Pakistani Coalition parties oppose use of force in Fata

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Lemon law
While Palehorse and JOS may be correct on the viciousness of some extreme elements of the Taliban, 300 thousand plus Taliban sympathizers cannot be ignored as a political force in either Afghanistan or the tribal areas of Pakistan.

There is no such thing as a moderate, reasonable, or non-violent member of the Taliban. The beliefs that define and govern the Taliban are at their core defined by violent oppression - no exceptions.

Not one.

If you finally got that through your thick fucking skull, maybe you'd finally begin to comprehend the problem.

So you would kill them even if they did not take up arms? If they surrendered? That's where our stand differs. If they offer to surrender arms then let them be. Execute the leaders and officers and let the others live.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Lemon law
While Palehorse and JOS may be correct on the viciousness of some extreme elements of the Taliban, 300 thousand plus Taliban sympathizers cannot be ignored as a political force in either Afghanistan or the tribal areas of Pakistan.

There is no such thing as a moderate, reasonable, or non-violent member of the Taliban. The beliefs that define and govern the Taliban are at their core defined by violent oppression - no exceptions.

Not one.

If you finally got that through your thick fucking skull, maybe you'd finally begin to comprehend the problem.

So you would kill them even if they did not take up arms? If they surrendered? That's where our stand differs. If they offer to surrender arms then let them be. Execute the leaders and officers and let the others live.

I have never met a Taliban who even considered surrender as an option.

If they put down their arms, then they should be arrested, tried, and imprisoned or executed accordingly.

But, once again, I've never met a reasonable, sensible, or honorable member of the Taliban.

Not one.

 

[Lemon law]

I should not have used the phrase 300,000 plus Taliban sympathizers, it would have been more correct to use 300,000 plus actual Taliban and millions of sympathizers.

To a certain extent, what palehorse is setting up a self fulfilling proposition and I very much doubt if he has much of an understanding of why Afghan sons signed up to be the bulk of the power of the Taliban. But if we are to believe palehorse and JOS, it was to empower the inner rapist in themselves. But sorry, palehorse and JOS, that was is and was not correct. A more correct history of the birth of the Taliban is as follows.

But like any organization, be its a church, and army or any organization, organization and growth is dependent on indoctrination and the young are the easiest to indoctrinate. With the bloody Afghan Russian fight being a prime motivator for many Afghans able to afford it, a reasons to send their young sons to Pakistani schools to both get some sort of an education and to stay safe during the was the raging war. And since the British never build any descent educational institutions, many of these schools were run by the local religious authorities, some offered a sound education and others offered nothing but religious instruction. And what many of these students learned is of a glorious past that never was, before the Western armies arrived to screw everything up in the entire region of Pakistan and Afghanistan. A message that was neither wholly true or false, but the picture painted was of a Islamic paradise where the people followed Sharia law and there was no descent, conflicts, or problems because the people practiced Sharia law. And as a sort of a traveling school speaker was a rather rustic rabble rouser cleric named Mullah Omar who probably had little initial idea of how powerful his message was to become.

But time always moves on, soon the Russians got chased away, the USA then lost all interest in the fate of Afghanistan, and the young Madrassas students grew up and returned to Afghanistan as young adults. And what a different world they found.

Instead of relative peace and stability of Pakistan, they found an Afghanistan racked by anarchy, drugs, complete rule by war lord thugs, and enough of them banded together, basically saying, oh my God, Mullah Omar was right. Its Western culture that has caused this mess and Sharia law is the answer.
Enough of them found Mullah Omar, asked him to lead them, and the Taliban Movement, short for student, was born. For many of the Afghan people, the Taliban brand Sharia law was hardly an attractive option, but rule by war lord thugs was even less attractive. And since it perfectly fell into the interests of Pakistan itself, the Taliban got Pakistani support as well. And remarkably quickly, the war lord thugs were sent packing, drug cultivations was stopped, and local commerce could resume because looting and thievery was effectively stopped. And for the first time since 1937, Afghanistan was on the road to forming a functional government.

But before JOS and palehorse get too hyperspastic on information overload, they are also partly right because the rise of the Taliban came at a horrible human price. Unlike most of the modern Muslim world, the female population was regarded as chattel by the Taliban, and the basic Taliban methodology is exactly the same as palehorse and JOS, submit or die.

Now much of the original sons of the Afghan people who were students that provided the muscle for the initial movement are no longer official Taliban members, and only the most thuggish and vicious of the Taliban remain carrying on the active fight. Of course surrender is not an option for them, because they will be locked up in Gitmo or somewhere else and never again see the light of day. But still the remnants of the Taliban and their sympathizers are winning in Afghanistan because, deny it or not, the current occupation has effectively set Afghanistan back a full two decades, drug production is way up, thugs are in firm control of much of Afghanistan, and the Nato occupation on the cheap are seen by many locals as even a worse alternative than the Taliban.

In any insurgent movement conflict resolution the successful path is always the same. (A) Do not empower extremists on either side who now drive the agenda. (B) Find common goals that the US, Nato, Pakistan, and Afghanistan can agree on. And then get the more numerous but driven out of the process moderates to talk to each other and agree on those common long term goals.

There actually quite a few common areas of agreement. (1) Opium production is bad for Afghanistan and the world. (2) Anarchy in Afghanistan is bad. (3) Rule by war lord thugs and narco terrorists is bad. (4) An effective central government able to reduce anarchy and restart safe commerce in Afghanistan is good. (5) Both sides hope for a withdrawal of foreign troops and future non hostile relations.

What is debatable is the shape and laws of a future stable Afghan government. But after six plus years its maybe long past time to realize that extremists like JOS and palehorse will not get 100% of their way because in goals one through five, Nato extremists results are effectively on the wrong side on all five points of potential agreement. Even the Taliban is not quite all wrong on all five.

I certainly advocate a diplomatic solution to Afghanistan because a military solution has been a giant lose lose lose lose for everyone.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I should not have used the phrase 300,000 plus Taliban sympathizers, it would have been more correct to use 300,000 plus actual Taliban and millions of sympathizers.

You're fucking high.

I certainly advocate a diplomatic solution to Afghanistan because a military solution has been a giant lose lose lose lose for everyone.

Idiots like you need to stop tying our hands or supporting those who do.

You still don't get it son... :roll:

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I should not have used the phrase 300,000 plus Taliban sympathizers, it would have been more correct to use 300,000 plus actual Taliban and millions of sympathizers.

You're fucking high.

I certainly advocate a diplomatic solution to Afghanistan because a military solution has been a giant lose lose lose lose for everyone.

Idiots like you need to stop tying our hands or supporting those who do.

You still don't get it son... :roll:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well one thing for sure, one of us do not get it.

In terms of the 300,000 figure of actual Taliban, I am using your 1% of the population numbers, now exactly who is high on Afghan drugs?

I write an 11 paragraph post detailing my position, you don't even start to rebut it, and all you have to support your position is a record of total failure.

And by the way, I am not your son nor can you claim any paternity, stupidity and denial does not run in my family. Does it ever occur to you that your arrogant my way or the highway is not working? Six damn years of continued stupid policy, each year worse than the last, only idiots can't connect those dots. Flat out, Nato has lost almost all control of Afghanistan from its Western to Eastern border and everywhere in between. If you think I am happy about that, have your head examined. But at least I am able to keep my eyes on the prize, its going to take some smarter policy for anyone to win.

In terms of tying your hands, don't blame me, GWB&co is the fellows doing that. How the hell smart are you palehorse, taking a position 100% at variance with your own commanders? In most smart organizations, your ass would be fired long ago for your insubordination.

I am horrified that you might be posted to Iraq next, given your track record, you will have Iraq in instant renewed violence in nothing flat.

 

[SleepWalkerX]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Lemon law
While Palehorse and JOS may be correct on the viciousness of some extreme elements of the Taliban, 300 thousand plus Taliban sympathizers cannot be ignored as a political force in either Afghanistan or the tribal areas of Pakistan.

There is no such thing as a moderate, reasonable, or non-violent member of the Taliban. The beliefs that define and govern the Taliban are at their core defined by violent oppression - no exceptions.

Not one.

If you finally got that through your thick fucking skull, maybe you'd finally begin to comprehend the problem.

So you would kill them even if they did not take up arms? If they surrendered? That's where our stand differs. If they offer to surrender arms then let them be. Execute the leaders and officers and let the others live.

I have never met a Taliban who even considered surrender as an option.

If they put down their arms, then they should be arrested, tried, and imprisoned or executed accordingly.

But, once again, I've never met a reasonable, sensible, or honorable member of the Taliban.

Not one.

I have two questions for you.

1) How many Taliban supporters have you met?

2) When Americans began murdering British troops in the late 1700's do you personally think they should have been arrested, tried, imprisoned, and/or executed?

 

[Lemon law]

Since I assume SleepWalkerX asks his questions to palehorse, I alos await his answer.

But meanwhile, this article might explain some of the positions of the bulk of the Afghan population that is not Taliban.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08....html?_r=1&oref=slogin

 

[Socio]

Looks like the Taliban have uped the anti in Pakistan;

Child suicide bombers ready to strike across Pakistan

Karachi (AsiaNews) ? Leaders of the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan have warned that their boys and girls aged 10 to 20 are ready for a ?Jihad against the infidels.? Addressing a press conference on Tuesday in Anayat Kalley, a few kilometres from the headquarters of the Bajaur Agency, a tribal area near the Afghan border, Tehrik?s deputy chief Maulana Faqir Mohammad and spokesman Maulvi Omar said that ?a ?fidayeen squad?(suicide bomber squad) comprising 10- to 20-year-old boys and girls, was ready to carry out attacks if the government did not immediately stop its operations in the Swat Valley and reverse its decision to launch military operation in other tribal areas. In the meantime arrangements have been made to effectively wage a ?Jihad against the infidels?.

The utter lack of humanity they have that they would willingly sacrifice their own children like this just blows me away.