Patent office cancels Redskins trademark

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schmuckley

Platinum Member
Aug 18, 2011
2,335
1
0
I'm glad to see the law standing for what it should - no surprise it's one from decades ago rather than the modern obstructionist period - and to see it enforced.

I may not have the correct understanding of this, but if I do, this is going to be dominated by money, because this might allow third parties to sell competing merchandise. I'm not sure what the owners' legal rights are against such competitors when they lose the trademark on appeal. And that would make them want a replacement.

And with that, all the statements by the owner about how the name will 'NEVER' change saying you can put that in caps are likely to be completely reversed.

Our nation has a nasty history of discrimination, and it's good to correct what we can.

What's getting "corrected"?
The idea that Native American people are strong and proud?

or people's way of thinking to be politically correct?

Personally I think it's the latter,and it's been happening for a generation with the education system.See George Orwell's "Newspeak"

They got ya.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
I'm not sure what the owners' legal rights are against such competitors when they lose the trademark on appeal.

As explained earlier in the thread, the owners' legal rights against infringing use will be almost exactly what they currently are even if they lose the appeal and registration is canceled.

ZV
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
I'm not sure what the owners' legal rights are against such competitors when they lose the trademark on appeal.

If the team loses the appeal they lose the registrations, not the trademarks. The Lanham Act is actually a double-edged sword. But then the protection would fall under common law. While they could still go after trademark infringers, it would be extremely difficult (currently very easy under USPTO trademark protection) to collect any monetary damages and virtually null to enforce any trademark piracy overseas.

Worst case scenario (however improbable, but crazier things happen in 2014) is a judge restricts common law rights and finds the trademark unenforceable. This would indeed allow anyone to use the beloved patriot name however they wished. Any lawyer who says otherwise, seek new legal council.
 
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Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
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While they could still go after trademark infringers, it would be extremely difficult (currently very easy under USPTO trademark protection) to collect any monetary damages

This is flat wrong. It's the same process either way. You get a judgment and apply a judicial lien. It's no more or less difficult to collect a federal judgment than it is to collect a state judgment.

Now, the team would have to prove damages instead of being able to rely on automatic statutory damages, but that has to do with getting the damages awarded in the first place, not collecting them. Also, if the infringing party has profits, that's pretty much going to be assumed to be the damages, so establishing damages isn't really a meaningful hurdle. Besides that, damages are generally of secondary importance at best as it's an injunction against further infringement that's really what's sought.

and virtually null to enforce any trademark piracy overseas.

Because the overseas market for Washington Redskins merchandise is so large that it will naturally attract huge numbers of pirates.

Worst case scenario (however improbable, but crazier things happen in 2014) is a judge restricts common law rights and finds the trademark unenforceable. This would indeed allow anyone to use the beloved patriot name however they wished. Any lawyer who says otherwise, seek new legal council.

Absent Constitutional or direct legislative conflicts, federal judges have no power to rescind state common law. It is literally impossible (again, absent Constitutional or direct legislative conflicts) for a federal judge to restrict or eliminate the common law protections afforded by the states; he or she simply would not have the jurisdictional authority to do so. There are no Constitutional or direct legislative conflicts here; the Lanham act explicitly allows the continuation of state common law protections.

ZV
 
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bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
The last place you want advice is from someone who stands to profit from it. Just like our resident ATOT patent attorney who can't see anything wrong with our current patent system. Of course, it's irrelevant how the client or system is irreparably harmed, as long as we get paid.

Took me just a few minutes to find support for this legal opinion, from a sports lawyer, just one of many. Obviously the freely available Internet cuts into many business profits for those who sell information at a premium.

While an appeal by the Redskins would stay any legal impact for some time, cancellation of registration means the Redskins name is no longer protected by the federal government as an exclusive trademark. A trademark is a mark, often a word or symbol, that distinguishes a source of goods from others. If it is registered with the USPTO, a trademark can be deemed exclusive to the registering businesses. Registration carries a number of advantages, including a legal presumption of ownership and the exclusive right to use the mark in connection with specific goods and services. Under the federal Lanham Act, a trademark may be cancelled if it brings a distinct category of people into disrepute.

.....As a result of the cancellation, the Redskins have far more limited federal trademark protection to stop counterfeits and other businesses from commercially exploiting their name in selling merchandise and apparel. In theory, the Redskins and their owner, Daniel Snyder, could lose millions of dollars as a result of the cancellation. Revenue sharing by NFL teams on licensing contracts means the 31 other franchises could stand to lose millions as well.

What today's cancellation does not mean
Most importantly, cancellation of registration does not force the Redskins to change their name. Cancellation is only about legal protection for the exclusive use of the name under federal trademark law. The law cannot compel the Redskins to change the name. Instead, critics of the name can attempt to make it more difficult for the Redskins to profit off the name, and thus give the team financial incentives to voluntarily change it. Political pressure can also be applied on the Redskins.


Cancellation of the registration of the Redskins mark also does not end the team's exclusive use of the Redskins logo and other distinctive art owned by the team. Also, cancellation doesn't nullify existing licensing contracts between the Redskins and businesses to produce memorabilia and other items using the word "Redskins." Royalties still must be paid on those licensing contracts. Significant adverse economic impact on the Redskins does not occur immediately.

Cancellation also does not preclude the Redskins from seeking other forms of legal protection for their name. First, the Redskins can still attempt to enforce exclusivity under federal law -- specifically Section 43(a) of the Lanham Act -- even with the cancellation.

However, cancellation makes it more difficult to enforce exclusivity under federal law since the Redskins lose legal presumptions, customs and counterfeiting remedies.

Second, while federal trademark registration is a powerful form of trademark protection, it is not the only method of protecting a brand name. The Redskins are headquartered in Ashburn, Va., and may enjoy legal protection under Virginia law and the laws of other states in which they do business. There are also court decisions in those states -- better known as "common law" -- that may be favorable to the Redskins for exclusive use of the team name. Indeed, the Redskins likely enjoy some protection under common law so long as the mark -- the Redskins -- is used in commerce. In other words, even if the USPTO ruling prevails over a Redskins appeal, the Redskins may continue to enjoy legal protection through other sources of law. Expect future litigation to determine the exact legal rights of the Redskins to enjoy exclusive commercial use of the team name.


Appeal
.....The legal battle over the Redskins has spanned two decades, but it may take several more decades before there is any final resolution.

Cha-ching, cha-ching (added by me)

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nf...kins-trademark-cancelled-uspto/#ixzz35FnXRREU
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
The last place you want advice is from someone who stands to profit from it. Just like our resident ATOT patent attorney who can't see anything wrong with our current patent system. Of course, it's irrelevant how the client or system is irreparably harmed, as long as we get paid.

Took me just a few minutes to find support for this legal opinion, from a sports lawyer, just one of many. Obviously the freely available Internet cuts into many business profits for those who sell information at a premium.

Cha-ching, cha-ching (added by me)

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nf...kins-trademark-cancelled-uspto/#ixzz35FnXRREU

Because when I want legal analysis, I always turn to Sports Illustrated. It's a little-known fact that the Swimsuit Edition is routinely at the top of the list for publications most frequently cited in court decisions.

And yes, I'm all about the profits. That's why I'm sharing the information for free on an internet forum.

If I were in this for money, I'd let you all spout uncorrected bullshit and then laugh all the way to the bank as I collected massive fees for fixing all the legal mistakes that laypeople make. Anyway.

Taking the bits one by one:

Registration carries a number of advantages, including a legal presumption of ownership and the exclusive right to use the mark in connection with specific goods and services.

This does not mean what you think it means. Registration creates the presumption of ownership and the presumption of the exclusive right. It does not create the exclusive right. Given the history of the team, the value of these presumptions is virtually nil since the organization is of sufficiently high profile to establish both of these without the presumption.

As a result of the cancellation, the Redskins have far more limited federal trademark protection to stop counterfeits and other businesses from commercially exploiting their name in selling merchandise and apparel. In theory, the Redskins and their owner, Daniel Snyder, could lose millions of dollars as a result of the cancellation. Revenue sharing by NFL teams on licensing contracts means the 31 other franchises could stand to lose millions as well.

Notice how he explicitly says that the federal protection is more limited. Conspicuously absent is the fact that state protection (which is every bit as powerful as federal protection) remains unchanged.

As for the rest, well, in theory, if my aunt had nuts she'd be my uncle. People are quick to hype unlikely worst-case scenarios because they make good headlines and they grab readers. The reality is that while, in theory, the team "could" lose millions, such an outcome is about as probable as Scalia suddenly saying that his devotion to plain meaning was all a joke and that from now on all his decisions will be based on legislative intent. (For those who aren't in the legal profession, that means it's rather unlikely.)

The law cannot compel the Redskins to change the name. Instead, critics of the name can attempt to make it more difficult for the Redskins to profit off the name, and thus give the team financial incentives to voluntarily change it.

This doesn't say that the cancellation of the registration would make it more difficult for the team to profit, only that attempts to make profits more difficult are one avenue that critics can take.

However, cancellation makes it more difficult to enforce exclusivity under federal law since the Redskins lose legal presumptions, customs and counterfeiting remedies.

Again, note the conspicuous absence of mention of the fact that state law provides robust protections that are unaffected by the cancellation of federal registration. Mentioning such things runs against the narrative of the cancellation being a major step forward so such things are not mentioned.

There are also court decisions in those states -- better known as "common law" -- that may be favorable to the Redskins for exclusive use of the team name. Indeed, the Redskins likely enjoy some protection under common law so long as the mark -- the Redskins -- is used in commerce. In other words, even if the USPTO ruling prevails over a Redskins appeal, the Redskins may continue to enjoy legal protection through other sources of law.

And here we go. He's now agreeing with me. However, he's buried this information at the end of the article because it doesn't fit with what people want to hear. And, further, he has misleadingly used the phrase "may continue" when the truth is that it is much more correct to say that the protections "will continue."

Expect future litigation to determine the exact legal rights of the Redskins to enjoy exclusive commercial use of the team name.

And we're finishing with pablum that has no real meaning but makes the reader feel good by implying that somehow the state laws might be circumvented through further legal action. They won't be.

In the grand scheme of things, the cancellation of federal registration for the trademarks would be an annoyance, but nothing more. They would continue to be able to sue for infringement. They would continue to be able to collect awards in the same manner they do now. They would face a trivial amount of increased work to show that they've been using the mark in commerce, but the fact that the team is almost universally known in the US makes such showings roughly the same level of difficulty as breathing.

Yes, they will lose some international protections. But the overall international market for merchandise of an American Football team with an offensive name simply cannot be significant. And yes, they lose some customs enforcement of counterfeit merchandise at the border, but this doesn't make it legal to sell that merchandise just because it gets through. They will continue to be able to sue people selling the counterfeit merchandise in the US just as they've always done.

The professor at a third tier toilet law school who wrote that article is embellishing and pandering to his lay readers.

I don't expect you to be convinced. After all, "the man he hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." But folks like you are great for my own job security.

ZV
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
Because when I want legal analysis, I always turn to Sports Illustrated. It's a little-known fact that the Swimsuit Edition is routinely at the top of the list for publications most frequently cited in court decisions.

And yes, I'm all about the profits. That's why I'm sharing the information for free on an internet forum.

If I were in this for money, I'd let you all spout uncorrected bullshit and then laugh all the way to the bank as I collected massive fees for fixing all the legal mistakes that laypeople make. Anyway.

The professor at a third tier toilet law school who wrote that article is embellishing and pandering to his lay readers.

I don't expect you to be convinced. After all, "the man he hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." But folks like you are great for my own job security.

ZV

The old "this doesn't mean what you think it means." Just lol at transparent you. And then the S&G quote. Seriously.

But hey, being a legal analyst and writer for SI must be a cushy job. Michael McCann also taught sports law at Yale Law School and is a graduate of Harvard Law School, UVA Law and Georgetown. I expect to see your brilliant name in lights one day soon. The higher up, the more money to be made, the less time spent on this forum.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
The old "this doesn't mean what you think it means."

It doesn't. You obviously quoted it under the assumption that it said the registration created the right to exclusive use. That is simply not true. Registration creates a rebuttable presumption that the holder of the registration has the exclusive right to use the trademark, but it does not create the right itself.

The loss of this rebuttable presumption would be a minor inconvenience for an entity like the Washington Redskins that can easily demonstrate more than half a century of continued use of the mark in commerce. The team simply doesn't need the rebuttable presumptions granted by federal registration. Such presumptions are convenient, sure. But they're about as far from necessary as you can get. It's like the difference between an automatic transmission car and a manual transmission car. The automatic transmission car is more convenient, but both are so much more convenient than no car at all that being forced to go from an automatic to a manual cannot reasonably be called a huge loss.

But that is an actual point and, thusfar, you have steadfastly refused to address the actual points I've made, choosing instead to selectively quote and to wholly ignore the times I've pointed out that the people you quote are agreeing with me.

You're misquoting experts and misreading articles designed more to attract readers than to fully educate on the law. But I'm confident that intelligent third parties can clearly see that.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled ranting about how big of a deal the cancellation of registration is along with all the rest of the legally uneducated.

ZV
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
You're so well-read you see Michael McCann as "The professor at a third tier toilet law school" who is "embellishing and pandering to his lay readers" Talk about missing the mark. To be honest, I don't care what type of law you practice or where you attended law school.

The NFL Redskins will take a significant legal and financial bottom line hit from this current USPTO decision. It affects or interferes with their right to free commerce, which has been my contention all along.... to what degree only history (and perhaps mob rule) will determine.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
You're so well-read you see Michael McCann as "The professor at a third tier toilet law school" who is "embellishing and pandering to his lay readers" Talk about missing the mark. To be honest, I don't care what type of law you practice or where you attended law school.

He is currently a professor at Mississippi College School of Law. Mississippi College School of Law is an unranked, third-tier-toilet. He's also teaching at the University of New Hampshire School of Law, a school that is not even in the top 100. Neither is exactly indicative of being a leading light in the legal field.

He's a pundit. And a successful one. But he is first and foremost a pundit. The article you linked is not wholly accurate from a strict legal perspective, nor is it wholly realistic for how things work in practice (which is often divorced from the academic world of legal theory). Even with those caveats, it still doesn't support your irrational assertion that the revocation of federal registration is some massive blow to the team.

The NFL Redskins will take a significant legal and financial bottom line hit from this current USPTO decision.

No, they will not. There will be some effect, yes, but it will not be anything close to even mildly crippling.

It affects or interferes with their right to free commerce, which has been my contention all along.... to what degree only history (and perhaps mob rule) will determine.

I'd just love to hear where this "right to free commerce" comes from.

ZV
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
Sort of how Michio Kaku (Harvard, Berkeley grad) chooses to teach physics at City College, when he could easily write his own ticket.

Dude, may want to read his biography? If it isn't impressive, then perhaps you are truly gifted beyond reproach or compare. In fact, forget about me, e-mail Michael your opinions regarding the subject and report back your direct exchanges, if he indeed gives you the time of day.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/writers/michael_mccann/archive/

> BIOGRAPHY
Michael McCann is a legal analyst and writer at Sports Illustrated and SI.com and is the founding Director of the Sports and Entertainment Law Institute (SELI) at the University of New Hampshire School of Law, where he is also a tenured Professor of Law. McCann has won the Professor the Year Award for outstanding teaching several times and authored more than 20 law review articles, including placements in the Yale Law Journal, Wisconsin Law Review and Boston College Law Review.

McCann is the author of more than 200 Sports Illustrated and SI.com articles, covering such stories as the Aaron Hernandez murder case, Boston Marathon bombings, the legality of NFL teams asking college players about their sexual orientation, steroids scandals, NBA, NFL and NHL lockouts, the Penn State scandal and O'Bannon v. NCAA. Along with co-author David Epstein, McCann broke the story on Bobby Petrino hiring his mistress over 150+ more qualified applicants for player development coordinator. He was also the first member of the media to interview Lance Armstrong after Armstrong's interview with Oprah Winfrey. McCann's exclusive interview was at Armstrong's home in Austin, TX and is detailed in "My Dance With Lance" (Sports Illustrated, March 11, 2013 issue, pages 14-15). McCann also serves as an on-air legal analyst for SI Now and NBA TV.

In 2011, the Society for Social Psychology & Personality awarded McCann the Media Prize for excellence in explaining legal topics to a general audience. In 2012, The Huffington Post ranked McCann #23 on "Top 40 Must-Follow Twitter Accounts for NBA Fanatics" & The Sporting Chart named him a "Top 50 NBA Mind".

McCann has taught sports law analytics at Yale Law School, the first course of its kind at any law school. Along with Harvard Law Professor Jon Hanson, McCann co-founded the Project on Law & Mind Sciences at Harvard Law School. McCann is also the Distinguished Visiting Hall of Fame Professor of Law at Mississippi College School of Law. He has presented at MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conferences since 2009.

In 2004, McCann served as counsel to college football star Maurice Clarett in his NFL eligibility lawsuit. Clarett v. NFL is considered one of the most important cases in sports law history. McCann, who is a member of the Massachusetts Bar, was also Legal Counsel to Congressman Marty Meehan (5th District, Massachusetts), an aide to Tom Reilly while Reilly was Attorney General of Massachusetts and Middlesex County District Attorney, and a litigator at two Boston law firms.

McCann is a graduate of Harvard Law School, the University of Virginia School of Law and Georgetown University. He resides in Massachusetts with his wife, Kara McCann, a real estate banking analyst.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
You are welcome to continue posting irrelevant twaddle if that pleases you. However, you have failed to address any of my comments regarding the actual article and instead seem intent on making this about how relatively well-known two attorneys are. Practicing attorneys don't write law review articles (they're worthless for practitioners) and they don't bother being talking heads since that cuts into the time they have to, you know, actually practice law.

I've outlined my objections to his article (which are mostly objections to his phrasing which implies the revocation is more serious than he himself admits) and shown that the substantive portion of his analysis agrees with mine (namely that state-level protections will continue). You have ignored this and instead have gone off on irrelevant tangents (much as you did with your ridiculous and inexplicable "power to coin money" bit many posts ago).

McCann is a popular professor and a talking head. That doesn't make him a leading legal theorist, nor does it make him a leading expert on trademark law.

In any case, as I've shown, his core analysis is identical to my own. He is exaggerating the overall practical effects in a way that can only be described as pandering to his reader base, but the core analysis that state protections remain even if the registration is ultimately cancelled and that those state protections will still allow the team to successfully sue and recover for infringing uses does not differ from my own.

As for you, you still have not explained:

1) Why you believe it is currently legal for anyone to make and sell unlicensed Redskins merchandise (as you claimed earlier in this thread).

2) Why the federal government's power to coin money is in any way relevant to trademark law (as you claimed it was earlier in this thread).

3) Where the "right to commerce" comes from (a right you claimed existed earlier in this thread).

I've done with you, child.

ZV
 
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edro

Lifer
Apr 5, 2002
24,326
68
91
I am now on the get rid of "Redskins" bandwagon.

I see now that referring to someone based solely on a physical characteristic can be offensive.
Chiefs, Indians, Seminoles, etc. are not derogatory. Redskins is.

Are there any other sports teams with a name based solely on a physical characteristic?
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,574
7,671
136
Oklahoma The state's name is derived from the Choctaw words okla and humma, meaning "red people"

Looks like we'll have to change the states name to.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
I am now on the get rid of "Redskins" bandwagon.

I see now that referring to someone based solely on a physical characteristic can be offensive.
Chiefs, Indians, Seminoles, etc. are not derogatory. Redskins is.

Are there any other sports teams with a name based solely on a physical characteristic?

Giants -- that has to be offensive to tall people.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
I am now on the get rid of "Redskins" bandwagon.

I see now that referring to someone based solely on a physical characteristic can be offensive.
Chiefs, Indians, Seminoles, etc. are not derogatory. Redskins is.

Are there any other sports teams with a name based solely on a physical characteristic?

yeah the White sox. it implies only white men are good enough to wear sox. I think they should be disbanded.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
yeah the White sox. it implies only white men are good enough to wear sox. I think they should be disbanded.

Also New York Yankees

The informal British English "Yank" is especially popular among Britons and Australians and sometimes carries pejorative overtones.[4] The Southern American English "Yankee" is typically uncontracted and at least mildly pejorative, although less vehemently so as time passes from the American Civil War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yankee
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
There have to be plenty of people who hate the NY Yankees who also feel that being called a yankee, yank, or damned yank, is derogatory. They should start a petition to have the Yankee's trademarks.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
i think it is a good thing that the trademark was revoked because now there is one less trademark while the redskins still arent prohibited by the State from calling themselves the redskins. and another plus is the fact that other entities may now call themselves "redskins" i hope the u.s. ip office finds more trademarks offensive and refuses to recognize them
 
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nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
There have to be plenty of people who hate the NY Yankees who also feel that being called a yankee, yank, or damned yank, is derogatory. They should start a petition to have the Yankee's trademarks.

Unfortunately unlike Native Americans white people's lives are not so perfect that we have time to worry about the silly names of sports teams potentially being derogatory towards us
 
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