Pakistan tribal elders shot dead

[Lemon law]

It is somewhat of a palehorse74 irony.

In Pakistan its the Pakistani army that palehorse74 is saying is either unwilling or unable to do its job of catching AQ or taliban on its own soil. As if bailing the USA's butt out in Afghanistan is something the Pakistanis should do. But in the whole mess, the Pakistani army is portrayed as incompetent by palehorse74

Yet in Northern Iraq, its the US army that is either unwilling or unable to go after PKK Gorillas who operate in Iraqi territory's under the charge of the US occupation. And for years the Turk's suffered cross border raids from the PKK while the Turks begged Washington to go after the PKK. And under international law its the clear RESPONSIBILITY of the US to control the PKK. And now that its become a huge political issue in Turkey, the Turks are taking the the job the US army is unwilling or unable to do and Washington has no choice but to allow the Turks to. WHICH NO MATTER HOW YOU CUT IS AN ADMISSION USA IS MILITARILY INCOMPETENT IN IRAQ. Yet palehorse74 forgets to admit the US army in Iraq is incompetent. Yet the same army in Afghanistan unable to control its side of the border is superbly competent because palehorse74 thinking is in charge.

But a good part of the problem in Afghanistan is not Pakistani army incompetence, its an unwillingness to bail your butts out. First, the USA chased the taliban into their country where they don't do all that much harm, then you want them to into expensive and fatal encounters with the taliban and AQ, and why should they??????????????

Then if the Pakistani's allow the US army to operate on Pakistani soil, its a explosive admission of weakness by the Pakistani army that they are somewhat incompetent. And that
Musarrif is very reluctant to do.

Its already been established which army is incompetent palehorse74.

And if your thinking was correct palehorse74, I would not be wasting my time casting peals of wisdom before swine because Afghanistan would be in much better shape than it is now. And would be a land where AQ or taliban operatives fear to thread. Opium production would have been stamped out years ago.

Palehorse74, you remind me a lot of GWB&co., long on slogans and promises, long on excuses, always a day late and a dollar short on competent planning, and very very short on results. But you want to be in total charge and you will not listen to anyone but yourself.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74
For those of you who oppose NATO and/or Afghan forces entering NW Pakistan to destroy the Taliban and AQ, I have one question for you:

How do you guys feel about Turkey crossing international borders to destroy the PKK?

How do you feel about the invasion of illegals into our own country?

Either you respect soverign borders or you don't. You don't just get to pick and choose without asking. That's a big reason why the civilian goverment is in charge of the military oin the first place.

What's with the illegal immigration strawman bullsh*t?! Are you seriously comparing illegal mexican immigrants to international terrorists?

And you didn't answer the g'damn question either.

You're too fvcking predictible.

sad.

I should have know that if you can't just point the gun and pull the trigger then it'd probably be too complicated of an abstraction for you to grasp. Any idiot can see that if we let the military do whatever their little hearts desired it would make their job easier. That doesn't mean we should.

What you wrote wasn't some profound abstraction at all, it was merely an idiotic and irrelevant distraction.

Thankfully, smarter men than you, like Obama, know that this isn't just some simple military fantasy. Real terrorists are staging in NW Pakistan, completely unhindered, and there is no excuse for that - none.

And you still haven't answered my fvcking question about Turkey and the PKK. Shocker.

Your question isn't relevant because Turkey borders Iraq but the USA doesn't border Pakistan. Your the one with a strawman argument. You just want to pick and chose which laws you want to apply and which you don't. Sorry but this country shouldn't do things that way and after Iraq I would think you'd have that figured out.

If we really need to go into Pakistan then we need to persuade the Pakistanis to give us there permission, otherwise it could be considered an act of war. Do you really want to give the terrorist recruiters more ammo?

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: MadRat
Wars are won by pacifying an area one prince at a time. Now that the elders are dead, younger more maulleable minds will reign. The elders just were too stubborn.

I'm thinking the U.S. is sending some tough messages here to the whole Taliban establishment with these moves in the past ten days.

Who the hell do you think killed them?

Gunmen in Pakistan have shot dead eight pro-government tribal leaders in the troubled South Waziristan region on Afghanistan's border, officials say.

[...]

The region has been at the centre of fighting between the army and the militants in recent months.

The dead guys are the ones who stood against the Supremacist groups. The message is clear, and it isn't in our favor. They will be replaced indeed, by our enemy.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Your question isn't relevant because Turkey borders Iraq but the USA doesn't border Pakistan.

Using that logic, would you support the ANA entering Pakistan to hit AQ and the Taliban while using target packages developed by NATO collectors?

Your [sic] the one with a strawman argument.

This from the guy who compared illegal Mexican immigrants to the US going after known terrorists in NW Pakistan? LAWL!

You just want to pick and chose which laws you want to apply and which you don't. Sorry but this country shouldn't do things that way and after Iraq I would think you'd have that figured out.

What does going after AQ and the Taliban, two sworn enemies of the United States, have to do with picking and choosing which laws to follow!? Didn't we swear that we'd follow AQ to the ends of the Earth if we had to!? When did it become OK to let them stage and thrive anywhere in the world?!

Why the FVCK did we let assh0les like you stop us from properly wiping them out in the first place!?

bah...

If we really need to go into Pakistan then we need to persuade the Pakistanis to give us there permission, otherwise it could be considered an act of war. Do you really want to give the terrorist recruiters more ammo?

No, but I'd sure as hell like to rid them of their safe haven that people like you have allowed them to stage in.

I see you'd rather support them. For some demented and twisted reason of your own, you would like to see them harass Afghanistan and Islamabad for the next century, or longer. The plight of the Afghans near the border doesnt interest, or bother you, in the least; and you'd just as well watch American Idol than worry about the Taliban raping and murdering 10-year old girls for fun.

Don't worry, we get it... It's all clear to us now... you and LL are thoughtless clueless chumps.

 

[MadRat]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
The dead guys are the ones who stood against the Supremacist groups. The message is clear, and it isn't in our favor. They will be replaced indeed, by our enemy.

You have to remember that these people lived in relatively stable areas because both the nato troops had security in the areas around their territories and they themselves had approved militias to keep the peace and protect themselves from this very problem. These were not just assassinations, these were brazen drive up in the middle of the day style of murders intended by the killers to send messages to their people. (It really doesn't matter who pulled the trigger, the importance is the message was delivered.) Because they could not "help" themselves be safe from incursion even in broad daylight they will now have to willingly participate in security with nato. It worked in Baghdad for the U.S. troops to persuade sunnis to cooperate. It will work there, too, for similar reasons.

These developments are raw power plays. They are not simple 1+1=2 math equations. But they do have relatively predictable patterns and outcomes.

 

[Lemon law]

Palehorse74, when are you going to learn that you can kill people but you can't kill ideas
or ideals. The US must share much of the guilt in creating Al-Quida and spreading its appeal.
The more aggressive the US is, the more the Al-Quida recruiting centers fill.

You are essentially asserting a divine right to go anywhere in the world and kill people you don't like. Sadly, no matter how effective you are as a killing machine, you are creating more terrorists than you kill. Bottom line, thats a damning truth, and it seems something you seem unable to grasp.

To some extent, if you have this strange and stupid desire to run and jump off the nearest cliff like a bunch of lemmings, its should be your right to do so, but when its my taxpayer money, ITS AN OH NO YOU DON'T.

We have been there and done that with mission creep in Vietnam, it did not work then and it won't work now.

KEEP YOUR BOOTS OUT OF PAKISTAN WITHOUT EXPRESS PAKISTANI PERMISSION.

You have created too many terrorists as it is.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Don't worry, we get it... It's all clear to us now... you and LL are thoughtless clueless chumps.

What's becoming clear to everybody is that if people like you can't fuck it, eat it, or kill it then your the "thoughtless, clueless chump".

The American taxpayer has better things to do with it's money then fund a military that can't seem to get the job done with the best equipment/weapons/support in the entire world. The military is a bureaucracy and in this war it has expanded to fill whatever budget allowed for it.... and then some. It has pushed our rule of law to and beyond it's limits and people like you say it's not enough. I say the people and taxpayers have had enough of that crap. We need results, not excuses and insults.

No torture and no attacking inside Pakistan (without that govements blessing). Those are our laws, and your orders are to obey our laws, live with it and quit PRETENDING to be such a tough guy/patriot. If you really were what your pretending to be you would be able to catch a few terrorist on foot.

/thread

 

[Lemon law]

We do have to understand that excuses for lack of performance is required. And given the American military is about a thousand times better equipped and trained than AQ or the taliban, that failure to catch a few guys in foot does become rather glaring. And as palehorse74 and JOS graphically describe how vicious AQ and the taliban, they are missing in action when it comes time explain why the Afghani people still prefer AQ and the taliban over the US military. And on both sides of the Afghani and Pakistani border, the taliban is now ruling political entities as large as medium sized cities with no apparent problems. And the way Palehorse and JOS describe it, one would think the press would be all over it as all them raped girls and dead bodies pile up as resident flee screaming from those areas.

One thing is clear, either the international press reports are totally distorted or palehorse and JOS are stretching the truth on this forum.

But at least Palehorse and JOS have a ready made excuse with blame Pakistan for all their failures.

The poor damn soldiers in Iraq don't have anyone to blame. They tried the blame it on Iran but that won't really fly, they can't blame it on The Iraqi people not being ready for democracy because GWB said we were bringing them democracy and GWB would not say that if they were not ready, they can't blame it on Saddam because they hung his butt, and they can't blame it on AQ because they overstayed their welcome.

So it degenerates to the same old arguments. Some segments of the American people have to wait until the American military gets caught in a quagmire before we are even listened to
and we always say the same basic thing. That we are losing because the command structure of the US military are a bunch of arrogant prigs who alienate the very people they already dominate militarily. And unless these arrogant prigs win the hearts of minds of those they already dominate they will lose the peace.

And in turn we get called ignorant idiots as the arrogant prigs in the military make it unanimous by alienating everyone at home and abroad with their escalating cock and bull stories of light at the end of the tunnel and how much those occupied people really want us to stay when the polls say a good 80% want us gone yesterday. Finally at some later date, with a noxious combination of lack of results and world condemnation, some US politician finally has the sense to end the fiasco, but only after too many people are killed and too much of our national treasure and pride is squandered.

Isn't there a way to shorten this process? So that we get out of a losing game faster? Or even restore the Powell doctrine and not get into unnecessary messes in the first place.

Or maybe we could try something totally novel and almost UNPRECEDENTED in recent US history. Get rid of arrogant military prigs like palehorse, figure out how to win the hearts and minds of the occupied peoples which becomes easier without arrogant prigs, and then we would not need to hear the excuses because excuses are only needed with failure.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
And as palehorse74 and JOS graphically describe how vicious AQ and the taliban, they are missing in action when it comes time explain why the Afghani people still prefer AQ and the taliban over the US military.

That's 100% grade-A bullsh*t of the highest order, and you are starting to really fvcking irritate me with your complete and total ignorance of all things Afghanistan...

I have explained this to you at least a dozen times, but you're too fvcking out of touch to listen, or you're too damn dumb to understand.

None of "the Afghan people prefer AQ and the Taliban over the US military." NONE!.

Those who live under Taliban or AQ rule do so simply because we do not have access to them for more than 363 days a year! Most of the remote areas where the Taliban has had success are places we cannot get to during nine months of the year, and during the three months we CAN get to their villages, we might stop by any one village once or twice during the summer.

When we arrive, the Afghans greet us with open arms and look to us as saviors, but we're unable to do much more than give them a few batteries, a satelite phone, and a promise that we'll try to come running if/when the Taliban come back through.

Most of those villages are at least 8-12 hours, by vehicle, from any FOB. Afghanistan has exactly ONE "highway" that is two lanes wide, with the main portion stretching from Kabul to Kandahar. Along that road, to reach the border, one must turn off onto dirt paths and drive for at least 6-10 hours. These "paths" are closed nine months of the year due to several FEET of mud, snow, and ice.

That said, I have never met a single average Afghan citizen who does not completely despise the Taliban. The problem is that the Taliban has influence over them, by threats of violence, for 363 days of the year. While we arrive promising aid or assistance to them if/when they are in need, the Taliban comes in, rapes a few girls, shoots a few elders, and then tells them that if they are ever seen talking to Karzai or American forces, the Taliban will return and wipe out their entire village!!

The Taliban also pass quickyl through large regions on motorcycle. In every village, they stop and leave "night letters" for the elders to read in the morning. These letters contain the same threats, and are often left in ANY village we previously helped in some way, shape, or form.

So, if YOU were a g'damn Afghan farmer, what would YOU do when the Americans pass through? Well, I can tell you what they do: they very quickly ask us to leave. When we ask why, the answer is always the same: "We would love to be friends, but the Taliban will kill us all if we ever work with you."

To which, we always respond "Well, where are the Taliban?"

Most often, the farmers simply don't know. Like us, the appearance of the Taliban in the villages is entirely random and unplanned. They never know when they will arrive, and they never know when they are being watched. They simply cant help but turn their backs on us, and pray they weren't seen speaking to us.

But trust me, not a SINGLE ONE of them "prefers AQ and the Taliban." NOT ONE! The looks in their eyes is one of complete defeat. They would love to love us, but they just cant afford to do so given our limited abilities to protect them.

So.... in summary.

We simply dont have the access we need. 50,000 miles of paved roads would solve that problem, so it's people like YOU, Mr. Diplomacy and Economic Aid, who have completely dropped the fcking ball.

The other problem, and the reason that ANY of this is still an issue, AT ALL, is because people like YOU, Mr. Respect-their-borders, won't let us take out the known AQ and Taliban safe havens all along the border.

So which one of us needs to make the fvcking excuses again?

And on both sides of the Afghani and Pakistani border, the taliban is now ruling political entities as large as medium sized cities with no apparent problems. And the way Palehorse and JOS describe it, one would think the press would be all over it as all them raped girls and dead bodies pile up as resident flee screaming from those areas.

Press do not have ANY access to their havens. NONE. The atrocities being commited throughout the NW Frontier, on a daily basis, would make you lose your mind. The compounding sadness you would feel, IF you actually knew wtf you were talking about, would have you chomping at the bit just as much as our military.

You have absolutely no fvcking idea. Seriously.

One thing is clear, either the international press reports are totally distorted or palehorse and JOS are stretching the truth on this forum.

But at least Palehorse and JOS have a ready made excuse with blame Pakistan for all their failures.

I do not have any desire to play The Blame Game -- that's your gig. Instead, I just want to finish what we started, and there is simply no excuse for allowing AQ and the Taliban to live on unmolested anywhere in the world. period.

The poor damn soldiers in Iraq don't have anyone to blame. They tried the blame it on Iran but that won't really fly, they can't blame it on The Iraqi people not being ready for democracy because GWB said we were bringing them democracy and GWB would not say that if they were not ready, they can't blame it on Saddam because they hung his butt, and they can't blame it on AQ because they overstayed their welcome.

I've never seen or heard any "damn soldiers" trying to "blame" anyone, for anything, in Iraq. That is a purely political act, and playing those games is a waste of time.

Secondarily, this thread is NOT about Iraq, insurgencies, or any other subject -- it's about Al Qaeda and the Taliban, two sworn enemies of the United States. It's about bringing justice to those who have declared war on, and violenty hit the West, on hundreds of occasions. It's about capturing and/or killing bonafied international criminals.

So it degenerates to the same old arguments. Some segments of the American people have to wait until the American military gets caught in a quagmire before we are even listened to and we always say the same basic thing. That we are losing because the command structure of the US military are a bunch of arrogant prigs who alienate the very people they already dominate militarily. And unless these arrogant prigs win the hearts of minds of those they already dominate they will lose the peace.

That is so far removed from the situation in Afghanistan that I'm beginning to think you're dillusional. I've not seen those arguments being made, concerning Afghanistan, by anyone.

Where do you come up with that sh*t? Our problem in Afghanistan has been the same since 2002, and that is our not being allowed to properly close with, and destroy, our enemies in the NW Frontier of Pakistan.

Fix that (and add some roads), and the "war" will be won. Sit back, do nothing, as you have been, and we'll be there playing whack-a-mole forever...

And in turn we get called ignorant idiots as the arrogant prigs in the military make it unanimous by alienating everyone at home and abroad with their escalating cock and bull stories of light at the end of the tunnel and how much those occupied people really want us to stay when the polls say a good 80% want us gone yesterday.

Finally at some later date, with a noxious combination of lack of results and world condemnation, some US politician finally has the sense to end the fiasco, but only after too many people are killed and too much of our national treasure and pride is squandered.

Polls? 80%? Iraq perhaps?

We're discussing Afghanistan you ignorant fvck! You have consistently conflated the two, for months now. You need to wake up and realize that the strategic and tactical situations are dramatically different in each theater.

Pull your head out of your arse and stick to the topic of this thread. Please and thank you.

Isn't there a way to shorten this process? So that we get out of a losing game faster?

1. It's not a "losing game"
2. I've explained to you what it will take to "win" and bring the majority of our troops home from Afghanistan. Do with it what you will.

Or even restore the Powell doctrine and not get into unnecessary messes in the first place.

That would be the "Please folks, there is nothing to see here. 3000 people didnt just die, and no towers were blown out of the sky. Please move along" approach!?!?

We had every right and reason to enter Afghanistan and destroy the Taliban and AQ. Thankfully, most of the rest of the educated world knows and understands that point. What should we have done instead? Continued to ignore them?

Remember, I'm only speaking about AQ and the Taliban in Afghanistan. Try not to conflate the issue with Iraq... kkthx.

Or maybe we could try something totally novel and almost UNPRECEDENTED in recent US history. Get rid of arrogant military prigs like palehorse, figure out how to win the hearts and minds of the occupied peoples which becomes easier without arrogant prigs, and then we would not need to hear the excuses because excuses are only needed with failure.

"arrogant military prigs"... is that a phrase you'd use to describe any/all members of the military who oppose your pacifistic worldview? Is that the phrase you'd use to describe anyone and everyone who agrees that we must go after, and destroy, Al Qaeda?

There's a lot of us who recognize what needs to happen, including some of the better Presidential candidates, so good fvcking luck!

(GO OBAMA!!!)

 

[1EZduzit]

You forgot to say "Rumplestiltskin, Rumplestiltskin, Rumplestiltskin.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
You forgot to say "Rumplestiltskin, Rumplestiltskin, Rumplestiltskin.

??

Please show some respect and read my last post in its entirety. There are details in there tha you really need to hear...

 

[event8horizon]

so palehorse-
tell me what u and your buddies in the military think about the israeli spy ring that got busted here in the states. have u read the gerald shea memo detailing where the members of the spy ring lived in relation to the hijackers?? a must read for anyone.

http://video.google.com/videop...&type=search&plindex=0

and the memo-

http://www.antiwar.com/rep2/Me...lectCommitteesbold.pdf

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: event8horizon
so palehorse-
tell me what u and your buddies in the military think about the israeli spy ring that got busted here in the states. have u read the gerald shea memo detailing where the members of the spy ring lived in relation to the hijackers?? a must read for anyone.

http://video.google.com/videop...&type=search&plindex=0

and the memo-

http://www.antiwar.com/rep2/Me...lectCommitteesbold.pdf

oh boy... :roll:

 

[event8horizon]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: event8horizon
so palehorse-
tell me what u and your buddies in the military think about the israeli spy ring that got busted here in the states. have u read the gerald shea memo detailing where the members of the spy ring lived in relation to the hijackers?? a must read for anyone.

http://video.google.com/videop...&type=search&plindex=0

and the memo-

http://www.antiwar.com/rep2/Me...lectCommitteesbold.pdf

oh boy... :roll:

speechless......its interesting how the media has suppressed this info considering that one (if not some) of the guys failed polygraphy tests and that their link to 9-11 is classified. im aware of the saudi angle as well..... what if thses guys were iranians???? holy shit, there would have been an uproar. but israelis.........ahhhhh who cares right??

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: event8horizon

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: event8horizon
so palehorse-
tell me what u and your buddies in the military think about the israeli spy ring that got busted here in the states. have u read the gerald shea memo detailing where the members of the spy ring lived in relation to the hijackers?? a must read for anyone.

http://video.google.com/videop...&type=search&plindex=0

and the memo-

http://www.antiwar.com/rep2/Me...lectCommitteesbold.pdf

oh boy... :roll:

speechless......its interesting how the media has suppressed this info considering that one (if not some) of the guys failed polygraphy tests and that their link to 9-11 is classified. im aware of the saudi angle as well..... what if thses guys were iranians???? holy shit, there would have been an uproar. but israelis.........ahhhhh who cares right??

Listen man, I understand what happens when someone misses their morning meds for several consecutive days... I understand.. I get it... I've seen it on TV before. But, I just don't have the patience, or enough tinfoil, to deal with another 911truther right now.

Please take your party tricks elsewhere and let the grownups continue to discuss real life in this thread about Afghanistan and Pakistan.

kkthxbye.

 

[event8horizon]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: event8horizon

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: event8horizon
so palehorse-
tell me what u and your buddies in the military think about the israeli spy ring that got busted here in the states. have u read the gerald shea memo detailing where the members of the spy ring lived in relation to the hijackers?? a must read for anyone.

http://video.google.com/videop...&type=search&plindex=0

and the memo-

http://www.antiwar.com/rep2/Me...lectCommitteesbold.pdf

oh boy... :roll:

speechless......its interesting how the media has suppressed this info considering that one (if not some) of the guys failed polygraphy tests and that their link to 9-11 is classified. im aware of the saudi angle as well..... what if thses guys were iranians???? holy shit, there would have been an uproar. but israelis.........ahhhhh who cares right??

Listen man, I understand what happens when someone misses their morning meds for several consecutive days... I understand.. I get it... I've seen it on TV before. But, I just don't have the patience, or enough tinfoil, to deal with another 911truther right now.

Please take your party tricks elsewhere and let the grownups continue to discuss real life in this thread about Afghanistan and Pakistan.

kkthxbye.

man o man, your scarred to face reality.....so who is the one that needs their pills (not that i take any)!!!! lol. big bad military boy brainwashed to the stoops of propaganda. are u suffering from a TBI (tramatic brain injury). ok, heres something far more simple. tell me what u and your military boys know about general mahmoud ahmad. u know, musharraf's ex right hand man. tell me about the british national (saeed sheikh- mi6) that he sent down to dubai to send mohammed atta 100,000. always follow the money man. as far as i know, they still dont know where the money came from. how does it feel to be manipulated by the internaitonal intel agencies????

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: bugsysiegel
Ahhh, Islam, the religion of peace.

Because Christianity doesn't have a history of torturing and killing non believers!

Actually it doesnt. If your talking about the crusades, it was actually more of a defensive war than anything else. Ever heard of Thermopylae? Thats where the persians were stopped on thier march to Europe. They tried again later, several times actually. The crusades themselves were more like a counter-attack to the incredible aggresiveness the Europeans faced every time they tried to visit the eastern Mediteranean. They never even tried to settle there, only visit the lands of the bible. Notice European countries set up colonies all over the world, but for the most part left the middle east alone? Basically because the M.E. is full of fanatical psychos and has been for thousands of years. History books are too PC to tell you that The persians/arabs tried repeatedly to attack Europe and Everyone from the ancient greeks to the modern greeks (the most recent war was after our own civil war) fought them off.

 

[Saint Michael]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: bugsysiegel
Ahhh, Islam, the religion of peace.

Because Christianity doesn't have a history of torturing and killing non believers!

Actually it doesnt. If your talking about the crusades, it was actually more of a defensive war than anything else. Ever heard of Thermopylae? Thats where the persians were stopped on thier march to Europe. They tried again later, several times actually. The crusades themselves were more like a counter-attack to the incredible aggresiveness the Europeans faced every time they tried to visit the eastern Mediteranean. They never even tried to settle there, only visit the lands of the bible. Notice European countries set up colonies all over the world, but for the most part left the middle east alone? Basically because the M.E. is full of fanatical psychos and has been for thousands of years. History books are too PC to tell you that The persians/arabs tried repeatedly to attack Europe and Everyone from the ancient greeks to the modern greeks (the most recent war was after our own civil war) fought them off.

Um... hundreds of years of persecution of fellow Europeans through witch-trials and inquisitions should be enough to prove that history is full of Christians persecuting.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: event8horizon

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: event8horizon

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: event8horizon
so palehorse-
tell me what u and your buddies in the military think about the israeli spy ring that got busted here in the states. have u read the gerald shea memo detailing where the members of the spy ring lived in relation to the hijackers?? a must read for anyone.

http://video.google.com/videop...&type=search&plindex=0

and the memo-

http://www.antiwar.com/rep2/Me...lectCommitteesbold.pdf

oh boy... :roll:

speechless......its interesting how the media has suppressed this info considering that one (if not some) of the guys failed polygraphy tests and that their link to 9-11 is classified. im aware of the saudi angle as well..... what if thses guys were iranians???? holy shit, there would have been an uproar. but israelis.........ahhhhh who cares right??

Listen man, I understand what happens when someone misses their morning meds for several consecutive days... I understand.. I get it... I've seen it on TV before. But, I just don't have the patience, or enough tinfoil, to deal with another 911truther right now.

Please take your party tricks elsewhere and let the grownups continue to discuss real life in this thread about Afghanistan and Pakistan.

kkthxbye.

man o man, your scarred to face reality.....so who is the one that needs their pills (not that i take any)!!!! lol. big bad military boy brainwashed to the stoops of propaganda. are u suffering from a TBI (tramatic brain injury). ok, heres something far more simple. tell me what u and your military boys know about general mahmoud ahmad. u know, musharraf's ex right hand man. tell me about the british national (saeed sheikh- mi6) that he sent down to dubai to send mohammed atta 100,000. always follow the money man. as far as i know, they still dont know where the money came from. how does it feel to be manipulated by the internaitonal intel agencies????

LOL! that part, in particular, made me laugh!

 

[ranmaniac]

This thread has been shot dead.

/thread

 

[event8horizon]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: event8horizon

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: event8horizon

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: event8horizon
so palehorse-
tell me what u and your buddies in the military think about the israeli spy ring that got busted here in the states. have u read the gerald shea memo detailing where the members of the spy ring lived in relation to the hijackers?? a must read for anyone.

http://video.google.com/videop...&type=search&plindex=0

and the memo-

http://www.antiwar.com/rep2/Me...lectCommitteesbold.pdf

oh boy... :roll:

speechless......its interesting how the media has suppressed this info considering that one (if not some) of the guys failed polygraphy tests and that their link to 9-11 is classified. im aware of the saudi angle as well..... what if thses guys were iranians???? holy shit, there would have been an uproar. but israelis.........ahhhhh who cares right??

Listen man, I understand what happens when someone misses their morning meds for several consecutive days... I understand.. I get it... I've seen it on TV before. But, I just don't have the patience, or enough tinfoil, to deal with another 911truther right now.

Please take your party tricks elsewhere and let the grownups continue to discuss real life in this thread about Afghanistan and Pakistan.

kkthxbye.

man o man, your scarred to face reality.....so who is the one that needs their pills (not that i take any)!!!! lol. big bad military boy brainwashed to the stoops of propaganda. are u suffering from a TBI (tramatic brain injury). ok, heres something far more simple. tell me what u and your military boys know about general mahmoud ahmad. u know, musharraf's ex right hand man. tell me about the british national (saeed sheikh- mi6) that he sent down to dubai to send mohammed atta 100,000. always follow the money man. as far as i know, they still dont know where the money came from. how does it feel to be manipulated by the internaitonal intel agencies????

LOL! that part, in particular, made me laugh!

why dont u just answer the question??? u can write a page on the taliban but not the leader of the isi that got caught sending money to atta??? your a tool man.

 

[Noobtastic]

Originally posted by: bugsysiegel
Ahhh, Islam, the religion of peace.

:beer:

 

[palehorse]

An interesting peace on the impact of Bhutto's assasination:

After Bhutto?s Murder: A Way Forward for Pakistan (PDF file)
http://www.crisisgroup.org/lib...74_pakistan_bhutto.pdf

VI. CONCLUSION
Bhutto?s assassination has unleashed a wave of anger in a population that is fed up with military rule. Eight years of Musharraf have enfeebled Pakistan?s institutions and allowed Islamic militants to make major gains. Far from being a source of stability, his continued rule would threaten Pakistan?s survival as a coherent state.

It is time for the international community, and particularly the U.S., to reconsider its support for authoritarian rule in Pakistan and recognise that democracy, not an artificially propped-up, defrocked and widely despised general, has the best chance of providing stability and turning back the gains of Islamic extremists.

It is also time for the Pakistani armed forces to recognise that Musharraf?s presidency is seriously undercutting their reputation. If it is to retain its standing in the country and contribute to real stability, the military must turn away from politics in the next crucial weeks and focus on the re-organisation necessary to tackle extremism. International support should be conditional on it doing precisely that.

Only a genuinely democratically-elected government will have the legitimacy to take the difficult steps needed to tackle extremism. There can be no such government ? and thus no stability in Pakistan ? as long as Musharraf remains president.

 

[MadRat]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
None of "the Afghan people prefer AQ and the Taliban over the US military." NONE!.

You obviously lost the argument at this point.

 

[Lemon law]

As a somewhat ironic palehorse74 preface we get---An interesting peace on the impact of Bhutto's assasination:

I usually frown on anyone being the grammar police, but I do believe that should an interesting "piece" as in opinion piece rather than an interesting "peace". But between those two words, there is a giant irony gap between what my view are, what palehorse74's view are, what the views of the author of the opinion piece are, even though I think all genuinely want the final outcome to be PEACE.

And I also have to question why palehorse74 cites the article in the first place, because its largely silent on the central question of this thread which is-------Should or should not the US militarily intervene on Pakistani soil over the objections of Pakistan itself because Pakistan is either unwilling or unable to confront AQ and the Taliban.

And what the article is not silent on is exactly how volatile the political situation is in Pakistan.
But in terms of near terms history, the assassination of Bhutto is the unintended result of more US meddling into Pakistani affairs.

It seems Condi Rice got this brainfart that we should force Musharrif to allow Bhutto back from exile, since Bhutto who is willing to support US military intervention onto Pakistan soil, could also broaden the political base of Musharrif in some sort of power sharing deal. Which would then allow Musharrif to cling to power ensuring Pakistani stability and the US would get its its permission to intervene. Another Rice power play script except quite a few of the major players somehow did not bother to follow the script and the whole show did not go on when the leading lady died and there was no replacement "a star is born" broadway show theme happy ending. And further screw things up, we now have this other former PM Sharif
running around complicating things even though he is too corrupt to get any real support.

But we are still left with the central thread question.

I and others say we should not militarily intervene in Pakistan because it will make things worse.

Other people think such an intervention will make things better.

Ultimately its a binary yes no cross the Rubicorn or hold back with no compromise possible.

And it may well be an domestic election issue for 11/2008.