Passwords, why not 2 or 3 little ones instead of 1 big one

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88keys

Golden Member
Aug 24, 2012
1,854
12
81
Another vote for biometrics. But people are just too paranoid. OMGZ!1!!111 tha government is gonna get your fingerprints!

And yet those same people are the ones who have shitty passwords and leave their wifi unsecured.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,129
1,604
126
Whats your logic behind that? Most brute-forcing is done through dictionary attacking, hence, aN@ndt3ch wouldn't be in a given word list, IN ADDITION to the variation in caps.

It wouldn't be very hard to use a dictionary attack in which it takes a group of words and attacks with all word on the lists in variations of 3-6 words per guess.

Ehh, dictionary based attacks done with tools like JTR can and will search for all variations of using numbers in place of letters and upper and lower case .. now 8 characters long, and allowing for special characters like @ to substitute for letters, certainly means MUCH bigger scope to search through..

Doing brute force, long string obviously is harder with intelligent dictionary attacks, neither is particularly strong.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,686
7,912
126
Whats your logic behind that? Most brute-forcing is done through dictionary attacking, hence, aN@ndt3ch wouldn't be in a given word list, IN ADDITION to the variation in caps.

It wouldn't be very hard to use a dictionary attack in which it takes a group of words and attacks with all word on the lists in variations of 3-6 words per guess.

The length makes the other more secure. A good dictionary will cover common substitutions like @, 3, !, and so on...
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
Perhaps I'm wrong here, but it seems it would be a bit too much to take EVERY dictionary word and try all forms of capitalization, as well as all forms of l33t speak in combination with caps for every single word. Plus, most logins are more tight on security these days with policies such as only x # of attempts.

Back in my days of cracking porn site logins in my younger years, it took a shitload just to go through a simple combolist. Plus it was a pain trying to find enough proxies as well
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,686
7,912
126
Perhaps I'm wrong here, but it seems it would be a bit too much to take EVERY dictionary word and try all forms of capitalization, as well as all forms of l33t speak in combination with caps for every single word. Plus, most logins are more tight on security these days with policies such as only x # of attempts.

Back in my days of cracking porn site logins in my younger years, it took a shitload just to go through a simple combolist. Plus it was a pain trying to find enough proxies as well

It's trivially easy, especially if you're using gpus/clusters. It's not someone pounding a web login. They're crunching numbers against a leaked database.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
I remember reading an article a while back that said with today's computing power, it is safer and easier to remember to have a website that makes you enter 2 or 3 passwords that aren't restricted instead of 1 long one.

So it would load a page like

Login: *****

Password 1: ***

Password 2: ****

instead of having 1 long ass password like they require at my work which looks like

Login: *******

Password: ABcdghi!@123


Why haven't we moved over to a 2 or 3 password log in yet if it is safer?

That would likely be less insecure than using those same two or three passwords in a single password. Essentially multiple layers of passwords mean the potential hacker gets confirmation of success along the way, so the entire process is only as strong as your weakest password.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Password1
Password2

Those secret questions essentially do that now.

Secret questions are shit.

"What school did you go to?"

"What was your mother's maiden name?"

Gee, I'm sure nobody on the planet could figure those things out...

I guess they want to make it easy for your friends and family to break into your stuff?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Passwords just need to die, entirely. Just, none. Multiple short ones, complex long ones... the average person will simply try to find ways to meet the bare minimum complexity requirements, and in doing so, continue to create exceptionally weak passwords.

Multi-factor with biometrics needs to become the standard.

What's wrong with passwords? With multifactor, even a short, easy to remember password adds another layer of authentication.

Something you have, something you are, and something you know.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Check different passwords here to see how it fares against a dictionary attack:

https://apps.cygnius.net/passtest/

It's not definitive by any means, but I find the way it works fascinating. It breaks your password into what it sees as pieces, and calculates the entropy per piece with the assumption of each piece being a brute force or dictionary attackable piece.
 
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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Whats your logic behind that? Most brute-forcing is done through dictionary attacking, hence, aN@ndt3ch wouldn't be in a given word list, IN ADDITION to the variation in caps.

It wouldn't be very hard to use a dictionary attack in which it takes a group of words and attacks with all word on the lists in variations of 3-6 words per guess.

Typical l33tsp3@k and lower/upper substitution is already built into cracking algorithms.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Do you use periods at the end? Do you use caps? First cap only or cap each word? Are all words from a single language? Do we have slang? Do we have numbers? Are there spaces?

Ippon means 1 point! or without spaces (easy enough to remember not to use spaces)
IpponMeans1Point!

How do we hit this with a dictionary any faster than

Ippon1Point! which most password checks say is a very secure password.

According to https://apps.cygnius.net/passtest/, your "secure" password will be cracked by a dictionary attack against a hash database in a matter of hours.

So.... nope.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
It's trivially easy, especially if you're using gpus/clusters. It's not someone pounding a web login. They're crunching numbers against a leaked database.

This. Nobody brute forces a login. Typical systems will lock you out after 3 to 5 failed attempts. The real treasure is in getting a leak of a hash database, where you can make millions of attempts per second.

Taking it a step further, , once you have someone's password, you likely also know their email address, there's a pretty good chance a bunch of those people use the same password everywhere. So you start going through email accounts until you find something juicy and start escalating from there. Find out where they work because they get their paycheck stub by email. Use their password that you already cracked on their employer's network. Now you have some level of access to a corporate network. From there you're on your way to getting the credit cards of every Sony customer.
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
9
81
Check different passwords here to see how it fares against a dictionary attack:

https://apps.cygnius.net/passtest/

It's not definitive by any means, but I find the way it works fascinating. It breaks your password into what it sees as pieces, and calculates the entropy per piece with the assumption of each piece being a brute force or dictionary attackable piece.

password: correcthorsebatterystaple
entropy: 44.91
composition: problems found
composition problems: Password must contain a number.
Password must contain an uppercase letter.
Password must contain a special character.
acceptable: no
crack time (seconds): 1652463192.478
crack time (display): 53 years
score from 0 to 4: 4
calculation time (ms): 1
match sequence:

password: c0Rr3c#tasdfg
entropy: 41.7
composition: ok
acceptable: yes
crack time (seconds): 178618648.5
crack time (display): 7 years
score from 0 to 4: 4
calculation time (ms): 3
match sequence:

Not sure that's a very good site, it's not bad, just not good. It makes the same assumptions about what's safe which approve a 7 year crack time but rejects a 53 year crack time.
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,037
21
81
Whats your logic behind that? Most brute-forcing is done through dictionary attacking, hence, aN@ndt3ch wouldn't be in a given word list, IN ADDITION to the variation in caps.

It wouldn't be very hard to use a dictionary attack in which it takes a group of words and attacks with all word on the lists in variations of 3-6 words per guess.

Common character replacement of dictionary words to accelerate password brute forcing is a tactic since the early days of l0phtcrack (over 10 years ago). With 1337speak and trailing numbers, even the typical "complex" password is still very easy to guess.

Go ahead and make that your Windows password, boot up with ERD Commander and see how long it takes to crack it.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
What's the difference between:
password1: asdf2
password2: ty7eu

And a single password: asdf2ty7eu??

Assuming letters and numbers only (to make it an easier calculation)

62^5+62^5 vs 62^10 or 1.8x10^9 vs 8.4x10^17.

So the single password is about 8 orders of magnitude stronger vs brute force.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
I never understand the logic of required password changes. There 98% of people are GUARANTEED going to just add 1 to their passwords. No question. The human brain can't keep up with a new worded password every 60 days, in addition to adding it to the HUGE vault of different password requirements that they already have to remember.
I guess it's the best you can do when you're using a security system that's thousands of years old.





Check different passwords here to see how it fares against a dictionary attack:

https://apps.cygnius.net/passtest/

It's not definitive by any means, but I find the way it works fascinating. It breaks your password into what it sees as pieces, and calculates the entropy per piece with the assumption of each piece being a brute force or dictionary attackable piece.
"Congratulations, your password wasn't in the dictionary. Wasn't."



Secret questions are shit.

"What school did you go to?"

"What was your mother's maiden name?"

Gee, I'm sure nobody on the planet could figure those things out...

I guess they want to make it easy for your friends and family to break into your stuff?
What school? l;je45wgfQ#@F%
Maiden name? Massive iPhone

No one said you have to answer those questions honestly.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,936
12,384
126
www.anyf.ca
I guess it's the best you can do when you're using a security system that's thousands of years old.





"Congratulations, your password wasn't in the dictionary. Wasn't."



What school? l;je45wgfQ#@F%
Maiden name? Massive iPhone

No one said you have to answer those questions honestly.

What I hate is sites that will randomly ask one of those questions at login. Then it forces you to put something that you have to track. They need to do way with the security questions period. They make the process less secure not more.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
This is why if you can write in different languages other than English, it will help a lot.
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,840
617
121
This is like people 100 years ago discussing if mechanical horses should be made of wood or iron.

In the eighties and nineties there was a project at MIT that was called "Kerberos".

From the wiki-page: "Kerberos /ˈkərbərəs/ is a computer network authentication protocol which works on the basis of 'tickets' to allow nodes communicating over a non-secure network to prove their identity to one another in a secure manner".

The goal is very simple.
When you log into your computer, you type your password once. Your computer talks to a Kerberos-server, and gets a ticket. A ticket is cryptographic information that is used when you authenticate to other computers or services. Suppose you want to log in into a website, cryptographic information is exchanged between your computer, your Kerberos-server, the website and the website's Kerberos-server. All done in an encypted way, that can not be replayed, etc. Basically once logged in, you can access all services you are entitled to, without ever having to retype your password. (Unless specifically asked).

I used to think this was the direction we were moving in. But it turns out we have made zero progress towards better and easier authentication. Microsoft has used Kerberos for their Windows authentication. (And I must admit, I hate Windows authentication. But not because of the underlying architecture, but probably because of the implementation and terrible documentation and UI). But besides Microsoft, I don't think Kerberos didn't go anywhere. And there do not seem to be new projects that have a similar goal. Such a shame.

In the nineties we developed protocols for the Internet.
Protocols that could be used for free by all people in the world, and all companies in the world.
I think this is the basis for the success of the net.
Those days are over.
Nowadays we only see individual companies developing their own service and product.

A few become successful (facebook, twitter). Most fail. But in all cases, the technology and the protocols are owned by individual companies. It might seem cool that you can post a twitter message. But in fact, technology-wise we are regressing back into the dark ages.

This is interesting. I never new about this project. I had a similar idea one day in one of my brain storming sessions laying in bed. It seems every time I think of something it has already been thought of before, or it's been patented. Many years ago I talked to an engineer whom I talked to in the magazine section at the store. He gave me his business card and so I wanted to see if he'd be interested in helping me develop a new idea I had. Long story short he told me that if you have a new idea about the manufacturing process, that is where the money is at. Makes sense I guess. I mean think about it. The sheer precision and awe with the machinery that makes things.

I do have one, just one idea that I have not seen made. And if I can just find the time and money I could use a CAD-like program and draw the damn thing. I did make a prototype and when I showed it to my family they laughed. Has to do with fishing. One day my freaking ship will come in.
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,840
617
121
That sounds like the combination an idiot would have on his luggage!


You'd actually be surprised. I have a massive password list and some of the passwords people use is mind boggling.
 
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John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,840
617
121
Check different passwords here to see how it fares against a dictionary attack:

https://apps.cygnius.net/passtest/

It's not definitive by any means, but I find the way it works fascinating. It breaks your password into what it sees as pieces, and calculates the entropy per piece with the assumption of each piece being a brute force or dictionary attackable piece.


These websites should never be trusted. As I'm sure a good majority of them save the passwords and sell them.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
These websites should never be trusted. As I'm sure a good majority of them save the passwords and sell them.

Sure, that's fine.

Don't literally use your own password, only an idiot would do that. Instead, use one that is similar to the style of your password: is it a 20 character unintelligible sentence, or is it a 10 character keyboard mash? The results will give you an idea as to the safety of your actual password(s).
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
"Congratulations, your password wasn't in the dictionary. Wasn't."

Heh, yep. Once you've put it on the internet in cleartext, the password is no longer good.

What school? l;je45wgfQ#@F%
Maiden name? Massive iPhone

No one said you have to answer those questions honestly.

True, but then they're just additional passwords that you aren't likely to remember.
 
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