Pat Tillman Not A Hero

[NT4Mike]

How easy it must be to sit in the comfort of a college campus and slander the service of another person?

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, or the war on Terror, it is the decision of our President and Congress that we participate. Service members have taken the oath to serve the country no matter what their thoughts on the conflict or issue at hand. This oath is not to be taken lightly. It is about honor and integrity. If you have never served, you may never fully understand its meaning.

If you happen to feel that the media uses the term hero a little too much for your liking, then I would suggest that you spend some time in reflection. A man or woman doesn?t have to dive on a grenade or save 50 children to be a hero. The fact that they made a sacrifice for the greater good makes them a hero to someone. Whether you agree or not, you don?t have the right to make light of their contribution. It?s easy to sit at a computer and disrespect the memory of a fallen service member, but would you still, when they are folding the flag and handing it to a soldier?s mother or wife, dare tell them that their son or daughter was not a hero?

The years that I spent in service to this country were some of the best and worst years of my life. By grace of God, I did not lose my life as a result of my service. I have no regrets for my service.

You don?t have to agree with the conflict, but every soldier out there deserves your respect. They have earned it. If you don?t think they have, then put up your right hand and take the oath.

Mike

 

[Pocatello]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
He has my respect for giving up his huge contract to join the rangers... but I have a little stronger definition of hero. Simply dying during a conflict doesn't make someone a hero. Locally, we had a young man (from 20 or 30 miles from here) who threw himself in front of an enemy grenade, shielding 2 other soldiers, and avoiding all 3 getting killed. That's the kind of selfless act that makes someone a hero. Tillman is no more a hero than any of the other soldiers who have died in these conflicts.

So he gave up a few million $$ to go to fight in Afghanistan. And, that makes him a better person than someone who had a minimum wage job to go to Afghanistan and also got killed?!

You mean what Tillman did was not a selfless act?

 

[Anubis]

sorry for the stupid question but who is Pat Tillman?

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Pocatello

Originally posted by: DrPizza
He has my respect for giving up his huge contract to join the rangers... but I have a little stronger definition of hero. Simply dying during a conflict doesn't make someone a hero. Locally, we had a young man (from 20 or 30 miles from here) who threw himself in front of an enemy grenade, shielding 2 other soldiers, and avoiding all 3 getting killed. That's the kind of selfless act that makes someone a hero. Tillman is no more a hero than any of the other soldiers who have died in these conflicts.

So he gave up a few million $$ to go to fight in Afghanistan. And, that makes him a better person than someone who had a minimum wage job to go to Afghanistan and also got killed?!

You mean what Tillman did was not a selfless act?

I suppose you could say that joining the Army was a selfless act, but I don't think he thought the odds of actually getting killed were too high. If I recall correctly from the one or two articles (of the 1000's) that I've actually read, didn't he get ambushed while on routine patrol? Ultimately, having such a high profile death in the army is going to have a negative effect on enrollment in the armed services. If I've heard correctly, a lot of students are now reconsidering whether they want to enlist or not after graduation.

 

[jhu]

as someone mentioned before, he's not any more of a hero than the other soldiers who have died.

 

[gregshin]

anybody call this facker yet?

 

[Turkish]

Originally posted by: toekramp

Originally posted by: Xiety

Originally posted by: jpeyton
He wasn't an idiot, but I agree that he wasn't a hero either.

I agree.

Basar don't be an ass

please explain to me how I am being an ass, ass.

 

[GoodToGo]

Originally posted by: Epiphany
there are no heros in war.

Depends on the side you are cheering for.

 

[miniMUNCH]

A guy like Rene that will accept US dollars to pay for his US education and then put sh1t like that out...all I can say is, "what a dog".

 

[przero]

Forget the hero deal, what about you PR's paying income tax????

 

[Epiphany]

Originally posted by: GoodToGo

Originally posted by: Epiphany
there are no heros in war.

Depends on the side you are cheering for.

I don't think so. Some would say war brings out the "best of people" ie. comraderie, nationalism, heroism, etc.; but that is only because the worst qualities of people insinuated the war in the first place (WWII, Desert Storm). There are no heros in war, only people fighting/dying.

 

[przero]

"There are no heros in war, only people fighting/dying. "

That is utterly ridiculous!

 

[przero]

Here are 2 shining examples of heroism!
*GORDON, GARY I.

Rank and organization: Master Sergeant, U.S. Army. Place and date: 3 October 1993, Mogadishu, Somalia. Entered service at: ----- Born: Lincoln, Maine. Citation: Master Sergeant Gordon, United States Army, distinguished himself by actions above and beyond the call of duty on 3 October 1993, while serving as Sniper Team Leader, United States Army Special Operations Command with Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia. Master Sergeant Gordon's sniper team provided precision fires from the lead helicopter during an assault and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires. When Master Sergeant Gordon learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the second crash site, he and another sniper unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After his third request to be inserted, Master Sergeant Gordon received permission to perform his volunteer mission. When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Master Sergeant Gordon was inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon and his fellow sniper, while under intense small arms fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members. Master Sergeant Gordon immediately pulled the pilot and the other crew members from the aircraft, establishing a perimeter which placed him and his fellow sniper in the most vulnerable position. Master Sergeant Gordon used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers until he depleted his ammunition. Master Sergeant Gordon then went back to the wreckage, recovering some of the crew's weapons and ammunition. Despite the fact that he was critically low on ammunition, he provided some of it to the dazed pilot and then radioed for help. Master Sergeant Gordon continued to travel the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. After his team member was fatally wounded and his own rifle ammunition exhausted, Master Sergeant Gordon returned to the wreckage, recovering a rifle with the last five rounds of ammunition and gave it to the pilot with the words, "good luck." Then, armed only with his pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon continued to fight until he was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot's life. Master Sergeant Gordon's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, his unit and the United States Army.

*SHUGHART, RANDALL D.

Rank and organization: Sergeant First Class, U.S. Army. Place and date: 3 October 1993, Mogadishu, Somalia. Entered service at: ----- Born: Newville, Pennsylvania. Citation: Sergeant First Class Shughart, United States Army, distinguished himself by actions above and beyond the call of duty on 3 October 1993, while serving as a Sniper Team Member, United States Army Special Operations Command with Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia. Sergeant First Class Shughart provided precision sniper fires from the lead helicopter during an assault on a building and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires. While providing critical suppressive fires at the second crash site, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the site. Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After their third request to be inserted, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader received permission to perform this volunteer mission. When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader were inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader, while under intense small arms fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members. Sergeant First Class Shughart pulled the pilot and the other crew members from the aircraft, establishing a perimeter which placed him and his fellow sniper in the most vulnerable position. Sergeant First Class Shughart used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers while traveling the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. Sergeant First Class Shughart continued his protective fire until he depleted his ammunition and was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot's life. Sergeant First Class Shughart's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, his unit and the United States Army.

 

[Kev]

Originally posted by: mattlear
While I applaud the concept of free speech, I think this gonzalez guy is a freaking tool.

That's like the folks who burn flags in the US and then say "it's my constitutional right!".

Macho, patriotic crap... unbelievable.

I'm sure this clown is going to get some threats up at school. And I'm sure the school will assign some "patriotic rambo" to protecting him and provide security.

I know there are thousands of other young men and women who gave their lives to protect the U.S. and it's freedoms. Pat Tillman just happened to be more high profile because he walked away from millions and from a lucrative future to do something he believed in. That does not lessen his sacrifice, nor does being impressed by it lessen those who had "less" who also lost their lives.

Mr Gonzalez, you are a moron.

-Matt

You should post here more often. ATOT is in dire need of people who are able to make coherent sense.

 

[Goosemaster]

I didn't know they had computers in Mass.

 

[Queasy]

I got my issue of Sports Illustrated today with the Pat Tillman cover story. Very interesting read into his background that lead up to his decision to join the Army.

You can say that Tillman was or was not a hero based on your definition of what a hero may or may not be. However, I don't think that you can question his intentions or his honor. This was a man that always had love for his country and always felt like he should do more for it because of the opportunities he had been given. After 9/11 occurred, both he and his brother enlisted to serve and protect the millions of people living in the U.S.

FYI - The 'routine patrol' was not exactly routine. They were doing a patrol during the middle of an operation where the Pakistani army was flushing out Al-Qaeda and Taliban soldiers along the Afghanistan/Pakistan border while the U.S. forces would patrol the other side to take them out.

Another FYI - Re-enlistment numbers are above what was expected. New enlistments are in-line with expectations.

War is never pretty. War is never easy. It isn't supposed to be. But to disparage those who willingly serve their country to protect it take a special kind of cowardice.

 

[Epiphany]

Originally posted by: przero
Here are 2 shining examples of heroism!
*GORDON, GARY I.

Rank and organization: Master Sergeant, U.S. Army. Place and date: 3 October 1993, Mogadishu, Somalia. Entered service at: ----- Born: Lincoln, Maine. Citation: Master Sergeant Gordon, United States Army, distinguished himself by actions above and beyond the call of duty on 3 October 1993, while serving as Sniper Team Leader, United States Army Special Operations Command with Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia. Master Sergeant Gordon's sniper team provided precision fires from the lead helicopter during an assault and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires. When Master Sergeant Gordon learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the second crash site, he and another sniper unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After his third request to be inserted, Master Sergeant Gordon received permission to perform his volunteer mission. When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Master Sergeant Gordon was inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon and his fellow sniper, while under intense small arms fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members. Master Sergeant Gordon immediately pulled the pilot and the other crew members from the aircraft, establishing a perimeter which placed him and his fellow sniper in the most vulnerable position. Master Sergeant Gordon used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers until he depleted his ammunition. Master Sergeant Gordon then went back to the wreckage, recovering some of the crew's weapons and ammunition. Despite the fact that he was critically low on ammunition, he provided some of it to the dazed pilot and then radioed for help. Master Sergeant Gordon continued to travel the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. After his team member was fatally wounded and his own rifle ammunition exhausted, Master Sergeant Gordon returned to the wreckage, recovering a rifle with the last five rounds of ammunition and gave it to the pilot with the words, "good luck." Then, armed only with his pistol, Master Sergeant Gordon continued to fight until he was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot's life. Master Sergeant Gordon's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, his unit and the United States Army.

*SHUGHART, RANDALL D.

Rank and organization: Sergeant First Class, U.S. Army. Place and date: 3 October 1993, Mogadishu, Somalia. Entered service at: ----- Born: Newville, Pennsylvania. Citation: Sergeant First Class Shughart, United States Army, distinguished himself by actions above and beyond the call of duty on 3 October 1993, while serving as a Sniper Team Member, United States Army Special Operations Command with Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia. Sergeant First Class Shughart provided precision sniper fires from the lead helicopter during an assault on a building and at two helicopter crash sites, while subjected to intense automatic weapons and rocket propelled grenade fires. While providing critical suppressive fires at the second crash site, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader learned that ground forces were not immediately available to secure the site. Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader unhesitatingly volunteered to be inserted to protect the four critically wounded personnel, despite being well aware of the growing number of enemy personnel closing in on the site. After their third request to be inserted, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader received permission to perform this volunteer mission. When debris and enemy ground fires at the site caused them to abort the first attempt, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader were inserted one hundred meters south of the crash site. Equipped with only his sniper rifle and a pistol, Sergeant First Class Shughart and his team leader, while under intense small arms fire from the enemy, fought their way through a dense maze of shanties and shacks to reach the critically injured crew members. Sergeant First Class Shughart pulled the pilot and the other crew members from the aircraft, establishing a perimeter which placed him and his fellow sniper in the most vulnerable position. Sergeant First Class Shughart used his long range rifle and side arm to kill an undetermined number of attackers while traveling the perimeter, protecting the downed crew. Sergeant First Class Shughart continued his protective fire until he depleted his ammunition and was fatally wounded. His actions saved the pilot's life. Sergeant First Class Shughart's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, his unit and the United States Army.

maybe you don't get what I'm trying to get across. There are no heros in war because in war it's kill or be killed. Under circumstances like war, there should be no heros. You are there to kill. Pat Tillman was not a hero, but he sure was brave and patriotic. He was in Afghanistan to find/kill Osama Bin Laden. Just because war is a deadly situation doesn't make everyone who has fought/died a hero.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Epiphany
maybe you don't get what I'm trying to get across. There are no heros in war because in war it's kill or be killed. Under circumstances like war, there should be no heros. You are there to kill. Pat Tillman was not a hero, but he sure was brave and patriotic. He was in Afghanistan to find/kill Osama Bin Laden. Just because war is a deadly situation doesn't make everyone who has fought/died a hero.

What about those that fight and kill to save lives? Are they heros? Or just someone in an unfortunate situation? Do you realize that our troops that are in Iraq now put themselves in life-threating situations in order to spare the lives of civilians whom the enemy is hiding behind? It would be much easier for them just to send in a couple of AC-130 Gunships and mow down any area where enemy fire is originating. Instead, these troops are putting themselves in harm's way when they don't have to. I would consider that a certain brand of heroism.

 

[Epiphany]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Epiphany
maybe you don't get what I'm trying to get across. There are no heros in war because in war it's kill or be killed. Under circumstances like war, there should be no heros. You are there to kill. Pat Tillman was not a hero, but he sure was brave and patriotic. He was in Afghanistan to find/kill Osama Bin Laden. Just because war is a deadly situation doesn't make everyone who has fought/died a hero.

What about those that fight and kill to save lives? Are they heros? Or just someone in an unfortunate situation? Do you realize that our troops that are in Iraq now put themselves in life-threating situations in order to spare the lives of civilians whom the enemy is hiding behind? It would be much easier for them just to send in a couple of AC-130 Gunships and mow down any area where enemy fire is originating. Instead, these troops are putting themselves in harm's way when they don't have to. I would consider that a certain brand of heroism.

On another note. Does anyone think there are realistically heroes in the world today. I think at times people do heroic things, but does that mean they are deemed a hero there after? "Heroes" are for the books and legends, i say.

 

[amcdonald]

Originally posted by: Epiphany

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Epiphany
maybe you don't get what I'm trying to get across. There are no heros in war because in war it's kill or be killed. Under circumstances like war, there should be no heros. You are there to kill. Pat Tillman was not a hero, but he sure was brave and patriotic. He was in Afghanistan to find/kill Osama Bin Laden. Just because war is a deadly situation doesn't make everyone who has fought/died a hero.

What about those that fight and kill to save lives? Are they heros? Or just someone in an unfortunate situation? Do you realize that our troops that are in Iraq now put themselves in life-threating situations in order to spare the lives of civilians whom the enemy is hiding behind? It would be much easier for them just to send in a couple of AC-130 Gunships and mow down any area where enemy fire is originating. Instead, these troops are putting themselves in harm's way when they don't have to. I would consider that a certain brand of heroism.

On another note. Does anyone think there are realistically heroes in the world today. I think at times people do heroic things, but does that mean they are deemed a hero there after? "Heroes" are for the books and legends, i say.

On another note... you don't know what hero means.

 

[Epiphany]

Originally posted by: amcdonald

Originally posted by: Epiphany

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Epiphany
maybe you don't get what I'm trying to get across. There are no heros in war because in war it's kill or be killed. Under circumstances like war, there should be no heros. You are there to kill. Pat Tillman was not a hero, but he sure was brave and patriotic. He was in Afghanistan to find/kill Osama Bin Laden. Just because war is a deadly situation doesn't make everyone who has fought/died a hero.

What about those that fight and kill to save lives? Are they heros? Or just someone in an unfortunate situation? Do you realize that our troops that are in Iraq now put themselves in life-threating situations in order to spare the lives of civilians whom the enemy is hiding behind? It would be much easier for them just to send in a couple of AC-130 Gunships and mow down any area where enemy fire is originating. Instead, these troops are putting themselves in harm's way when they don't have to. I would consider that a certain brand of heroism.

On another note. Does anyone think there are realistically heroes in the world today. I think at times people do heroic things, but does that mean they are deemed a hero there after? "Heroes" are for the books and legends, i say.

On another note... you don't know what hero means.

what does it mean then smart guy? pointing to a definition to a dictionary means nothing. The definitions are redundant of what I've said.

 

[Wuffsunie]

I give Tillman credit for having the guts to fight in the original conflict, that in Afghanistan. That was dealing with a direct attack on his country that he wanted to respond to, that I can respect. The fact that it was part of an elite unit only increases my respect for him.

However, he's no more a hero than any other grunt over there. He did not die in some heroic manner as heroes of the wars of old did (first half of the century), he was simply killed in combat. (Correct me if I'm wrong here.) Thus he did nothing to earn the level of glory, praise, admiration, and worship that is being heaped upon his memory. He is a great example for the armed forces, no question there.

Rene Gonzalez is a complete twat, of course. Has Puerto Rico even been involved in a conflict above gang warfare? Idiot.

 

[Robor]

I think what a lot of people are losing sight of is Pat Tillman didn't consider himself a hero. That's why he didn't want any special treatment from the military and didn't grant any interviews to the media. I listen to a lot of sport talk radio and they had a guy on who knew Tillman well. They asked him what Tillman would think about all the attention he's getting today and he said something to the effect of "Pat would ask what all the talk is about?". In other words he would not consider his own death any more important than those who've fallen before/after him.

Rene is still a moron by the way...

 

[Jumpem]

Originally posted by: yllus
Rene Gonzalez is an asshole.

 

[Konigin]

What a dumbass.