Pat Tillman's Brother Kevin

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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Oh time for the left to parade their untouchables again, it is afterall election time.

I think that twit Coultier wrote something about this that sent the left into a tirade. I think she may have a point here.

Keven Tillman is a former Army Ranger who served in Iraq and Afghanistan with his older brother, Pat. Unless you've done the same, he's put more on the line than you have in your wildest neocon fantasies, and it's your credibility that's highly questionable

Perfect example of this.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Right, GenX, because if the democrats were the ones with so few vets, and the Republifascists were the ones filled with vets, you would say the same thing, right?

For what it matters - I happen to think that the dems should not overly rely on the 'vet' status to claim credibility.

But I also see your view for what it is: your cult membership making you discredit anyone on the otherside for purely partisan reasons.

The same people who put their little borg membership card "support our troops" magnets on wear bandages to mock the Shrapnel not wounding Kerry more seriously.

Maybe if it'd cost him a few limbs they'd show better taste. No, wait, Max Cleland lost three limbs in an accident and had his photo shown close to Osama bin Laden's to smear.
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
Getting shot or blown up takes no talent whatsoever. It means something either went wrong, or you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Some on this forum could give a Rats ass if you are wounded in combat or not. The true test of a soldier is doing your job with knowledge that it may be your last, and doing it with honor and integrity. This means NOT lying about your record, not lying about failures of your own, or someone elses.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Pabster
Kerry lied, and that is a fact. His Cambodia claim was beaten down rather quick. And his fear-mongering that GWB had some 'secret plan' to reinstate the draft circa January 2005 never materialized. What a shock!
Kerry shed real blood in military service, and he did it more than once. He came from a privileged background, and he could have easily stepped aside and let others go.

What have you done for your country, other than repeat the lies of your inept, lying TRAITOR of a President and his inept, lying, traitous administration?
And all you libs who continue to demonize and attack those who don't wear the uniform ought to check your mirrors real closely. There's only a handful here on this forum who HAVE and most of them don't engage in the BS you guys do.
I did wear the uniform. It was just the reserves, but the nation wasn't in combat, and unlike one of our sitting chicken hawk Presidents, I put in my full six years.
Oh boy another Harvey post I can shred

1. "He came from a privileged background, and he could have easily stepped aside and let others go."
Check this out Link
in 1970. In the course of a lengthy article, "John Kerry: A Navy Dove Runs for Congress", published on February 18, the paper reported: "When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy."
This was AFTER he finished his college studies at Yale. Looks like he tried to step aside and was refused... oops.

2. "Kerry shed real blood in military service, and he did it more than once."
From a Boston Globe kiss up piece link
"I didn't really want to get involved in the war," Kerry said in a little-noticed contribution to a book of Vietnam reminiscences published in 1986. "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing."
So much for images of Kerry wanting to charge off into battle huh?

and on his three purple hearts
Purple heart one
"He had a little scratch on his forearm, and he was holding a piece of shrapnel," recalled Kerry's commanding officer, Lieutenant Commander Grant Hibbard. "People in the office were saying, `I don't think we got any fire,' and there is a guy holding a little piece of shrapnel in his palm." Hibbard said he couldn't be certain whether Kerry actually came under fire on Dec. 2, 1968, the date in question and that is why he said he asked Kerry questions about the matter.
and got to love this quote
"I've had thorns from a rose that were worse,"
Interestingly enough Kerry has never claimed that they came under fire, just that he doesn't know where the shrapnel came from.
On Feb. 20, 1969, Kerry earned his second Purple Heart after sustaining a shrapnel wound in his left thigh
a legit war wound, but he did not lose any time from duty.
A couple of weeks later, on March 13, 1969, a mine detonated near Kerry's boat, wounding Kerry in the right arm, according to the citation written by Zumwalt...

So we have three purple hearts, none of them questionable under rules in place at that time, but none of them severe.
As Kerry said himself
Asked about the severity of the wounds, Kerry said that one of them cost him about two days of service, and that the other two did not interrupt his duty. "Walking wounded," as Kerry put it. A shrapnel wound in his left arm gave Kerry pain for years. Kerry declined a request from the Globe to sign a waiver authorizing the release of military documents that are covered under the Privacy Act and that might shed more light on the extent of the treatment Kerry needed as a result of the wounds.
Why doesn't he want us to see the medical records if they will only show the intensity of his wounds? What is he trying to hide?

Now having three purple hearts Kerry looks for a way out of Nam
So Kerry went to talk to Commodore Charles F. Horne, an administrative official and commander of the coastal squadron in which Kerry served. Horne filled out a document on March 17, 1969, that said Kerry "has been thrice wounded in action while on duty incountry Vietnam. Reassignment is requested ... as a personal aide in Boston, New York, or Wash., D.C. area."
and
The instruction, titled 1300.39, says that a Naval officer who requires hospitalization on two separate occasions, or who receives three wounds "regardless of the nature of the wounds," can ask a superior officer to request a reassignment. The instruction makes clear the reassignment is not automatic. It says that the reassignment "will be determined after consideration of his physical classification for duty and on an individual basis." Because Kerry's wounds were not considered serious, his reassignment appears to have been made on an individual basis.

Moreover, the instruction makes clear that Kerry could have asked that any reassignment be waived.

The bottom line is that Kerry could have remained but he chose to seek an early transfer

In summary:
Many people want us to think that Kerry is some brave man who rushed off to war to serve his country.
However, he actually tried to avoid going to the war by asking for a deferment to study in France, even though he had finished his degree.
He then joined he navy hoping to avoid being involved in any fighting. Joining the swift boats because he thought they "had little to do with the war"
When that changed he managed to rack up three purple hearts for minor wounds (and I don't question him being wounded or deserving the medals) and following that he went to his commander and asked for reassignment out of the war zone.

So instead of having a brave warrior who rushed off to fight for his country. We have a man who tried to avoid service, and when that didn't work out then tried to avoid combat. When forced into combat he did distinguish himself as a brave and capable commander. However, once he was able to rack up three purple hearts, including one for a scratch, he got the hell out of Nam as fast as he could.

So please spare us the hero worship routine when it comes to Kerry. He in no way shape or form deserves it. On top of all that John Kerry went out of his way to remind everyone of his service in Vietnam. :thumbsdown::|:thumbsdown:
Compare that to John McCain who spent 5 1/2 years in a prison camp and after being shot down "was then tortured by Vietnamese soldiers who bayonetted him in his left foot and groin. His shoulder was crushed by another soldier's rifle butt. He was then transported to the Hoa Lo Prison, also known as Hanoi Hilton.
Once McCain arrived at the Hanoi Hilton, he was placed in a cell and interrogated daily. When McCain refused to provide any information to his captors, he was beaten until he lost consciousness"

BTW: read this Boston Globe piece link for one of the most biased and hero worshiping piece you'll ever see in a mainstream newspaper. Especially the last line.
 

daveymark

Lifer
Sep 15, 2003
10,576
1
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: daveymark
Originally posted by: Pabster
"Kevin wrote on Truthdig.com, which purchased his work."

Truthdig is a well known left extremist site.

Form your own opinions on his writings, just know the credibility (or, in this case, lack of) of the source.

well said. Say what you will about Tillman's opinion, but the fact that he was paid to have his views slathered on a left wing extremist site makes one think about the site's own motives.

If truthdig is such a reputable upstanding, unbiased site, why do they need to pay army rangers to express their opinions? should they change their name to dollardig? It's not hard to dig for the "truth" when you have a fistful of cash in your hand.
Are you suggesting that the Tillman's really don't believe what they wrote?

Are you suggesting truthdig is unbiased?

 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
30
86
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Pabster
Kerry lied, and that is a fact. His Cambodia claim was beaten down rather quick. And his fear-mongering that GWB had some 'secret plan' to reinstate the draft circa January 2005 never materialized. What a shock!
Kerry shed real blood in military service, and he did it more than once. He came from a privileged background, and he could have easily stepped aside and let others go.

What have you done for your country, other than repeat the lies of your inept, lying TRAITOR of a President and his inept, lying, traitous administration?
And all you libs who continue to demonize and attack those who don't wear the uniform ought to check your mirrors real closely. There's only a handful here on this forum who HAVE and most of them don't engage in the BS you guys do.
I did wear the uniform. It was just the reserves, but the nation wasn't in combat, and unlike one of our sitting chicken hawk Presidents, I put in my full six years.
Oh boy another Harvey post I can shred
Oh boy. A lying Bushwhacko sycophant acknowledges my post. (like I care.)

Oh boy. I usually strip out nested quotes, but since it's mine, and you've given me the opportunity to repost it, I will, just to rub your well browned nose in it. :laugh:

Tell us, little boy, did you ever enter any branch of the American military? If so, it gives you at least miniscule standing to talk about anyone else's service. If not, you're still what I think you are -- A know nothing loudmouth with nothing to say and far too many words to say it.
The bottom line is that Kerry could have remained but he chose to seek an early transfer
Don't you love a fire breathing coward? You are the epitome of a chicken hawk. Show us Your Purple Hearts and Bronze and Silver Stars, or STFU. :thumbsdown: :| :thumbsdown:
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
I have as many purple hearts and silver stars as you and dare I say just about everyone else on this board.

I was actually going to be an air rescue swimmer in the Navy, but could not enlist due to curvature of the spin.

And what I said about Kerry stands. He did his duty, but he also did everything he could to stay out of the war and then stay out of combat, and once in combat he went out of his way to get three purple hearts and get his ass home.

If Kerry hadn't made such a big deal of his Vietnam experience we probably would have never heard of "Swift Boat Vets for Truth.? It is kind of ironic that his attempts to portray himself as a hero and the backlash against such a portrayal may have cost him the Presidency.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Anyone remember this story?
In Leesburg Florida, a woman was trying to decide on whether to join the Army or the Navy. The Army recruiter she was talking to told her that the Navy couldn't guarantee the training she wanted.

The Navy recruiter next door spoke up, saying that they could. An hour later, in response to this, three Army sergeants tried to smash the Navy office. Two Marines rushed in to help the Navy.

Army 'won' because one of the trio had a crowbar and actually hit a Marine over the head with it. The woman, suitably 'impressed' with the Army, signed up with the Navy.
My brother was the Navy recruiter, was the same time I tried to enlist.
BTW: the crow bar over the head is false.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
How many purple hearts did bush get while snorting cocaine?
As many as Clinton did smoking pot.

At least Bush was in the military, and a pilot no less, not exactly the job of an idiot.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dahunan
How many purple hearts did bush get while snorting cocaine?
As many as Clinton did smoking pot.

At least Bush was in the military, and a pilot no less, not exactly the job of an idiot.


So, now there are no difference between cocaine users and marijuana smokers?

a pilot? what was he waiting to do.. learn to fly into colombia and buy his own drugs?
 

BlancoNino

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 2005
5,695
0
0
I clicked on this thread and read the original post.

I fast-forwarded to the last page only to see bickering about Bush, cocaine, Clinton, purple hearts, etc...

Now I remember why I don't frequent P&N much anymore.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
66
91
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dahunan
How many purple hearts did bush get while snorting cocaine?
As many as Clinton did smoking pot.

At least Bush was in the military, and a pilot no less, not exactly the job of an idiot.

You obviously don't know many pilots!

I can actually respect a straight-forward draft dodger who opposed the war more than a man who ostensibly supports the war, but can't be bothered to serve in it. He also couldn't be bothered to show up for his minimal Guard drill requirements. It's always entertaining, though, to see how much chickenhawks love their own kind.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Don, there is evidence that Bush met his duties while in Alabama. Medical and pay records from the time his was there back this up. The medical records are from the base right in Montgomery.

I would post links, but I did a huge post on this within the past week or so and don't feel like going through it again.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
66
91
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Don, there is evidence that Bush met his duties while in Alabama. Medical and pay records from the time his was there back this up. The medical records are from the base right in Montgomery.

I would post links, but I did a huge post on this within the past week or so and don't feel like going through it again.

Then why does his 1972-73 OPR say "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of the report"?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
What John fails to mention is that there is evidence Bush did not show up as he was supposed to for several months, that he ignored an order to report specifically in early October, that there is no satisfactory explanation for his failing to take a physical as ordered, the first year the physicals began random drug testing, grounding him as a pilot, which is a very serious offense with a mandatory investigation which there is no evidence was done - in other words, there is plenty of evidence that Bush got all kinds of preferential treatment as the son of a powerful politician.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
What John fails to mention is that there is evidence Bush did not show up as he was supposed to for several months, that he ignored an order to report specifically in early October, that there is no satisfactory explanation for his failing to take a physical as ordered, the first year the physicals began random drug testing, grounding him as a pilot, which is a very serious offense with a mandatory investigation which there is no evidence was done - in other words, there is plenty of evidence that Bush got all kinds of preferential treatment as the son of a powerful politician.


Starting with getting a pilots spot over many other much better quailified individuals and culminating in his negligence to take the physical/possible random drug test. SOme commited pilot he turned out to be. He should have to pay the govement back the $1 million it took to train him.

His "fellow pilots" in Montgomery were eager to meet him, but never saw him. According to the records, he did show up for a free dentist visit so apprently he must have been there.

 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
11,843
8,432
136
Obviously, Dental records >>>>>>> Purple Hearts and other battle commendations.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
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Craig, we just went over all this last week.
Let's not do it again.

You have your view, I have mine.
Both of our views have some holes in them.

Don, I am not sure about this OPR you speak of, not sure I read it, or I may have read it an not know it was called an OPR.

What I have read is lots of evidence that shows that most, if not all, of the claims made about Bush are very shaky.
Here are the links from factcheck.org a non-partisan "consumer advocate"
Bush A Military "Deserter?"
New Evidence Supports Bush Military Service (Mostly)
Democratic Group's Ad Revives "AWOL" Allegation Against Bush

Interestingly enough this group also looking into the Swift Vet attacks and pointed out a lot of details that were not good for the Swift Boaters, such as none of them actually served with Kerry etc.
So I would see this site as very unbiased.

Read those three links about Bush with an open mind and see if it doesn't change your opinion on some of the charges.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
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I forgot to ad that Kerry often points to the official Navy records as evidence that he deserved his medals and did everything that was expected of him.

Bush also points to the official records, which also back up his story that he did everything that was required of him.

Would it not be a little hypocritical to believe one set of records and not the others?
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
I don't have time to look it up right now but wasn't bush in business with a some saudi before he was ever discharged form Daddys babysitting NG service?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
John, there are no 'holes' in what I said if holes means things which are incorrect. You posted a completely one-sided subset of the history - you don't then get to say 'let's not repeat this' and say my side has holes it doesn't have.

Bush did wrong - he just didn't do everything wrong that's been suggested, and you have defended him from some of the charges, and not others. The net is he still did wrong.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I forgot to ad that Kerry often points to the official Navy records as evidence that he deserved his medals and did everything that was expected of him.

Bush also points to the official records, which also back up his story that he did everything that was required of him.

Would it not be a little hypocritical to believe one set of records and not the others?

Why can't they find one person who will step up and say he remebers Bush and worked with him at Montgomery ANG?

 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
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Craig, read the links.
The ONLY thing you have that everyone seems to agree with is that Bush missed the flight physical. But there is no clam by anyone that I know of that he skipped it due to drug use, unless I missed that story. There is a Salon story about the drug test policy, but there is no factual connection made.

Same with you ez.

Let's see.... he was in Bama in 1972 and they start asking people 28 years later if they remember meeting him when he was there for all of 10 days I think?

And remember this is the National Guard, people came and went on different days. This is not the same people being there every day.

The "New Evidence" link explains everything you are complaining about.
There are pay records and first hand witness accounts by people who say he was there. There are no people who were in the Guard that remember him though, but how many people did you meet for 10 days would you remember 28 years later? And at that time his dad was not that important or well known.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig, read the links.
The ONLY thing you have that everyone seems to agree with is that Bush missed the flight physical. But there is no clam by anyone that I know of that he skipped it due to drug use, unless I missed that story. There is a Salon story about the drug test policy, but there is no factual connection made.

Same with you ez.

Let's see.... he was in Bama in 1972 and they start asking people 28 years later if they remember meeting him when he was there for all of 10 days I think?

And remember this is the National Guard, people came and went on different days. This is not the same people being there every day.

The "New Evidence" link explains everything you are complaining about.
There are pay records and first hand witness accounts by people who say he was there. There are no people who were in the Guard that remember him though, but how many people did you meet for 10 days would you remember 28 years later?
As I recall, the commanding officer that Bush was supposed to report to at Montgomery says he never showed up. It's just got to be more then coincidence that he can't come up with a person he knew there that would remember him.
And at that time his dad was not that important or well known.

LOL, Nixon appointed his Dad Ambassador to China in 1974, so tell me another one.
 
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