Patent office cancels Redskins trademark

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bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
I think what some of us are trying to say, or at least me, for the little gained by forcing a name change so much more will be lost. It's a way net negative and distraction.

A centered mind knows to pick and choose his/her battles wisely.

Pretty sure there's a long list of tribes that officially filed complaints about that...

Except pretty sure is not even good enough to win at a game of checkers or chess. Either you know something, about the origins of the word and the actual offense, or you do not.
 
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Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
If it were any other racial slur, I can't imagine people rushing to defend it. "God dammit, we're not calling our team the Kikes; they're the JIGGABOOS." We wouldn't even be having a debate if someone was trying to name a team the "Ni**ers;" we'd all agree "that's fucking ridiculous" and move on. But Redskins? "Ah, it's not so bad. There aren't enough of them to complain anyway." The rationale needed to make the leap that it's perfectly reasonable to keep a team name that a significant number of people find offensive is mind-boggling. Isn't the whole point of society to try to get along with one another? Would it really be so bad to change to a name that didn't offend a significant portion of the population? What nobility is there in defending an owner who only insists on keeping an offensive name out of sheer spite and hubris? Nothing about this makes any sense to me.

Snyder is not the only owner to defend the Redskins name.

But since we are on the topic of changing team names, why are the following names ok, but not the Redskins?

1) The Cleveland Indians (coupled with a caricature of a native american)

2) The Cleveland Browns

3) Chacago Blackhawks (particularly when you compare the Hawks logo to the Skins logo)

4) Atlanta Braves

5) Notre Dame Fighting Irish

6) Kansas City Chiefs

I'll tell you why - people have the sense nowadays to realize how those terms are being used. I would be inordinately surprised if the majority of people who are "offended" are not in fact a member of the allegedly offended race, but rather a bunch of nincompoops who are convinced that because a term might have an offensive meaning in one context, its use in all contexts must be banned. That position is silly and an affront to the intelligence of the American people in general and American Indians in particular.

I raised a counter to your particular argument in another thread on this topic. The gist of that counter was that all of the other terms you mentioned (n'er, beloved patriot, etc.) have a single overwhelmingly racist meaning. There is no other meaning for those terms . . . at least not to the general public. In contrast the term beloved patriot has been used in connection with the football team for so long that it has become defined more by the team than by its racial use some ~100 years ago. Ask anyone under the age of 20 what a beloved patriot is and I would be shocked if most did not answer that the term referred to "a football player."
 
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BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
126
Democrats, evidently.

No dipshit, various groups representing native Americans have been hammering away and protesting the usage of any Indian symbolism for the last 10-15 years, go to P+N and take your trash out on the way.
 

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
126


I will now go make racist indian gear at MyLocker.com and wear it around any damn time I feel like it.

Dipshit #2, this is NOT a debate involving Democrats/GOP, these people planned to file lawsuits long ago regardless of who was in the White house or who had the majority in the house/senate. FWIW IMO it's confusing that native groups find naming a team "Redskins" or Indians" insulting, it's not, the simple fact is the the Cleveland "Jews" doesn't have much of a ring to it..
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
:thumbsup: I can live with that.

By the way, it's not PC "liberals" who are pushing for this change. It is Native Americans. I just happen to support their right to be offended and demand change.

To quote an earlier link Atomic Playboy posted:

As could I, I just see a good deal of long-term issues with indulging every single little group that's offended by a word when no real harm is being done or has recently been done in association with said word.

"beloved patriot" is no longer used in a derogatory fashion. To be offended by someone who does not mean to offend you, while being aware that they did not mean to offend you, is childish.

Also, as per the Redskins' response, courts have previously upheld that there is no evidence that the trademark is "disparaging" anyone. It will be interesting to see their interpretation of the study.

And at the end of the day I don't think people have a right to freedom from offense. You can be as offended as you like by anything you like, but you cannot (or at least, should not be able to) legally force people to stop offending you barring direct harassment.

Now I'm probably going to get a lot of flack for this next paragraph, but frankly I find nothing sympathetic about holding a grudge for generations. I'm aware of the atrocities the American Government committed against Native Americans, I'm aware that in many cases they were tantamount to genocide. I'm also aware that all of it happened in the distant past, nearly a century before a lot of people in that poll were born. No one living committed these offenses, and no one living was alive to be offended by them. I don't have sympathy for people who demand modern action because they got pissed over something they read in a history book, and I fail to see why this apparently constitutes a goddamn legal basis. Correction, I have sympathy that they're so trapped in their own past they can't put more their energy into more productive action in the present. From what I know of modern Native American problems they'd be much better off putting this time, money and energy into the issue of alcoholism, among other things.
 
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bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
I know a few Native Americans who are actually fans of Indian based teams, including: Chicago Blackhawks, Atlanta Braves, Washington Redskins etc. merely based on their logos and names. lol? None of them have ever mentioned being offended, not once.

Also, perhaps the social engineers and community activists haven't informed the masses yet, but Oklahoma is also offensive by the same standards. It's derived from the Choctaw words okla and humma, which means 'red people.'

Red mother fucking people. So forget about teams, that's an entire fucking state. That's so God-damned offensive to my poor sensibilities. We need to force Oklahoma to either disband or enter into secession from the US. In the meantime, let that bubble start growing, daddy needs a new Porsche.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
Snyder is not the only owner to defend the Redskins name.

But since we are on the topic of changing team names, why are the following names ok, but not the Redskins?

1) The Cleveland Indians (coupled with a caricature of a native american)

2) The Cleveland Browns

3) Chacago Blackhawks (particularly when you compare the Hawks logo to the Skins logo)

4) Atlanta Braves

5) Notre Dame Fighting Irish

6) Kansas City Chiefs

I'll tell you why - people have the sense nowadays to realize how those terms are being used. I would be inordinately surprised if the majority of people who are "offended" are not in fact a member of the allegedly offended race, but rather a bunch of nincompoops who are convinced that because a term might have an offensive meaning in one context, its use in all contexts must be banned. That position is silly and an affront to the intelligence of the American people in general and American Indians in particular.

I raised a counter to your particular argument in another thread on this topic. The gist of that counter was that all of the other terms you mentioned (n'er, beloved patriot, etc.) have a single overwhelmingly racist meaning. There is no other meaning for those terms . . . at least not to the general public. In contrast the term beloved patriot has been used in connection with the football team for so long that it has become defined more by the team than by its racial use some ~100 years ago. Ask anyone under the age of 20 what a beloved patriot is and I would be shocked if most did not answer that the term referred to "a football player."

But you see, to those demanding the name be change it doesn't matter if offense is intended, only if offense is taken. Whether offense should be taken or not is something they don't deem themselves worthy to judge. I'm glad our judicial system doesn't use their logic ("only the victim can truly understand the offense and therefore render a proper judgement").
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
I know a few Native Americans who are actually fans of Indian based teams, including: Chicago Blackhawks, Atlanta Braves, Washington Redskins etc. merely based on their logos and names. lol? None of them have ever mentioned being offended, not once.

Also, perhaps the social engineers and community activists haven't informed the masses yet, but Oklahoma is also offensive by the same standards. It's derived from the Choctaw words okla and humma, which means 'red people.'

Red mother fucking people. So forget about teams, that's an entire fucking state. That's so God-damned offensive to my poor sensibilities. We need to force Oklahoma to either disband or enter into secession from the US. In the meantime, let that bubble start growing, daddy needs a new Porsche.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsjV1OXQIAc

God, it's like the next "Birth of a Nation" now that I know that.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
I raised a counter to your particular argument in another thread on this topic. The gist of that counter was that all of the other terms you mentioned (n'er, beloved patriot, etc.) have a single overwhelmingly racist meaning. There is no other meaning for those terms . . . at least not to the general public. In contrast the term beloved patriot has been used in connection with the football team for so long that it has become defined more by the team than by its racial use some ~100 years ago. Ask anyone under the age of 20 what a beloved patriot is and I would be shocked if most did not answer that the term referred to "a football player."

So as long as we're using an appropriately archaic slur it's OK? Has "spearchucker" fallen far enough out of favor that I could name a team that? How about "zipperhead" or "wop" or "slope" or "sambo?" That seems like a preposterous justification for keeping an offensive name.

But really, my problem with it isn't about the speech or using offensive terminology or what have you. It's the fact that a bunch of people have come together many times over the past decade to ask the team to change the name because it's offensive, and the team has always adopted this attitude of "if you don't like it, fuck you." That's unconscionable to me personally. If I owned a team and I named it the "Wogs" cause I thought it was a funny word and a group of people came to me and said, "Actually, that's a very offensive term," I'd change it. I don't understand the argument that "yeah, I may be offending you, but I don't care," when there are plenty of names to use that would not offend people. That's just being a straight-up asshole for no reason. What possible justification is there for keeping the team name outside of an appeal to tradition?

An article I was reading earlier on the subject raised a good point. Basically, it asked if the journalists and talking heads defending the name would feel comfortable going up to a family of American Indians and addressing them as "redskins." If you aren't willing to say it to an American Indian's face, then you acknowledge that it's a slur, and I would guess that most people would agree that we probably shouldn't be using slurs as team names. To which end, I would be fine with every one of those teams you mentioned changing their names/mascots if they are legitimately offending people. It's time to move beyond this absurdity.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
So as long as we're using an appropriately archaic slur it's OK? Has "spearchucker" fallen far enough out of favor that I could name a team that? How about "zipperhead" or "wop" or "slope" or "sambo?" That seems like a preposterous justification for keeping an offensive name.

But really, my problem with it isn't about the speech or using offensive terminology or what have you. It's the fact that a bunch of people have come together many times over the past decade to ask the team to change the name because it's offensive, and the team has always adopted this attitude of "if you don't like it, fuck you." That's unconscionable to me personally. If I owned a team and I named it the "Wogs" cause I thought it was a funny word and a group of people came to me and said, "Actually, that's a very offensive term," I'd change it. I don't understand the argument that "yeah, I may be offending you, but I don't care," when there are plenty of names to use that would not offend people. That's just being a straight-up asshole for no reason. What possible justification is there for keeping the team name outside of an appeal to tradition?

An article I was reading earlier on the subject raised a good point. Basically, it asked if the journalists and talking heads defending the name would feel comfortable going up to a family of American Indians and addressing them as "redskins." If you aren't willing to say it to an American Indian's face, then you acknowledge that it's a slur, and I would guess that most people would agree that we probably shouldn't be using slurs as team names. To which end, I would be fine with every one of those teams you mentioned changing their names/mascots if they are legitimately offending people. It's time to move beyond this absurdity.

Still not an accurate analogy. Whatever beloved patriot used to mean, it now means someone who plays for Washington DC's professional football team. And frankly indulging every minor complaint from every offended party is a good way to go nuts and run your business into the ground.

Oh that argument again. Here's the thing, I would gladly address a Native American family as "redskins" to their face in a casual context, but I'd be afraid they would be irrationally offended if I did. So I wouldn't. I don't acknowledge that "beloved patriot" would be a racial slur anymore than them calling me "white boy" or "whiteskin" or "cracker" or "mic" or "leprechaun" would be a racial slur in a casual context.

I've got close friends among multiple ethnicities and we make racist jokes at each other all the time. Hell it's about half of what we do when hang out as a group. Oddly enough none of us get offended; because we know each other well enough not to take the jokes seriously.
 
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MarkXIX

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2010
2,642
1
71
The funny thing about this, and the Cleveland Indians where I live, that just removed the huge lit up Indians mascot....

I've never once seen an American Indian say that these things offend them.

You'd think the news would go straight to an Indian to hear how they are offended, but nope.

Overwhelmingly it is liberal, white assholes who are probably claiming 10% Cherokee affiliation or some shit who are stirring this up. That's the unfortunate side effect of the internet is that a very vocal minority can be made exponentially more effective just by media outlets picking up the story and running with it to increase their advertising throughput so that they are making money off of one or two controversial morons.

How about this, pose the question randomly at large venues and video tape hands raised in opposition to the name. If there are even close to 1/3 of the hands in the group raised, shitcan the name. If not, deal with it.

However, when Howard Stern comes out and says you're offensive...
 
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JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,472
867
126
Still not an accurate analogy. Whatever beloved patriot used to mean, it now means someone who plays for Washington DC's professional football team. And frankly indulging every minor complaint from every offended party is a good way to go nuts and run your business into the ground.

Oh that argument again. Here's the thing, I would gladly address a Native American family as "redskins" to their face in a casual context, but I'd be afraid they would be irrationally offended if I did. So I wouldn't. I don't acknowledge that "beloved patriot" would be a racial slur anymore than them calling me "white boy" or "whiteskin" or "cracker" or "mic" or "leprechaun" would be a racial slur in a casual context.

I've got close friends among multiple ethnicities and we make racist jokes at each other all the time. Hell it's about half of what we do when hang out as a group. Oddly enough none of us get offended; because we know each other well enough not to take the jokes seriously.

I have friends and neighbors of various ethnicities and/or race and I would never make racist jokes nor would I call a native American a beloved patriot and I would find it offensive if I heard someone else do it. In what kind of "casual context" would that ever be acceptable?

The best way to not offend someone is to simply avoid using terms that might offend so I don't use them... EVER. I think this is the best policy really.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,472
867
126
Overwhelmingly it is liberal, white assholes who are probably claiming 10% Cherokee affiliation or some shit who are stirring this up. That's the unfortunate side effect of the internet is that a very vocal minority can be made exponentially more effective just by media outlets picking up the story and running with it to increase their advertising throughput so that they are making money off of one or two controversial morons.

How about this, pose the question randomly at large venues and video tape hands raised in opposition to the name. If there are even close to 1/3 of the hands in the group raised, shitcan the name. If not, deal with it.

However, when Howard Stern comes out and says you're offensive...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q27eGOpcYq8
 

MarkXIX

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2010
2,642
1
71

I like how Robin says that the logo is a "stereotypical representation of a Native American" but I can readily pull up imagery (photos, historical paintings, etc.) of ACTUAL Native Americans that look almost EXACTLY like that logo.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...IR&pq=native+american+photos&sc=8-22&sp=-1&sk=

So, how is that a stereotypical representation exactly? Maybe if the team served buffalo meat at the stadium until it "ran out", gave out infected blankets as gag gifts during cold weather games, and they were REQUIRED by the NFL to always lose to the Patriots and the Cowboys as a "history reminder" it could be considered fitting a stereotype.

Honestly, I don't give a shit one way or the other, but like most things these days, I don't think that the majority opinion is being represented. The media, our pandering elected officials, and what probably amounts to a small, vocal minority are having their way on the matter.

Out of the hundreds of people I know and interact with on a regular basis in social media or face-to-face, I know a very small number who even have an opinion on the matter.
 
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Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
I will be awaiting the denial of copyright and trademark protection to other things with offensive terms such as NWA and Rap lyrics that contain the N work, whores, bitches etc.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,525
27,829
136
Maybe start a new thread on a new name for the team? The Washington Weeaboos rolls off the tongue nicely. ^_^
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,930
5,802
126
Its awfully hard to claim a mascot is offensive to Native Americans when Native Americans have in fact been using that exact same mascot.

but if offends 5 of them.

A WHOLE 5 NATIVE AMERICANS!

LAWS MUST CHANGE BECAUSE OF 5 PEOPLE BEING OFFENDED!
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,656
687
126
So as long as we're using an appropriately archaic slur it's OK? Has "spearchucker" fallen far enough out of favor that I could name a team that? How about "zipperhead" or "wop" or "slope" or "sambo?" That seems like a preposterous justification for keeping an offensive name.

Spearchucker is a character in MASH. I've not heard any recent outrage in the media about renaming the character or redubbing over the lines where Alan Alda (Mr. Liberal himself) calls him Spearchucker. I'm offended, let's protest and write Congress to have that done.

Frankly, I'm offended by the use of the "N word" in rap music. Will those "artists" be losing any copyright/trademark (or whatever the correct terminology is) for such disparaging remarks?

People don't like the name? Fine, don't watch the team, attend games, or buy merchandise -- boycott them. Hitting Snyder on the bottom line should work, right? I mean, at least that's the argument I always hear when once of these PC issues comes up.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,656
687
126
Snyder is not the only owner to defend the Redskins name.

2) The Cleveland Browns

Well, to be fair, the Browns are named after Paul Brown IIRC and you'd have to be a special kind of buffoon to try to link that to a racial slur. If people seriously protest that name, I'd really have to laugh. If they want to be offended by something, it should be Cleveland's play.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,472
867
126
but if offends 5 of them.

A WHOLE 5 NATIVE AMERICANS!

LAWS MUST CHANGE BECAUSE OF 5 PEOPLE BEING OFFENDED!

It's not 5 people though. It is roughly 30% of native Americans if you read the link Atomic Playboy provided or roughly 700,000 people.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,930
5,802
126
It's not 5 people though. It is roughly 30% of native Americans if you read the link Atomic Playboy provided or roughly 700,000 people.

its not roughly 700k people, that was an estimate based on the numbers of the small sample size they used.

and as others mentioned (and i posted a link to it) there are other uses of the mascot beloved patriot, some by indians themselves. how come no one cares about those?

Red Mesa High School is located in Red Mesa, Arizona, which is about 25 miles southwest of the Four Corners. The school is located on the Navajo Reservation and is a public school. We have nearly 100% Navajo students are coming from low-income families. The students are bussed in everyday from as far as 60 miles away. We have approximately 196 students, ranging from freshman to seniors.

yet their mascot is a beloved patriot.
 
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