Panasonic ST60

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destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Amazon has free shipping both directions on their sets.

Not saying shipping ain't free - I'm saying it's an additional hassle, especially if something goes wrong and you have to exchange/return it.
Because carrier shipping also introduces further risk as well. Chances of something happening are low, but PDPs are kinda fragile.

I like utilizing local retail if at all possible, unless the cost difference is extreme. It just makes life a little easier when things don't work out as well the first time.
 

Midwayman

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2000
5,723
325
126
Sure, but tax is over 10% here..... Its almost like they *want* people to buy over the internet.
 

MadScientist

Platinum Member
Jul 15, 2001
2,154
47
91
+tax though.... well depending on where you are.The 60" is only like $130 more...

9.25% sales tax in Knox county, TN, the state gets 7%, the county 2.25%.

Ordered the TCP55ST60 from Paul's TV late Monday, no upsell phone calls, received it this morning in excellent condition, shipped from their E.Taunton, MA store. Threshold delivery, but driver helped me inspect it.

The 55" is just right for the room it's in, the 60" would have been too big.
 
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alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
Sure, but tax is over 10% here..... Its almost like they *want* people to buy over the internet.

In all fairness, one is always supposed to pay local sales tax.

As soon as the government gets their way, online retailers will be collecting it as well.
 

Midwayman

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2000
5,723
325
126
In all fairness, one is always supposed to pay local sales tax.

As soon as the government gets their way, online retailers will be collecting it as well.

Yah... it'll end sometime in the next few years I expect. FWIW Illinois has a line on your state income tax form that you can pay estimated use tax based on your income. So long as you do that you're not dodging the taxes. Just on the right side of average.
 

MadScientist

Platinum Member
Jul 15, 2001
2,154
47
91
In all fairness, one is always supposed to pay local sales tax.

Use taxes have been in place in TN since 1947, aimed at collecting taxes on out-of-state purchases that were used by state residents, but how many residents actually pay the tax. In the 2011-12 fiscal year, the state took in only $6.3 million in use tax from consumers.
Amazon opened up 2 distribution centers in TN in 2012. They struck a deal with the state to start collecting sales tax on 1-1-14.

Even though Amazon won’t be collecting sales tax from Tennessee residents until 2014, the online retailer did agree to e-mail reminders to Tennessee Amazon shoppers that they must voluntarily pay sales tax on their previous purchases from Amazon, and included a link to the TN Dept of Revenue Consumer Use Tax Return.
The state says that it could earn up to $30 million in 2013 if Amazon shoppers pay up. Of course, not everyone is willing to hand over the money just yet.
 
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MadScientist

Platinum Member
Jul 15, 2001
2,154
47
91
I envy you guys. I need the VT60 in my life.

I thought about getting the VT60, but for the price, the PQ on the ST60 will suffice. What I really wanted is a no frills plasma with a great panel. I would have got the S60 but the ST60 has a better panel, or, if you can find one at Costco, the S64 which is the S60 but with the anti glare filter.

This is AVS Forum's top 5 plasma TV picks:
http://www.avsforum.com/a/avs-forums-top-5-plasma-tvs-of-2013
 

aman74

Senior member
Mar 12, 2003
261
0
0
lots of people on AVS have the 50" which BB is selling for 999 right now which is a great price. reports in so far is that they are great sets and when caibrated are better vs the ST50 and come very close to if not beating the VT50 in some areas

60" still MIA, im waiting for it as well

Wow, I know this is old, but were the 50" VT60's really 999? Was that a blowout? It doesn't seem that size is readily available and certainly not at that price.

I just got a 50S64 and would have loved to step up at that price. I'm mostly pleased, but a couple things have got me down on it.
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,149
57
91
The current codes expire today.

I'm taking a chance and waiting until the new ones come out, hoping they'll be cheaper. Or at least the same, if not cheaper.

65VT60 is in my crosshairs. 2299 with the current code, I think it's FALL27.

Amazon's current special with that TV is a free soundbar. Someone at Slickdeals says they got Amazon to PM Paul's, and still got the soundbar.

I don't need a soundbar, but I'll certainly take one for free and put it in my bedroom or somewhere.
 

MadScientist

Platinum Member
Jul 15, 2001
2,154
47
91
Just a heads up if you use the coupon codes and ebates. They are dicking around with me about the rebate because I did not link the coupon code through their website, only the rebate. That's total bs. No where in their terms and conditions does it say that you have to do this. My rebate is currently under review.

As for my TV, P55ST60, the PQ is great. I big step up from my old LG plasma.

After it's broken in, ~100 hours use, I'm going to try some of these settings.
http://forums.cnet.com/7723-19410_102-590736/panasonic-tc-p55st60-picture-settings/
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1466472/2013-panasonic-settings-issues-thread
D-Nice recommends you run his slides for 100 hours before applying his settings.
http://reviews.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/panasonic-plasma-tv/panasonic-st60-picture-settings.html
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450484/official-panasonic-tc-pxxst60-series-thread/5160#post_23361663

Granted, these settings will be ball park since they were calibrated on other panels, but I'll see how the PQ is with them.
 

olds

Elite Member
Mar 3, 2000
50,061
720
126
Just a heads up if you use the coupon codes and ebates. They are dicking around with me about the rebate because I did not link the coupon code through their website, only the rebate. That's total bs. No where in their terms and conditions does it say that you have to do this. My rebate is currently under review.

As for my TV, P55ST60, the PQ is great. I big step up from my old LG plasma.

After it's broken in, ~100 hours use, I'm going to try some of these settings.
http://forums.cnet.com/7723-19410_102-590736/panasonic-tc-p55st60-picture-settings/
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1466472/2013-panasonic-settings-issues-thread
D-Nice recommends you run his slides for 100 hours before applying his settings.
http://reviews.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/panasonic-plasma-tv/panasonic-st60-picture-settings.html
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450484/official-panasonic-tc-pxxst60-series-thread/5160#post_23361663

Granted, these settings will be ball park since they were calibrated on other panels, but I'll see how the PQ is with them.

With D-Nice's settings, you are supposed to run only his slides for the first 100 hours then use his settings. That's supposed to approximate what he sees. I would assume it would still be close if his slides weren't run.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Just a heads up if you use the coupon codes and ebates. They are dicking around with me about the rebate because I did not link the coupon code through their website, only the rebate. That's total bs. No where in their terms and conditions does it say that you have to do this. My rebate is currently under review.

As for my TV, P55ST60, the PQ is great. I big step up from my old LG plasma.

After it's broken in, ~100 hours use, I'm going to try some of these settings.
http://forums.cnet.com/7723-19410_102-590736/panasonic-tc-p55st60-picture-settings/
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1466472/2013-panasonic-settings-issues-thread
D-Nice recommends you run his slides for 100 hours before applying his settings.
http://reviews.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/panasonic-plasma-tv/panasonic-st60-picture-settings.html
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450484/official-panasonic-tc-pxxst60-series-thread/5160#post_23361663

Granted, these settings will be ball park since they were calibrated on other panels, but I'll see how the PQ is with them.

I haven't professionally calibrated, or tried to use my simple colorimeter (i1 Display Pro). I don't know if that is even possible with that specific model, but I do have an HTPC connected to my P50ST60, so it may be possible to treat it like a computer monitor. Whether that improves the picture or not, who knows.

But yep, I ran the D-Nice color slides for over 100 hours, and plugged every last one of his settings. I wish he had a 3D Mode collection of settings, since they are 100% different. I can't remember which one I used for that, I'd recognize it if I saw the site though. A few on AVS pointed them out - using D-Nice settings for 2D, this other place for 3D.

That said, holy wow... the D-Nice settings are beautiful. They don't scream in your face, which is both a Pro and a Con. Most people are so used to the insane brightness and saturation of recent displays - thankfully, I've always been well-adjusted to calibrated displays. Earlier this year, after taking up digital photography, I started calibrating my LCDs. I had my previous LCD TV professionally calibrated. I helped slightly adjust settings on my parents Panny PDP.
And I've always kind of gagged a little when looking at stock panels, though my eyes tend to adjust.
I was annoyed when I discovered my buddy, who has a ST50, has left the motion smoothing setting enabled. Ugh, I hate that 120hz effect.
Works well for sports, but I couldn't stand to toggle features on and off for activities. I barely remember to turn on Game Mode, and it probably doesn't matter for me. I think I've always had high-input-lag TVs. As long as my PC monitors aren't terrible, I don't expect I care too much.

The brightness settings from D-Nice are alright during bright day-time - it's not so dim that it makes you want to raise the brightness, but it probably wouldn't hurt if watching with a lot of light in the room.

At night, it's absolutely perfect. I am thinking of bias lighting, but I'm waiting to find just the right and most practical solution, with the best CRI and most accurate temperature.
It's definitely nice though, as even in a pitch black environment, it's not so bright that it causes eye strain when watching at length. That's one benefit of bias lighting, is that it helps reduce eye strain by slightly raising the ambient surrounding light, which gives your eyes a constant source of slight illumination so that they aren't constantly adjusting. The main benefit of that process, however, is the apparent increase in contrast.
I fully expect the blackest night scenes to just melt into the bezel once I get bias lighting. They almost do now - but full night scenes, or at least on the sources I've seen, do tend to be slightly gray. Not gray, at all.. but not so deep black that they blend in with the bezel. Bias lighting might not even improve that entirely, but it's also not a negative issue with the display - night scenes with minimal bright areas to increase actual contrast on the display are difficult to display with inky depth. If it's night but there's a lot of light as well, those blacks ARE inky and blend with the bezel. Doubly so at any other time, light day-time but in-door dark shadows or actual black objects that aren't being shined on directly. Those blacks look infinitely black, like... black-hole they are sucking in light type black.

It also might just be content - motion film, with minimal light and a totally dark scene, often has a certain exposure that tends to not represent the blackest of black.


In short - I am absolutely enthralled by this display. Even on night-time scenes with dark grays as I've described above, I've never seen them, ever, represented any darker. My parents' PDP from, something like 2009, doesn't even appear to HAVE actual deep blacks, ever, when compared to this set. I've been spoiled by the latest and greatest in Panasonic's R&D - and I'm so, so sad that future people will not get to experience anything like this, or better, once current stock is depleted.
Granted, Samsung is still in the game - but according to black measurements, they haven't reached Panasonic yet. LG has never been a real competitor. Much of Panasonic's recent crowning achievements are likely thanks to them gobbling up the Pioneer Kuro team (which had bested Panasonic's best efforts for awhile).
OLED will spank PDP like mad - but it's going to be something like 5 years before they reach pricing like the ST60 series. Which, mind you, is also tested to be better than the best Kuro PDP.
Last year Panny's on the scene, but they did manage to push out a Kuro-beating product, at the $1000 price level for a 50" PDP. That's balla.
Which is about right - I think the last Kuro was, what, 2008, 2009? A good four or five years to bring $4000-$6000 PDP quality to the $1000 PDP market.
 

Midwayman

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2000
5,723
325
126
You try the remote app yet? It allows you to do all the calibration stuff without having to keep the menus up on the screen at all times. Much easier navigation.

The other thing I discovered is the built in netflix app supports both the new superHD and 3d. That's pretty rare at this point. Nice to have some 3d content to test out 3d mode.
 

MadScientist

Platinum Member
Jul 15, 2001
2,154
47
91

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Here's Sound & Vision's full review of the P60ST60 including 2D and 3D settings:
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/panasonic-viera-tc-p60st60-3d-plasma-hdtv-settings

Ha, that's the settings I used for 3D - except I still kept Motion Smoother off. BAH - it isn't as bad in 3D, but movies still look like junk with that on.

I may have tweaked the settings slightly, but I don't think much, if at all, aside from the above.

I definitely kept D-Nice's settings for 2D, as opposed to using their settings for both 3D and 2D.
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,149
57
91
Ha, that's the settings I used for 3D - except I still kept Motion Smoother off. BAH - it isn't as bad in 3D, but movies still look like junk with that on.

I may have tweaked the settings slightly, but I don't think much, if at all, aside from the above.

I definitely kept D-Nice's settings for 2D, as opposed to using their settings for both 3D and 2D.

I find it interesting that people think the Motion Smoothing "doesn't look good"....hell, it looks FAR BETTER than the regular picture. It looks like you're looking through a window, or you "on set".

And regular film, which actually isn't a clear a picture, people think "looks better".

Never have understood that.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
I find it interesting that people think the Motion Smoothing "doesn't look good"....hell, it looks FAR BETTER than the regular picture. It looks like you're looking through a window, or you "on set".

And regular film, which actually isn't a clear a picture, people think "looks better".

Never have understood that.

It doesn't look like looking through a window - not at all.
For sports it does, but sports have a different approach to cinematography.

I think the only way for the "120hz effect" to look OK/normal, is for a radical change to the world of cinematography. I'm not even sure how that would work - I'm having trouble envisioning different technologies and different artistic filming methods.

From my understanding of the way the brain/visual system works, we don't have the visual potential to actually see out the window what we see from a camera during a movie when played in 120hz. It's too smooth. We don't see like that.
We see in limited focus, limited detail within a very, very small field of view. It just so happens we can rapidly change that FoV very, very rapidly. So if we focus on the wrong part of the screen during a video, we can get annoyed at the blurriness or judder if it's during panning.
But realistically, we see very little "resolution" during head/eye panning.

We can "see" a lot - but outside of that very small part of vision in focus, everything else is incredibly low detail. Our brain plays a lot of tricks to make us feel otherwise.
Another interesting vision fact: we see motion at night much better at the extreme sides OUTSIDE of our FoV. Which is to say, if we are looking at it, we won't see it as well compared to if we were looking at something else.
But those same extreme outside edges of our retina have terrible color vision reception, so if you need to recognize colors at night, you have to look directly at something.
This applies in the daytime at well, but the typical amount of light minimizes the negative impacts.


Point being - when I look outside a window, the entire world is not in perfect clarity, including when I move my head, look around, or track something in motion with my eyes.
To see it that way from a camera, it feels far more alien that putting up with the old cinematic standard of 24fps.

I haven't seen anything in HFR/48fps 3D yet - but I reckon it might not be as bad as 60/120. I might be wrong though - it might be fast enough to feel alien. I would think 48fps 2D would be terrible... but 24fps for each eye might work better. Though I swear I remember reading a lot of negative opinions of the Hobbit in HFR 3D, citing similar complaints to 120hz.

I'm not arguing 24fps should remain the gold standard. It has its problems. But I don't think we have whatever would be necessary to establish a new standard that treats the problem at the source, instead of patching it with 120hz. And no, simply changing the filming framerate is not the answer.
For one, I still want to see more movies filmed on actual film - and 60fps filming is expensive and tedious for Hollywood productions (not that they can't eat/pass on that expense - what's new, right?).

I'd like to see an improvement - but patching with motion smoothing is the wrong direction. The solution lies with the cinematographers, but I'm not sure the technology exists to provide them with the right tools.


Also: regarding film (if you meant the comment, "And regular film, which actually isn't a clear a picture, people think "looks better," to represent actual film, as opposed to the act of "filming" at the 24fps film standard, even if using digital sensors) - I was a late adopter with Digital SLRs, because of my appreciation for film.
Quality film stock STILL have a far better dynamic look, and is NOT soft by any means. It may not be so sharp that you can tell individual pixels, but we don't see like that anyway. It has "softer lines" in that it's capturing the raw light on crystals/grains (which are spaced irregularly, though extremely close, just not in a perfect grid), which lends to the smoothed appearance. With the right glass, film is still super sharp. More importantly, and this may be different with recent digital sensors, but I'm pretty sure film still has a wider Dynamic Range.
It's not a perfect representation due to the color palette (artistic choice) - but Children of Men has an awe-inspiring look due to the choice to use film as opposed to digital.
It's subtle, I will absolutely admit that - but it lends to a depth, detail, and dynamic range that is beyond gorgeous. Viewed on this generation of PDP, like the ST60, there's a punch to the depth perception, due to the treatment of even the subtle shadows (and thankfully, having the detail preserved in the digital transfer) - I felt that there was a pop to the image that created an illusion of three-dimensional depth - it had that "looking out the window" look.
Hell, I'd almost wager that movie had a better preservation of depth perception than some post-converted 3D movie scenes.
 
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Midwayman

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2000
5,723
325
126
Meh. 48 or 60 hz only looks odd for film because people have lived their whole lives with crappy low frame rates. Give it long enough and everyone will wonder how they ever dealt with such low frame rates. Of course that's native frames.

Interpolation can look odd just because its creating frames from nothing. Totally different thing.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
I've had this one for~7 years.

Replaced two bulbs in that time.

Yeah, I'm very familiar with that one.
I've been scouring for good LEDs though, and a more affordable approach to instant-on whenever the TV is turned on.

I'll probably have to settle on cinemaquest's products.


But see, that's what annoys me - you've already replaced two bulbs in seven years?
Do you use one bulb/light bar at a time, or do you have two running to cover your enter display area?
Are the ballasts internal to the bulb, or is there a distinct/replaceable ballast in the light bar itself?

If you've only replaced two bulbs once each, that's not too bad. If you're already on a third bulb, ugh. That's why I dislike fluorescent (are these straight fluorescent, or CCFL? (cold cathode, not compact). Regardless, such lighting tech typically struggles with excessive on/off cycles. Wonderful for once on/off a day or constant light, but for home use, LED has proved the way to go. Just, temperature and CRI seems to still be sub-par in comparison.
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,716
417
126
tbqhwy.com
At night, it's absolutely perfect. I am thinking of bias lighting, but I'm waiting to find just the right and most practical solution, with the best CRI and most accurate temperature.

the LEDs i useds to use as a bias light came from china (ebay) and were pure white and had a remote. worked pretty awesomly TBH i looked into getting a serious one but for 15$ the ones from china work fine
 
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