bunch of poosies and after five full years you can't even get Afghanistan up to the level it was when the Northern alliance chased out the taliban?

Get a clue, this whole mess is a political problem and people like you still think its only a military problem.

Not one statement in your entire reply is accurate.. not one! You have never been correct in anything you have ever written on the subject of Afghanistan.

You, and others like you, are the reason AQ and the Taliban still exist in that region at all. You are their biggest supporter and most avid defender! If it weren't for you, NW Pakistan would have been cleared years ago -- long before they became a major factor in Pakistan's stability.

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: palehorse74
We're only seeing an ongoing game of whack-a-mole because of the safe haven you are allowing them to have in NW Pakistan -- the one we're debating here.

Oh please. What a bunch of bunk.

They've been in Pakistan for years now. Until recently there hasn't even been real talk of going in there.

That's incorrect. Soldiers, such as myself, have been advocating SOF operations in NW Pakistan since October 2001. You can probably blame Bush. He distracted everyone with a strategic shift to Iraq; but, people like me have been advocating ops in NW Pakistan all along.

And even now, Bush would have more support if he didn't put on his cowboy hat and invade Iraq which had absolutely nothing to do with AQ nor the "war on terror."

/agreed. You seem to have answered yourself. good work!

Bottom line is, we have no more moral authority, and no more sympathy from the rest of the world because of Bush and his looking into the mirror and seeing John Wayne.

So we should just let the Taliban and AQ operate in NW Pakistan indefinitely?

Thank gawd Obama, and other candidates, are smart enough to realize that we may need to finish the work in Pakistan sometime soon! Thank gawd they're not as ignorant as Lemon, and others here, who actually advocate doing nothing.

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
What kind of idiot are you? If you expect a country to respect your borders you had damn well better respect theirs.

If that's too inconvient for you then get the hell out of the military and quit acting like anybody who disagrees with your POV is a traitor or terrorist sympathizer. You are doing the military a disservice by parading around here as a supposed inteligence officer when your really just a punk-ass know-it-all.

You just follow the orders given you by your superiors and suck it up sonny boy. This country doesn't exist to support the military, the military exists to support this country.

You may not be a "sympathizer," or a "supporter," but people like you are certainly the reason we haven't gone into NW Pakistan for five years -- therefore, it's accurate to say that the rebuilding and recuperation of AQ and the Taliban, in NW Pakistan, is partyly your fault.

Like I said above, thank gawd some of our elected leaders are starting to ignore folks like you. Hopefully, our SOF will soon get the green light to wipe out AQ and the Taliban once and for all!

Nothing would make me, and more than likely every other Afghan veteran, happier! It's a move that is longggg overdue.

 

[palehorse]

For those of you who oppose NATO and/or Afghan forces entering NW Pakistan to destroy the Taliban and AQ, I have one question for you:

How do you guys feel about Turkey crossing international borders to destroy the PKK?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
For those of you who oppose NATO and/or Afghan forces entering NW Pakistan to destroy the Taliban and AQ, I have one question for you:

How do you guys feel about Turkey crossing international borders to destroy the PKK?

How do you feel about the invasion of illegals into our own country?

Either you respect soverign borders or you don't. You don't just get to pick and choose without asking. That's a big reason why the civilian goverment is in charge of the military oin the first place.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74
For those of you who oppose NATO and/or Afghan forces entering NW Pakistan to destroy the Taliban and AQ, I have one question for you:

How do you guys feel about Turkey crossing international borders to destroy the PKK?

How do you feel about the invasion of illegals into our own country?

Either you respect soverign borders or you don't. You don't just get to pick and choose without asking. That's a big reason why the civilian goverment is in charge of the military oin the first place.

What's with the illegal immigration strawman bullsh*t?! Are you seriously comparing illegal mexican immigrants to international terrorists?

And you didn't answer the g'damn question either.

You're too fvcking predictible.

sad.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74
For those of you who oppose NATO and/or Afghan forces entering NW Pakistan to destroy the Taliban and AQ, I have one question for you:

How do you guys feel about Turkey crossing international borders to destroy the PKK?

How do you feel about the invasion of illegals into our own country?

Either you respect soverign borders or you don't. You don't just get to pick and choose without asking. That's a big reason why the civilian goverment is in charge of the military oin the first place.

What's with the illegal immigration strawman bullsh*t?! Are you seriously comparing illegal mexican immigrants to international terrorists?

And you didn't answer the g'damn question either.

You're too fvcking predictible.

sad.

I should have know that if you can't just point the gun and pull the trigger then it'd probably be too complicated of an abstraction for you to grasp. Any idiot can see that if we let the military do whatever their little hearts desired it would make their job easier. That doesn't mean we should.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74
For those of you who oppose NATO and/or Afghan forces entering NW Pakistan to destroy the Taliban and AQ, I have one question for you:

How do you guys feel about Turkey crossing international borders to destroy the PKK?

How do you feel about the invasion of illegals into our own country?

Either you respect soverign borders or you don't. You don't just get to pick and choose without asking. That's a big reason why the civilian goverment is in charge of the military oin the first place.

What's with the illegal immigration strawman bullsh*t?! Are you seriously comparing illegal mexican immigrants to international terrorists?

And you didn't answer the g'damn question either.

You're too fvcking predictible.

sad.

I should have know that if you can't just point the gun and pull the trigger then it'd probably be too complicated of an abstraction for you to grasp. Any idiot can see that if we let the military do whatever their little hearts desired it would make their job easier. That doesn't mean we should.

What you wrote wasn't some profound abstraction at all, it was merely an idiotic and irrelevant distraction.

Thankfully, smarter men than you, like Obama, know that this isn't just some simple military fantasy. Real terrorists are staging in NW Pakistan, completely unhindered, and there is no excuse for that - none.

And you still haven't answered my fvcking question about Turkey and the PKK. Shocker.