Party of free choice???

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: MonkeyK
As a non-smoker, I don't see what the big deal is. Let the market sort it out. People who don't want to work or eat in smoky restaurants or bars can go to the ones that are "No Smoking" places. People who don't mind can go to the ones that allow smoking.
I would not go to the places that allow smoking, but I wouldn't begrudge smokers a place of their own.

You make the assumption that people would have that choice. And while some do the poor people generally have less choice. Tell a single mother of 2 that she can't work in a fine dining restaurant as a waitress to raise her children in a lower middle/middle class unless shes willing to inhale smoke. People ignore the fact that those serving them are human as well. If you have never had to serve a day in your life or have always had the luxury to make choices then you don't understand the reality for many people.

:roll: This argument is one of the most retarded of all. You are not "forced" to work anywhere and trying to trot out the "poor" is nothing but an attempt to use emotion in place of logic and reason.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So I'm sitting with my family in a restaurant. CAD comes in and decides to fire one up and blow smoke at my son who has asthma. I'm now supposed to get up and leave.

Instead I think that perhaps I should defend my son and throw a bucket of water on him. It's my right.

Son, you do that to my kid you are going to be in soooooooooo much trouble.

You take your asthmatic son to bars/restaruants that allow smoking?

Do you drive him around in the city?


I'm sorry, but if my child had a condition like that, I sure as hell wouldn't take him into an establishment that allowed smoking. Sheesh.

You actually think that if smoking was allowed at restaruants that any of them would disallow it? Sure they'd have non smoking sections but that really doesn't work.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So I'm sitting with my family in a restaurant. CAD comes in and decides to fire one up and blow smoke at my son who has asthma. I'm now supposed to get up and leave.

Instead I think that perhaps I should defend my son and throw a bucket of water on him. It's my right.

Son, you do that to my kid you are going to be in soooooooooo much trouble.

You take your asthmatic son to bars/restaruants that allow smoking?

Do you drive him around in the city?


I'm sorry, but if my child had a condition like that, I sure as hell wouldn't take him into an establishment that allowed smoking. Sheesh.

You are being a bit disingenuous to say the least. Trying to retreat from that flimsy bridge you built I see.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: MonkeyK
As a non-smoker, I don't see what the big deal is. Let the market sort it out. People who don't want to work or eat in smoky restaurants or bars can go to the ones that are "No Smoking" places. People who don't mind can go to the ones that allow smoking.
I would not go to the places that allow smoking, but I wouldn't begrudge smokers a place of their own.

You make the assumption that people would have that choice. And while some do the poor people generally have less choice. Tell a single mother of 2 that she can't work in a fine dining restaurant as a waitress to raise her children in a lower middle/middle class unless shes willing to inhale smoke. People ignore the fact that those serving them are human as well. If you have never had to serve a day in your life or have always had the luxury to make choices then you don't understand the reality for many people.

:roll: This argument is one of the most retarded of all. You are not "forced" to work anywhere and trying to trot out the "poor" is nothing but an attempt to use emotion in place of logic and reason.

People are forced to earning a living in our society or else face destitution. Some do not have the luxury of being able to pick and choose jobs where smoking would be frowned upon if there were no laws against it. When the rent is due it is due no matter what.

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY


:roll: This argument is one of the most retarded of all. You are not "forced" to work anywhere and trying to trot out the "poor" is nothing but an attempt to use emotion in place of logic and reason.

I'm a very logical person I don't feel as though my logic is flawed at all. I'm sorry that you don't understand this point. It's a big problem in this country that the "haves" can't relate to the "have nots" You also probably think 15% is a good tip.

Your argument really doesn't matter though, the people,, the democracy if you will, have mostly decided that the health of many isn't worth the rights of a few. I'm sure the bible belt is different and your welcome to live there. I on the other hand live in Beverly hills and we just banned smoking on patios. So now I can eat my brunch outside in the nice weather and not have to worry about all of the smokers smoking "outside".

 

[MonkeyK]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So I'm sitting with my family in a restaurant. CAD comes in and decides to fire one up and blow smoke at my son who has asthma. I'm now supposed to get up and leave.

Instead I think that perhaps I should defend my son and throw a bucket of water on him. It's my right.

Son, you do that to my kid you are going to be in soooooooooo much trouble.

You take your asthmatic son to bars/restaruants that allow smoking?

Do you drive him around in the city?


I'm sorry, but if my child had a condition like that, I sure as hell wouldn't take him into an establishment that allowed smoking. Sheesh.

You actually think that if smoking was allowed at restaruants that any of them would disallow it? Sure they'd have non smoking sections but that really doesn't work.

Which makes restaurants which allow smoking less attractive to non-smokers. Don't like restaurants that allow smoking? Don't go to them (I wouldn't). Ultimately, the restaurant has to decide from whom they hope to make their money.

 

[JSt0rm]

they will pick both monkeyk as is the example since non-smoking sections were established ohh i dunno 25 years ago. That means that sometmes workers will HAVE to be in those areas. It's not a choice like it is for the consumer.

 

[MonkeyK]

Could be that they would pick both. As such I would not attend such a restaurant. However, I think that you underestimate how much people are anti-smoking these days. I would bet that a large number of restaurants would proudly declare themselves non-smoking establishments

 

[Bitek]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So I'm sitting with my family in a restaurant. CAD comes in and decides to fire one up and blow smoke at my son who has asthma. I'm now supposed to get up and leave.

Instead I think that perhaps I should defend my son and throw a bucket of water on him. It's my right.

Son, you do that to my kid you are going to be in soooooooooo much trouble.

You take your asthmatic son to bars/restaruants that allow smoking?

Do you drive him around in the city?


I'm sorry, but if my child had a condition like that, I sure as hell wouldn't take him into an establishment that allowed smoking. Sheesh.

Yeah HR, you should lock you kid in a bubble. You shouldn't be letting him out in the world where his condition may offend someone's "civil liberties."

 

[SleepWalkerX]

Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Could be that they would pick both. As such I would not attend such a restaurant. However, I think that you underestimate how much people are anti-smoking these days. I would bet that a large number of restaurants would proudly declare themselves non-smoking establishments

Honestly. I drive down the closest major road next to my house and count all the smoking establishments and only come up with three (maybe four, I haven't been to this one place) out of 100+. It happens to be the Chili's, Applebee's, some random club place, and one fine cuisine restaurant. Every single other place chooses to prohibit smoking.

That's why this whole thing sounds completely unreasonable.

 

[Bitek]

The smoking ban is actually a big accommodation to businesses as a way to not have to follow OSHA requirements of exposure to hazardous materials in the workplace, as far as cigarette smoke goes.

To be treated consistently with other hazardous fumes, employers would have to set up plans to limit exposure to such chemicals in the workplace. These include paying for and providing expensive environmental controls to help limit exposure, adhering to Permissive Exposure Limits, which may limit work hours, tracking the health of employees and providing routine health exams, and conduct periodic audits to show the health plan was being followed properly and all protective equipment was functioning adequately.

Its far less messy and expensive to just ban smoking in restaurants outright and compromise by giving bars and nightclubs a pass. Its a win for everyone but the certain smokers who become defensive and angry over anything that may interfere their drug habit.

 

[imported_Baloo]

Originally posted by: teiresias
Yeah, but if I'm the DD of my group I'm not going to get accidentally intoxicated via second-hand liquor.

True, but the drunk driver that kills you on the street ...your not thinking things thru.

 

[Gaard]

Smoking = bad for you & me
Banning smoking = government sticking their nose where they shouldn't

What's more important to you? I'm going to go ahead and predict that the majority of nonsmokers feel the top one is more important and the majority of smokers feel the bottom one is more important.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So I'm sitting with my family in a restaurant. CAD comes in and decides to fire one up and blow smoke at my son who has asthma. I'm now supposed to get up and leave.

Instead I think that perhaps I should defend my son and throw a bucket of water on him. It's my right.

Son, you do that to my kid you are going to be in soooooooooo much trouble.

You take your asthmatic son to bars/restaruants that allow smoking?

Do you drive him around in the city?


I'm sorry, but if my child had a condition like that, I sure as hell wouldn't take him into an establishment that allowed smoking. Sheesh.

No, but if I am sitting in a restaurant and you decide to light one up to express your right, then you are getting wet if you don't get it. I won't come and sit down next to you if you are smoking, but the pro smoking nazis often love to do shit like that. I've seen it happen, but fortunately for them it was before kids.

This is a public health issue. Like yelling "fire" and swinging your fist, you can do it, but not where it would cause demonstrated harm. I'm for the govt staying out of some things, however while I support the right to do things like own a gun, I don't support setting up paper targets in a city street.

You've said that if it's an issue, it should be banned. What if you are an idiot? A person should have the legal right to make a fool out of themselves, but once that crosses the line and harms someone else, then that's the end of that. Want to smoke? OK, but if you haven't the sense that God, the Universe or Bill the Cat (depending on your preference) gave you against harming someone else then you become target for government regulation or a pitcher of water, whichever comes first.

Now if someone wants to start a PRIVATE restaurant where smokers only are allowed, and the employees consent to it, then fine. Be idiots together. Yes, I would be perfectly fine with being excluded from it.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So I'm sitting with my family in a restaurant. CAD comes in and decides to fire one up and blow smoke at my son who has asthma. I'm now supposed to get up and leave.

Instead I think that perhaps I should defend my son and throw a bucket of water on him. It's my right.

Son, you do that to my kid you are going to be in soooooooooo much trouble.

You take your asthmatic son to bars/restaruants that allow smoking?

Do you drive him around in the city?


I'm sorry, but if my child had a condition like that, I sure as hell wouldn't take him into an establishment that allowed smoking. Sheesh.

You actually think that if smoking was allowed at restaruants that any of them would disallow it? Sure they'd have non smoking sections but that really doesn't work.

Yes, there is no "ban" yet in Iowa but there are MANY places that have gone smoke-free by choice(which is the way it should be). Many clubs downtown have gone smoke free too.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: MonkeyK
As a non-smoker, I don't see what the big deal is. Let the market sort it out. People who don't want to work or eat in smoky restaurants or bars can go to the ones that are "No Smoking" places. People who don't mind can go to the ones that allow smoking.
I would not go to the places that allow smoking, but I wouldn't begrudge smokers a place of their own.

You make the assumption that people would have that choice. And while some do the poor people generally have less choice. Tell a single mother of 2 that she can't work in a fine dining restaurant as a waitress to raise her children in a lower middle/middle class unless shes willing to inhale smoke. People ignore the fact that those serving them are human as well. If you have never had to serve a day in your life or have always had the luxury to make choices then you don't understand the reality for many people.

:roll: This argument is one of the most retarded of all. You are not "forced" to work anywhere and trying to trot out the "poor" is nothing but an attempt to use emotion in place of logic and reason.

People are forced to earning a living in our society or else face destitution. Some do not have the luxury of being able to pick and choose jobs where smoking would be frowned upon if there were no laws against it. When the rent is due it is due no matter what.

So you are still going to contend that people are "forced" to work at these places? :roll: It's nothing but a bunch of BS emotional string pulling. Every worker has the choice as to whether they want to work in that environment or not. It's not like it's hidden from them.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So I'm sitting with my family in a restaurant. CAD comes in and decides to fire one up and blow smoke at my son who has asthma. I'm now supposed to get up and leave.

Instead I think that perhaps I should defend my son and throw a bucket of water on him. It's my right.

Son, you do that to my kid you are going to be in soooooooooo much trouble.

You take your asthmatic son to bars/restaruants that allow smoking?

Do you drive him around in the city?


I'm sorry, but if my child had a condition like that, I sure as hell wouldn't take him into an establishment that allowed smoking. Sheesh.

No, but if I am sitting in a restaurant and you decide to light one up to express your right, then you are getting wet if you don't get it. I won't come and sit down next to you if you are smoking, but the pro smoking nazis often love to do shit like that. I've seen it happen, but fortunately for them it was before kids.

This is a public health issue. Like yelling "fire" and swinging your fist, you can do it, but not where it would cause demonstrated harm. I'm for the govt staying out of some things, however while I support the right to do things like own a gun, I don't support setting up paper targets in a city street.

You've said that if it's an issue, it should be banned. What if you are an idiot? A person should have the legal right to make a fool out of themselves, but once that crosses the line and harms someone else, then that's the end of that. Want to smoke? OK, but if you haven't the sense that God, the Universe or Bill the Cat (depending on your preference) gave you against harming someone else then you become target for government regulation or a pitcher of water, whichever comes first.

Now if someone wants to start a PRIVATE restaurant where smokers only are allowed, and the employees consent to it, then fine. Be idiots together. Yes, I would be perfectly fine with being excluded from it.

Pssttt - A bar is a privately owned business(in many cases) so they should be able to make the decision - correct? These aren't gov't establishments - they're private businesses that shouldn't be forced by the gov't to disallow smoking.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So I'm sitting with my family in a restaurant. CAD comes in and decides to fire one up and blow smoke at my son who has asthma. I'm now supposed to get up and leave.

Instead I think that perhaps I should defend my son and throw a bucket of water on him. It's my right.

Son, you do that to my kid you are going to be in soooooooooo much trouble.

You take your asthmatic son to bars/restaruants that allow smoking?

Do you drive him around in the city?


I'm sorry, but if my child had a condition like that, I sure as hell wouldn't take him into an establishment that allowed smoking. Sheesh.

No, but if I am sitting in a restaurant and you decide to light one up to express your right, then you are getting wet if you don't get it. I won't come and sit down next to you if you are smoking, but the pro smoking nazis often love to do shit like that. I've seen it happen, but fortunately for them it was before kids.

This is a public health issue. Like yelling "fire" and swinging your fist, you can do it, but not where it would cause demonstrated harm. I'm for the govt staying out of some things, however while I support the right to do things like own a gun, I don't support setting up paper targets in a city street.

You've said that if it's an issue, it should be banned. What if you are an idiot? A person should have the legal right to make a fool out of themselves, but once that crosses the line and harms someone else, then that's the end of that. Want to smoke? OK, but if you haven't the sense that God, the Universe or Bill the Cat (depending on your preference) gave you against harming someone else then you become target for government regulation or a pitcher of water, whichever comes first.

Now if someone wants to start a PRIVATE restaurant where smokers only are allowed, and the employees consent to it, then fine. Be idiots together. Yes, I would be perfectly fine with being excluded from it.

Pssttt - A bar is a privately owned business(in many cases) so they should be able to make the decision - correct? These aren't gov't establishments - they're private businesses that shouldn't be forced by the gov't to disallow smoking.

No. Meat packing businesses are private, and as you know they are regulated. Why? Because it's a health issue.

Private meant (as you know) that there would be legal grounds for refusal to admit the general non smoking public. All that would be required would be a signature indicating that the individual consents to smoking before hand, not get inside and find out that someone is going to light up. The written part would be to protect the restaurant from shark lawyers.

Put up "Smokers only allowed on premises" if you like. As far as that goes, make a BotuBurger joint and eat up, but only those who EXPRESSLY consent to eating it can come in and do so.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So I'm sitting with my family in a restaurant. CAD comes in and decides to fire one up and blow smoke at my son who has asthma. I'm now supposed to get up and leave.

Instead I think that perhaps I should defend my son and throw a bucket of water on him. It's my right.

Son, you do that to my kid you are going to be in soooooooooo much trouble.

Kind of like Bush did with Iraq? CAD has WMD's!!!

Seriously, that is why they have smoking sections in resturants, isn't it? Your also not addressing the bar issue, or do you take your son there as well?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: MonkeyK
As a non-smoker, I don't see what the big deal is. Let the market sort it out. People who don't want to work or eat in smoky restaurants or bars can go to the ones that are "No Smoking" places. People who don't mind can go to the ones that allow smoking.
I would not go to the places that allow smoking, but I wouldn't begrudge smokers a place of their own.

You make the assumption that people would have that choice. And while some do the poor people generally have less choice. Tell a single mother of 2 that she can't work in a fine dining restaurant as a waitress to raise her children in a lower middle/middle class unless shes willing to inhale smoke. People ignore the fact that those serving them are human as well. If you have never had to serve a day in your life or have always had the luxury to make choices then you don't understand the reality for many people.

:roll: This argument is one of the most retarded of all. You are not "forced" to work anywhere and trying to trot out the "poor" is nothing but an attempt to use emotion in place of logic and reason.

People are forced to earning a living in our society or else face destitution. Some do not have the luxury of being able to pick and choose jobs where smoking would be frowned upon if there were no laws against it. When the rent is due it is due no matter what.

As someone who worked in a machine/weld shop for over 20 years I laugh when I see this argument used. I got severely sick sometime between the last half of Feb. and the end of March every single year there I worked there, but not once since I left.

Dressing up the smoking in resturants issue as an OSHA/worker saftey issue is.... well, laughable. Quit using that as an excuse, because clearly that's all it is.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So I'm sitting with my family in a restaurant. CAD comes in and decides to fire one up and blow smoke at my son who has asthma. I'm now supposed to get up and leave.

Instead I think that perhaps I should defend my son and throw a bucket of water on him. It's my right.

Son, you do that to my kid you are going to be in soooooooooo much trouble.

Kind of like Bush did with Iraq? CAD has WMD's!!!

Seriously, that is why they have smoking sections in resturants, isn't it? Your also not addressing the bar issue, or do you take your son there as well?

Smoking sections!!! But but you are discriminating! Smokers should have the right to make other's breathe their smoke, and certainly restaurant owners should too :roll:

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek
Non Smokers afraid of the effects of second hand smoke going into a business that allows smoking = stupid, ...

why?

That answer is obvious. Any restrictions on the right of when/where/how smokers are allowed to feed their addiction is right out of 'FASCIST FREAKING GERMANY'. You pretty much know someone has a weak argument when they go to the 'Hitler' card'.

Hows about you grow some of dem dere brain cells there botard. The argument has nothing to freaking do with a smokers "right to smoke," it's about the business owner choosing whether or not it's allowed in THEIR place of business. However, a bunch of fascist pigs who refuse to leave people to exercise their legal rights are going to screw that up by passing infringing fascist laws to prohibit a legal activity in a private business. It's not a weak argument whatsoever. You who would take away a business owners rights to protect your perceived right to go into that individuals place of business and have it run the way YOU say are in fact a fascist. Not because you want it done your way, but because you think the government has a right to dictate how that business owner runs his business. The Hitler card applies quite nicely here.

Hey genius... It's not *ME* regulating when/where people can smoke. I'm simply agreeing with the *government* decision to regulate when/where people can smoke. You want to defend the business owners and their rights? Have at it. That said, the business owners need to follow the rules, regulations, laws, etc where their businesses reside.

Alcohol is a drug and it is regulated. The same 'fascists' already regulate when/where alcohol can be served and consumed. Now some of them are regulating when/where people can smoke. If you think that makes me/them a Hitler-like fascist, you're the 'botard'.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So I'm sitting with my family in a restaurant. CAD comes in and decides to fire one up and blow smoke at my son who has asthma. I'm now supposed to get up and leave.

Instead I think that perhaps I should defend my son and throw a bucket of water on him. It's my right.

Son, you do that to my kid you are going to be in soooooooooo much trouble.

Kind of like Bush did with Iraq? CAD has WMD's!!!

Seriously, that is why they have smoking sections in resturants, isn't it? Your also not addressing the bar issue, or do you take your son there as well?

Smoking sections!!! But but you are discriminating! Smokers should have the right to make other's breathe their smoke, and certainly restaurant owners should too :roll:

Democracy is based on the ability to choose. The owners of the resturants and bars, the smokers, and the non smokers should all have the right to make whatever choice they deem fit.

It is you who are attempting to ram YOUR choice down everybody else's throats.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Baloo

Originally posted by: teiresias
Yeah, but if I'm the DD of my group I'm not going to get accidentally intoxicated via second-hand liquor.

True, but the drunk driver that kills you on the street ...your not thinking things thru.

(sigh) Driving drunk is ILLEGAL and there are severe penalties.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So I'm sitting with my family in a restaurant. CAD comes in and decides to fire one up and blow smoke at my son who has asthma. I'm now supposed to get up and leave.

Instead I think that perhaps I should defend my son and throw a bucket of water on him. It's my right.

Son, you do that to my kid you are going to be in soooooooooo much trouble.

Kind of like Bush did with Iraq? CAD has WMD's!!!

Seriously, that is why they have smoking sections in resturants, isn't it? Your also not addressing the bar issue, or do you take your son there as well?

Smoking sections!!! But but you are discriminating! Smokers should have the right to make other's breathe their smoke, and certainly restaurant owners should too :roll:

Democracy is based on the ability to choose. The owners of the resturants and bars, the smokers, and the non smokers should all have the right to make whatever choice they deem fit.

It is you who are attempting to ram YOUR choice down everybody else's throats.

Wrong. We (Floridians) had the ability to choose and we did - overwhelmingly in favor of 'The Florida Clean Indoor Air Act'...

Amendment 6 was passed by 71 percent of the voters in the Nov. 5 election and won a majority in all of Florida's 67 counties.

Are you done now?