Pakistani Coalition parties oppose use of force in Fata

[The Green Bean]

Bomb blast near Pakistani consulate in Afghan city HERAT, Afghanistan, July 31 (AFP) A small bomb exploded Thursday near Pakistan's consulate in Afghanistan's western city of Herat, injuring a policeman and a woman, police said. The bomb, attached to a bicycle, appeared to have been detonated remotely, deputy city police chief Ghulam Sarwar Haidary told AFP. ?A bomb placed on a bicycle exploded near the Pakistan consulate. One policeman, guarding the consulate, and a woman passer-by were wounded,? the official said. The bomb caused little damage, blowing out some windows nearby. It was not known who was behind the blast and there was no immediate claim of responsibility. (Posted @ 15:05 PST)

Pakistan summons Afghan envoy over consulate blast ISLAMABAD, July 31 (AFP): Pakistan said Thursday it had summoned the Afghan ambassador to the foreign office to convey ?grave concerns? over a bombing outside the Pakistani consulate in the western Afghan city of Herat. Afghan authorities said a policeman and a woman were wounded when a small bomb attached to a bicycle was remotely detonated Thursday near the consulate building. ?The government of Pakistan condemns the bomb explosion outside its consulate in Herat,? the foreign ministry said in a statement. ?The ambassador of Afghanistan is being summoned to the foreign office to convey the grave concerns of the government of Pakistan.? The statement said Pakistan ?holds the government of Afghanistan responsible for the safety and security of its personnel in its embassy in Kabul and consulates in Herat, Kandahar, Jalalabad and Mazar-i-Sharif. ?We hope that the government of Afghanistan will take its responsibility seriously.? (Posted @ 16:40 PST)

13 dead in Swat clashes MINGORA, Pakistan, July 31 (Reuters): At least 13 people, including two women, were killed in clashes between troops and militants on Thursday in Pakistan's Swat valley, police said. The fatalities included villagers whose houses were hit by mortar bombs overnight around Kabal. ?The dead include seven of a same family including two women killed by mortar bombs,? a police official said. Residents say the militants have not been using mortars. Security forces said they had targeted militants. Militants on Thursday torched a girls? school and attacked a police checkpost. There was no immediate word on casualties from those attacks. (Posted @ 13:40 PST)

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Reports have shown that Pakistan knows where some of the Taliban are hiding, and I would expect that they know the transit routes that are being used.

Too bad we won't tell you where they are fearing another violation of our airspace. We won't use air power but hopefully we should have a plan ready for them eventually.

Pakistaqn has had 5-6 years to develop and impliemtn a plan.

What has been produced?

Why should more time be allowed?

Firstly let me make it clear. Pakistan will act in its interest not NATOs. We will go in when we feel the time is right. It's not us that's making it hard for NATO but NATO is making it hard for us. It's very easy for the tribals to hate anybody that is an ally of the US who is killing Pashtuns indiscriminately (or they think so anyways). And the whole Lal masjid fiasco has now created another group willing to kill and commit suicides.

5-6 years is NOT enough time to do anything. Not the mighty British empire could overcome the Pashtuns and now the American war machine looks close to failing. They may be able to wipe a few taliban here and there but once America leaves Kabul will not have a pro-US government. What happened in the Battle of Tora Bora? That's massive failure itself in my books. YOU let the terrorists escape. We did not invite them. Now that they are here they will be dealt with on our own terms. The tribals follow a culture that was before Islam came. Yes Islam bought major changes; but look at them still. They practice honor killings. But they're autonomous and we let them do some of these things in return for peace (Not that they should. But we don't have too many options).

The major failure of the British and Pakistan Sate has been the failure to develop that area for the past 200 years. It is only now that even some development has been done. But we don't have money. Inflation is at 25% and there is food shortage.

Damn my government cant even provide a 24hr supply of electricity to me! Fuel prices are the highest in years. Security is deteriorating. My currency is down 15%. Business is down. I'm so lucky this has not affected me in anyway. May God's grace continue to shower upon me.

This issue is that Pakistan has chosen to do nothing in 5-6 years.

And then earlier this year, you werre posting how worried that the Taliban were working with others to take control of certain cities & provinces.

Ignoring them is not going to make them go away, it just allows them to grow stronger.

If they can not control Afghanistan, then parts of Pakistan will do. And what is to stop them from spreading.

As YOU have stated, they are already spreading out of their hide-outs through the tribal areas and into the "civilization" areas.

The NATO (not American) war machine (as you put it) is not close to failing; they are just hamstrung from doing the proper job. Politicans are playing CYA both at home and for fear of offending Pakistan.

Until the decision if made to actaully destroy the Taliban whereever they hide with as much firepower as needed, the problem will not be resolved.

Should Pakistan actually cooperate, then they may be able to earn goodwill and get the Indian tension reduced.

The status quo of ignoriing the issues are not benifical for Pakistan's economy and government.

 

[Lemon law]

Afghanistan has hardly chosen to do nothing, they have already lost 1100 of own their troops fighting Al-Quida and the Taliban in the tribal areas of Pakistan. And that number already widely exceeds existing Nato causalities in what amounts to a battle Pakistan does not need or want.

Lets us all be honest here, it was Ronald Reagan's brainfart that led directly to both the creation of Al-Quida and the Taliban. And once the nose of the Russian bear was properly tweaked by US trained and armed terrorists, Washington totally abandoned Afghanistan as a no longer needed tool while Afghanistan descended into its own civil war. Its precisely that record of US duplicity that Pakistan fears will be the end fate of its own Tribal areas and something it wants to avoid because the word of the USA in that area of the world is none too credible.

But lets also be honest and admit that Pakistan played its role in paving the way for the rise of the Taliban. And much of the success of the Taliban was not its brutal and uncompromising Sharia law, but instead the Taliban was seen as a cure for the total thuggish and corrupt rule of the Northern Alliance
that was one of the first groups to gain an upper hand in the decade long Afghan civil war. And for the first time in nearly two decades, Afghanistan enjoyed some sort of relative peace as the Taliban exerted control.

Had the Taliban rule simply continued without outside intervention, IMHO, its would have gradually moderated and Afghanistan would be in better shape than it is now. Such nutty religious States are common in history, they usually have a shelf life of 20 years or so, and then moderate as their own abuses come back to bite them. But sadly, outside intervention came to Afghanistan in the form of international terrorists.

It was only slightly later that the USA finally became aware of how dangerous Ossama Bin Laden and his terror network had become. And as he wore out his welcome in Sudan, he fled to Afghanistan. Had the US asked the Taliban to extradite him to US, when he first moved to Afghanistan, the request probably would have been granted. But soon the Bin Laden terror network was aiding the Taliban in mopping up the last of Northern Alliance resistance while providing critical intel that saved the Taliban leaders from assassination plots. And on the very day before 911, Ossama Bin Laden succeeded in Assassinating the leader of the Northern Alliance.

I somewhat believe the Taliban leadership had no idea that Bin Laden& his terrorist network were about to carry out the 911 attack that so pissed off the USA. And as they say, the rest is history. Now we try to exterminate the Taliban and ignore Al-Quida.

Afghanistan is again in a State of complete anarchy and corruption as the Tribal areas of Pakistan gets to share in that same state of affairs. Pakistan is damned if they do and damned if they don't, but don't forget the Ronald Reagan who started it all by arming and training terrorists. Well, edit that to freedom fighters if you care to, its sounds so much better. It makes us sound so morally superior as we export a legacy of chaos and death all over the world. Its the Christian thing to do.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
If Pakistan were close that door, then the Taliban woiuld be crushed - caught between NATO and the Pakistani.

We offered to build a fence long ago. Your puppet in Kabul rejected our proposal.

So your truce with the Taliban and AQ in Pakistan is like the kid crying about being rejected for an idiotic proposal?

The ISI had already started helping the Taliban at the time.

Now we really don't care, get out of our way while we deal with them or get dead trying to protect them.

That is the choice you got, the only choice you'll ever have because you know what, you're not in power of these areas and the ones that are are not going to be in power for much longer.

Each and every one of the Talibans are going to die and if you get in our way, so will you.

 

[Lemon law]

Just the fellow who is even more rotten than the USA, ask a Brit, they have been in the regional corruption business far longer than the USA.

Its really sad to see how far the Brits have fallen in the past century, a century ago the sun never set on your empire, built by far smarter people than you, and now idiots like you are all brag and no results. Get a clue JOS, you have lost all of your empire, you have lost India, you have been kicked out of Iraq twice, the USA has had to bail your ass out in two world wars, and pardon me, you are the least credible role models on earth.

If we really want to go into deep historical roots of regional instability in the Afghan region, the Brits make our Ronald Reagan look like a pale imitation.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Just the fellow who is even more rotten than the USA, ask a Brit, they have been in the regional corruption business far longer than the USA.

Its really sad to see how far the Brits have fallen in the past century, a century ago the sun never set on your empire, built by far smarter people than you, and now idiots like you are all brag and no results. Get a clue JOS, you have lost all of your empire, you have lost India, you have been kicked out of Iraq twice, the USA has had to bail your ass out in two world wars, and pardon me, you are the least credible role models on earth.

If we really want to go into deep historical roots of regional instability in the Afghan region, the Brits make our Ronald Reagan look like a pale imitation.

Son, i really don't give a shit about the history of this that has nothing to do with current events and if you had ANY sense of reality, neither would you.

While you happily think that teenage girls shot in the vagina are great things of supreme Talibans i kinda oppose that, you haven't been here, you haven't seen it, you know absolutely NOTHING about ANYTHING regarding this.

Your continued support for pedophiles and child killers is disgusting and your apologies via history is even more disgusting.

i'm not an imperialist nor a conqueror, my job here is to rid this place of Talibans and if you had a daughter of your own and had seen what they have done, you would understand me, these aren't human beings, these are monsters.

The rest of your idiocy about how the US saved my arse so many times... well you know the truth, the US didn't want to get involved, Roosevelt said so himself two days before the Pearl Harbour bombing and then Germany declared war on you, what were you going to do? Say no? A few years late to the party though, brave Brits, Russians and most of Europe had been fighting for many a years before.

I'm not saying the US didn't change the course of the war, i'm saying that the groundwork was done for years before that by Russians and Brits. You're welcome for that.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

This issue is that Pakistan has chosen to do nothing in 5-6 years.

And then earlier this year, you werre posting how worried that the Taliban were working with others to take control of certain cities & provinces.

Ignoring them is not going to make them go away, it just allows them to grow stronger.

If they can not control Afghanistan, then parts of Pakistan will do. And what is to stop them from spreading.

As YOU have stated, they are already spreading out of their hide-outs through the tribal areas and into the "civilization" areas.

The NATO (not American) war machine (as you put it) is not close to failing; they are just hamstrung from doing the proper job. Politicans are playing CYA both at home and for fear of offending Pakistan.

Until the decision if made to actaully destroy the Taliban whereever they hide with as much firepower as needed, the problem will not be resolved.

Should Pakistan actually cooperate, then they may be able to earn goodwill and get the Indian tension reduced.

The status quo of ignoriing the issues are not benifical for Pakistan's economy and government.

LOL do you always write like that or do you think I'm stupid?

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Each and every one of the Talibans are going to die and if you get in our way, so will you.

With statements like that you are no better than the taliban themselves. I'm not protecting them. I just don't want one evil to be replaced by another.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Each and every one of the Talibans are going to die and if you get in our way, so will you.

With statements like that you are no better than the taliban themselves. I'm not protecting them. I just don't want one evil to be replaced by another.

It's sometimes amazing to see your thoughts here....what's even worse is you are probably one of the more educated Pak's, I shudder to think what the even less educated brainwashed masses think about US/NATO.

Tell me: How do you equate the Taliban/AQ with US/NATO forces who spend Billions of our own money (which we don't have to) on your country, send our own sons/daughters to die to rid your countries of POS's like the Taliban/AQ/Saddam, and then leave your countries to you when we're done?

I keep hearing 'The Occupiers', 'The Invaders', 'The Oppressors', 'The Imperialists", etc...but for us being all that, the US has one small F'ing empire for all the countries we've been in.

It seems reality is not in line with your perception...

Chuck

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

This issue is that Pakistan has chosen to do nothing in 5-6 years.

And then earlier this year, you were posting how worried that the Taliban were working with others to take control of certain cities & provinces.

Ignoring them is not going to make them go away, it just allows them to grow stronger.

If they can not control Afghanistan, then parts of Pakistan will do. And what is to stop them from spreading.

As YOU have stated, they are already spreading out of their hide-outs through the tribal areas and into the "civilization" areas.

The NATO (not American) war machine (as you put it) is not close to failing; they are just hamstrung from doing the proper job. Politicians are playing CYA both at home and for fear of offending Pakistan.

Until the decision if made to actually destroy the Taliban wherever they hide with as much firepower as needed, the problem will not be resolved.

Should Pakistan actually cooperate, then they may be able to earn goodwill and get the Indian tension reduced.

The status quo of ignoring the issues are not beneficial for Pakistan's economy and government.

LOL do you always write like that or do you think I'm stupid?

I do not think you are stupid. I just feel that you may be blinded many times by nationalistic fever and delusions of self grandeur.

Your posts at times indicate a concern and original thought regarding geopolitical realities and impacts; many of the others are more of regurgitation of Pakistani political/media talking points.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

This issue is that Pakistan has chosen to do nothing in 5-6 years.

And then earlier this year, you were posting how worried that the Taliban were working with others to take control of certain cities & provinces.

Ignoring them is not going to make them go away, it just allows them to grow stronger.

If they can not control Afghanistan, then parts of Pakistan will do. And what is to stop them from spreading.

As YOU have stated, they are already spreading out of their hide-outs through the tribal areas and into the "civilization" areas.

The NATO (not American) war machine (as you put it) is not close to failing; they are just hamstrung from doing the proper job. Politicians are playing CYA both at home and for fear of offending Pakistan.

Until the decision if made to actually destroy the Taliban wherever they hide with as much firepower as needed, the problem will not be resolved.

Should Pakistan actually cooperate, then they may be able to earn goodwill and get the Indian tension reduced.

The status quo of ignoring the issues are not beneficial for Pakistan's economy and government.

LOL do you always write like that or do you think I'm stupid?

I do not think you are stupid. I just feel that you may be blinded many times by nationalistic fever and delusions of self grandeur.

Your posts at times indicate a concern and original thought regarding geopolitical realities and impacts; many of the others are more of regurgitation of Pakistani political/media talking points.

I'll take that as a compliment but I was referring to your paragraphing.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Each and every one of the Talibans are going to die and if you get in our way, so will you.

With statements like that you are no better than the taliban themselves. I'm not protecting them. I just don't want one evil to be replaced by another.

It's sometimes amazing to see your thoughts here....what's even worse is you are probably one of the more educated Pak's, I shudder to think what the even less educated brainwashed masses think about US/NATO.

Tell me: How do you equate the Taliban/AQ with US/NATO forces who spend Billions of our own money (which we don't have to) on your country, send our own sons/daughters to die to rid your countries of POS's like the Taliban/AQ/Saddam, and then leave your countries to you when we're done?

I keep hearing 'The Occupiers', 'The Invaders', 'The Oppressors', 'The Imperialists", etc...but for us being all that, the US has one small F'ing empire for all the countries we've been in.

It seems reality is not in line with your perception...

Chuck

When you kill someone without a proper trial illegally in a foreign land you can not be in the right. Saddam deserved what he got but look at Iraq now under the Americans. After 5 years; it's worse than it was under Saddam with sanctions! You said you were there for WMDs. There were no WMDs. I find it hard to beleive that your country that spends 500 billion dollars on it's military did not know whether Saddam had WMDs or not. The CIA had probably infiltrated to the very top of his chain. You were not there for the WMDs but rather oil and a counter to Iran's growing influence.

America's empire is not defined by physical border but rather by influence, wealth and corporation. And not even the British had as large an empire as you have today. Congrats for that.

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

And not even the British had as large an empire as you have today. Congrats for that.

lol

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Each and every one of the Talibans are going to die and if you get in our way, so will you.

With statements like that you are no better than the taliban themselves. I'm not protecting them. I just don't want one evil to be replaced by another.

It's sometimes amazing to see your thoughts here....what's even worse is you are probably one of the more educated Pak's, I shudder to think what the even less educated brainwashed masses think about US/NATO.

Tell me: How do you equate the Taliban/AQ with US/NATO forces who spend Billions of our own money (which we don't have to) on your country, send our own sons/daughters to die to rid your countries of POS's like the Taliban/AQ/Saddam, and then leave your countries to you when we're done?

I keep hearing 'The Occupiers', 'The Invaders', 'The Oppressors', 'The Imperialists", etc...but for us being all that, the US has one small F'ing empire for all the countries we've been in.

It seems reality is not in line with your perception...

Chuck

When you kill someone without a proper trial illegally in a foreign land you can not be in the right.

Unless you it in an accidental manner and you are supposed to be there. As in, the government of that state is allowing you to be there. I totally agree if a soldier shoots an unarmed civilian who's not posing a threat, he/she should be absolutely disciplined. But in the vast vast majority of cases, it's accidental and not intentional. On the other hand, Muslim on Muslim violence...F'ing out of control. But, that's brother on brother violence...you of course wouldn't be blaming us for that too right?

Saddam deserved what he got but look at Iraq now under the Americans. After 5 years; it's worse than it was under Saddam with sanctions!

It's worse because the people there are animals to themselves, not because of US forces. All Iraq has to do to prosper is stop being animals, and start taking the opportunities that are there for them provided by Coalition forces. You know, the same forces that are dying to bring them that opportunity.

You said you were there for WMDs. There were no WMDs.

Nope, there doesn't appear to have been. Then again, there was a brutal dictator, who could never be trusted after his past actions, who was consistently defying UN resolutions because the UN is a F'ing spineless entity unless the US provides the spine. Saddam thought he was going to play the UN once again...guess what? It didn't work.

I find it hard to beleive that your country that spends 500 billion dollars on it's military did not know whether Saddam had WMDs or not.

When you have a certain president that chops the military and intelligence budgets, and that intelligence is still mainly concentrated on Cold War areas, you have predictable results.

The CIA had probably infiltrated to the very top of his chain.

Given the brutality and iron fistedness of Saddam's rule, and the budget cuts in the 90's, why would you assume this again?? See also NK as an example.

You were not there for the WMDs but rather oil and a counter to Iran's growing influence.

And yet, the US doesn't - nor will - own one drop of oil there. Nor does it take over any oil fields as our own. Funny, we were there for the oil, where is it TGB???? The most we'll get out of that deal in respect to oil is preferential availability and/or pricing. After spending so much of our own $$$ and lives to liberate them from Saddam, I don't see that as so bad.

As far as Iran's growing influence, that wouldn't be a problem at all, save for the wacko's running Iran. Get the religous nutjobs out of control there, and let the average Iranian run the country, and I'd welcome them influencing that region.

America's empire is not defined by physical border but rather by influence, wealth and corporation. And not even the British had as large an empire as you have today. Congrats for that.

We should be congratulated for that. Instead of rule, we bring prosperity and opportunity. You're welcome.

Chuck

 

[Socio]

This does not help matters much;

Pakistan Admits Taliban Ties In Spy Agency

(CBS/AP) Pakistan's government said Friday it needs to purge Taliban sympathizers from the country's main intelligence agency but angrily denied a report that the agency helped plan a bombing that killed at least 41 in Afghanistan.

The New York Times reported that American intelligence agencies have concluded that members of Pakistan's powerful Inter-Services Intelligence were involved in the July 7 attack on the Indian Embassy in Kabul.

It is looking more and more like the Taliban is too imbedded in Pakistan to ever weed them out.

Which is leading to this;

U.S. Losing Its Trust In Key Ally Pakistan

(CBS/AP) CBS News has learned that the U.S. military, for the past four months, has routinely withheld advanced information from Pakistani authorities on attacks carried out in Pakistan's border region targeting al Qaeda and Taliban suspects, for fear the information could be leaked to militants, according to a high-level European defense official in Islamabad.

The official told CBS News' Farhan Bokhari the Bush administration is demanding a comprehensive revamp of Pakistan's powerful counter-espionage agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), before Washington will resume full intelligence cooperation with its valuable Asian ally.

 

[Lemon law]

In terms of fighting the Taliban, the Northern Alliance has probably been the most effective, Pakistan is almost certainly second, and Nato is a far distant third. 2008 has been the worse year yet, attacks are up at least 40% from 2007, and while the run into the safe areas of Pakistan argument may carry some weight near the Pakistani border, Nato is clearly losing control of the entire Country , even in the Kabul and areas to the South and West.

And while I somewhat agree that some elements of the Pakistani ISI are in fact aiding the Taliban, so are elements of the Afghan government and its narco state finding the current Afghan anarchy to their liking.

At the same time, the whole situation is an unmitigated disaster for Pakistan. The GWB&co plus Nato occupation that was supposed to bring rapid order and government to Afghanistan is too ineptly run and too thinly staffed to be anything other than an occupation on the cheap bound to fail occupation that is doing just that. And given totally unrealistic Nato goals and a track record of failure, Pakistan has little reason to trust Nato and even less reason to trust GWB&co.

As any commitments made by Musharraf and GWB become less important as their time passes, I can only hope that the upcoming talks between the New Pakistani PM, the US, and India can rebuild some semblance of co operation. But any my way or the highway diplomacy is going to go over like a lead balloon. United, the US, Nato, and Pakistan can stand, divided, they are doomed.

While Palehorse and JOS may be correct on the viciousness of some extreme elements of the Taliban, 300 thousand plus Taliban sympathizers cannot be ignored as a political force in either Afghanistan or the tribal areas of Pakistan.

Being honest enough on all sides to realize all bear a great deal of joint responsibility for the resultant chaos is a start.

I am frankly amazed at those on those forums who think the US are the total angels here.

But IMHO, the real enemy is and remains Al-Quida, a fact we seem to lose sight of.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
<snip>

While Palehorse and JOS may be correct on the viciousness of some extreme elements of the Taliban,

Haha...have we seen any reports of the humanitarian Taliban??? Why do you consistently keep making excuses for this POS group of POS??? Read this and understand it: There are times to be PC, and then there are times to call a spade a spade. The F'ing Taliban are scum. Period. Stop trying to meet them halfway.

300 thousand plus Taliban sympathizers cannot be ignored as a political force in either Afghanistan or the tribal areas of Pakistan.

You mean 300k people that are terrified and don't have the means to defend themselves, so they go with the flow so as to not be butchered? Right, got it, glad we're clear now.

Being honest enough on all sides to realize all bear a great deal of joint responsibility for the resultant chaos is a start.

I'd almost say I'd agree with you hear, but I know from your past postings you'd take that to mean it's basically all the US's fault and little others.

I am frankly amazed at those on those forums who think the US are the total angels here.

Total angels? No. Near as bad as you make the US out to be? Not even close.

But IMHO, the real enemy is and remains Al-Quida, a fact we seem to lose sight of.

When you're out hunting one rabid dog that bit your immediate family, and you come across another that bit your neighbor, do you just ignore the one that bit your neighbor to go find the one that bit your immediate family? Bah..I don't even know why I say 'you' here...it's clear you'd want to talk about how the dog got rabid, whether it's as rabid as we think, the feelings of the rabid dog, how driving in your car to find it may cause you to hit a stray and so we should walk instead, or debating whether we should refer to it as rabid instead of a Misunderstood Poochie.

I can't tell which is worse: TGB delusional posting or the Holiday Inn Express sympathizer postings of yourself. Both are both fun to read for comedic value, and dismaying to read as there really are people out there that think like you two.

Chuck

 

[Lemon law]

Well chucky2, I am sure there were many in England that thought exactly the same about George Washington, Thomas Payne, Nathan Hale, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and the rest of that rotten crew. Exterminate the lot of them rebels. Just a bunch of troublemakers.

Chucky2, you are a small minded and ignorant if you think the Taliban is anything but a homegrown joint Afghanistan Pakistani movement. The JOS palehorse contention that the entire lot of them are rapists is comic book thinking from two proven failures. Since the Taliban is an idea with up sides and downsides for the people, the notion that ideals and aspirations can be exterminated is absurd.

Especially when the USA and Nato are polling about 10% with the locals people.

I was not staying at a Holiday INN express during the Vietnam war, but I have already had a belly full of this stinking thinking to last a lifetime. But new times require new fools, you did not learn your lesson with republirat lies about WMD's in Iraq, why not, some new fools have to fuel war now, war forever.

If the shoe fits Chucky2, wear it. Just don't expect the shoe to take you anywhere and don't expect it to last.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: chucky2
Unless you it in an accidental manner and you are supposed to be there. As in, the government of that state is allowing you to be there. I totally agree if a soldier shoots an unarmed civilian who's not posing a threat, he/she should be absolutely disciplined. But in the vast vast majority of cases, it's accidental and not intentional. On the other hand, Muslim on Muslim violence...F'ing out of control. But, that's brother on brother violence...you of course wouldn't be blaming us for that too right?

The AbuGhraib prison scandal culprits were not punished. Some were but most got away. That's unacceptable. This is an American forum. I never said I was a supporter of any muslim-muslim violence. In most cases it's far worst than what you have done. But that does not give you the right to do what you do.

It's worse because the people there are animals to themselves, not because of US forces. All Iraq has to do to prosper is stop being animals, and start taking the opportunities that are there for them provided by Coalition forces. You know, the same forces that are dying to bring them that opportunity.

Let's see NY city get through a day without any security. :roll:

Nope, there doesn't appear to have been. Then again, there was a brutal dictator, who could never be trusted after his past actions, who was consistently defying UN resolutions because the UN is a F'ing spineless entity unless the US provides the spine. Saddam thought he was going to play the UN once again...guess what? It didn't work.

The fact is you lied. You would never have gotten support if you just went to get Saddam. The collateral damage wasn't worth it. Reports suggest a million people have been killed directly due to the illegal war.

And when America defies the U.N nobody does anything. Are they lucky it's "worked" so far?

When you have a certain president that chops the military and intelligence budgets, and that intelligence is still mainly concentrated on Cold War areas, you have predictable results.

I still find it hard to believe. Your president was so sure of the WMDs that could apparently be launched within hours into Europe. You did not have lack of intelligence (or public propaganda) but FALSE intelligence. I'm not going to buy Bush did not know before hand. Just for this lie he should be tried by an international court. You know how bad a state the world is in when people say America is just. An America where a president was tried for lying about an affair while another president that lied to go to war that has left a million people gets to rule for 4 more years.

Given the brutality and iron fistedness of Saddam's rule, and the budget cuts in the 90's, why would you assume this again?? See also NK as an example.

Yes I do.

And yet, the US doesn't - nor will - own one drop of oil there. Nor does it take over any oil fields as our own. Funny, we were there for the oil, where is it TGB???? The most we'll get out of that deal in respect to oil is preferential availability and/or pricing. After spending so much of our own $$$ and lives to liberate them from Saddam, I don't see that as so bad.

I'm sure someone else on this forum will be happy to explain how US oil companies have profited from this war. And not to mention your arms industry that would collapse if it weren't for illegal wars.

As far as Iran's growing influence, that wouldn't be a problem at all, save for the wacko's running Iran. Get the religous nutjobs out of control there, and let the average Iranian run the country, and I'd welcome them influencing that region.

I consider anything to do with democracy American influence.

We should be congratulated for that. Instead of rule, we bring prosperity and opportunity. You're welcome.

LOL @ bringing prosperity. Yes we can all see how Iraq and Afghanistan are prospering. ;roll;

 

[Orignal Earl]

Originally posted by: chucky2


And yet, the US doesn't - nor will - own one drop of oil there. Nor does it take over any oil fields as our own. Funny, we were there for the oil, where is it TGB????

There it is... right in the 6th spot

Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)

CANADA
SAUDI ARABIA
MEXICO
VENEZUELA
NIGERIA
IRAQ

Text

 

[TechAZ]

Originally posted by: Orignal Earl

Originally posted by: chucky2


And yet, the US doesn't - nor will - own one drop of oil there. Nor does it take over any oil fields as our own. Funny, we were there for the oil, where is it TGB????

There it is... right in the 6th spot

Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)

CANADA
SAUDI ARABIA
MEXICO
VENEZUELA
NIGERIA
IRAQ

Text

How does this relate to what chucky said?

 

[TechAZ]

Thanks to this thread, TGB can be known as the terrorist sympathizer and future AQ recruit.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Originally posted by: TechAZ

Originally posted by: Orignal Earl

Originally posted by: chucky2


And yet, the US doesn't - nor will - own one drop of oil there. Nor does it take over any oil fields as our own. Funny, we were there for the oil, where is it TGB????

There it is... right in the 6th spot

Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)

CANADA
SAUDI ARABIA
MEXICO
VENEZUELA
NIGERIA
IRAQ

Text

How does this relate to what chucky said?

Since Iraq is the 6th largest supplier of crude to the US, it makes sense that the US has alot of Iraq oil.. no?

edit- Ah k, I see the argument, he was saying that the US never actually took over anything
K my bad

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: TechAZ
Thanks to this thread, TGB can be known as the terrorist sympathizer and future AQ recruit.

LOL! I can really not understand how you can come up with such preposterous claims. If the taliban was anyone's enemy it would first be mine. They have made a mock of Islam itself and will not let me practice it my way. They think they're the only ones that are right and everyone else is wrong. The Taliban's thoughts were derived from the Khawarij. The are a threat to Islam itself before they are a threat to anybody else.

But the grand daddy of the taliban are the wahabis of Saudi Arabia backed by the kings. They're the ones you really need to get rid off first. They're the ones giving Islam a bad name. They're the one killing muslims and muslims alike. They're the one killing indiscriminately.

One thing you must understand that the principles of jihad (or struggle) have been manipulated by these wahabis and taliban to suit their purpose. Read the history of the khawarij. They've been constantly fighting since their rebellion whoever has been in power; be it sunni or Shia. The thing today is some weak minded sunnis have actually converted to wahabism by Saudi Arabia based propaganda funded indirectly by you.

Go ask a taliban if it's permissible to kill a Shiah. He will say a shiah should be killed before an infidel.

The only thing I don't agree with is the way you are fighting and the way you blame everything on everyone else. Statements like all taliban must die are ridiculous. As long as they can be contained by force or otherwise it is enough. But by bombing from the air you are just giving birth the more wahabi taliban that you (we) will eventually have to face. The Taliban are wrong in what they do but you aren't right. You have bought as much destruction as they have.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
While Palehorse and JOS may be correct on the viciousness of some extreme elements of the Taliban, 300 thousand plus Taliban sympathizers cannot be ignored as a political force in either Afghanistan or the tribal areas of Pakistan.

There is no such thing as a moderate, reasonable, or non-violent member of the Taliban. The beliefs that define and govern the Taliban are at their core defined by violent oppression - no exceptions.

Not one.

If you finally got that through your thick fucking skull, maybe you'd finally begin to comprehend the problem.