Paternity and Maternity Leave

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AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
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I looked up a bunch of destinations from KC and you're nowhere near those prices.

Check out skyscanner.com

I fly all over the world, all the time, and I'm telling you that you can do it much cheaper. I just looked at a 3 week trip to London from KC and it was like $900 RT. Peak season was $1400 so it might be worth going off season and at least when I lived in the US flights with Southwest were crazy cheap so fly to a hub if you need to. Those same dates flying out of New York were $930. Surely you can find a domestic ticket to New York for less than $470.

Obviously I only put like 30 seconds into this to make a point but I'm trying to give you some hope that you can find much better deals. Try to avoid travelling during the summer and try to buy your tickets as early as possible. This summer I went to Indonesia and that was kinda stupid. Living in Sweden it really makes more sense to travel during the winter. Everything is cheaper and I get away from the darkness. I won't be making that mistake again.
 

Tango

Senior member
May 9, 2002
244
0
0
EU would honestly be the last place I'd want to visit as far as priority.

It all depends on what you are looking for. I love nature. I lived and traveled extensively in Africa, Asia and South America. I climb and hike and love the Rockies, Canada and the Pacific Northwest.

But what I live for is culture and art. And the concentration of western art in Italy and France is just incredible. You could literally spend the rest of your life just exploring Rome, and Rome alone, and you would still barely scratch the surface. To me it would unimaginable to live a life without seeing the treasures of the Renaissance, because they quite literally are the things that make my life most worth living.

Of course you won't find a savanna or a rainforest in Florence. So, yeah, it depends on what you are looking for.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,016
36
86
I've obviously lived in Europe but I've also spent many months travelling around Europe. It is a great place to visit but quite frankly the Euro has fucked it up. Maybe it's me but I can't justify some of the prices. Before the Euro you might pay 25 cents for something in Italy or Greece. The Euro shows up and suddenly everything is at least a dollar. That pisses me off. Rooms I stayed in during the 1990's cost 3 times as much today. That makes no sense and makes other destinations far more attractive to me.

Europe has some really nice nature if that's your thing. The Fjords of Norway and the Northern Lights. I'm heading up to Abisko National Park to see the northern lights early next year. I've seen them once before and they're amazing. Places like Plitvice Lakes in Croatia will give almost anything we have in the USA a serious run for its money. That place is AMAZING! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plitvice_Lakes_National_Park The greek islands, endless sunflower fields in Eastern Europe the Tullups in Holland. The Alps! There's plenty of nature here. Add to that the world class Museums - especially the Hermitage - and it's really a place you should visit. For someone like me who is into history it has some very special places too. Rome, Auschwitz, Berlin for example. You also can't duplicate the age of Europe in the US. This morning I checked out the Royal Cathedral in Stockholm for the first time. Lots of stuff in there that is very old. The church itself is from the 1200's. Pretty nice in there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storkyrkan

It all depends on what you are looking for. I love nature. I lived and traveled extensively in Africa, Asia and South America. I climb and hike and love the Rockies, Canada and the Pacific Northwest.

But what I live for is culture and art. And the concentration of western art in Italy and France is just incredible. You could literally spend the rest of your life just exploring Rome, and Rome alone, and you would still barely scratch the surface. To me it would unimaginable to live a life without seeing the treasures of the Renaissance, because they quite literally are the things that make my life most worth living.

Of course you won't find a savanna or a rainforest in Florence. So, yeah, it depends on what you are looking for.

Yes, I agree, EU has some very nice scenery. And for anyone wanting to experience culture (not my thing but I know there are many who live for it) along with the food that goes with it (again not a huge priority for me, despite me size haha), again, EU would be high on the list.

While I don't really have to worry about money at this point in my life, I'm certainly not rich, so I would have to pay attention to money at least to some degree. And that's really the rub with EU: For the money, along with the time getting there (and the jet lag that goes with it), from a nature perspective, I've got far more bang for my buck just taking in NA. Islands, easy and relatively cheap to get to here. And then further, Saharan Africa (no jungles for me, F that), the Middle East, and then possibly southern EU.

For me, typical Western EU would be one of the last places on my to experience list. The suggestions are noted though, appreciate them.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
Off season is much cheaper. You must have very high expectations and lavish needs to be budgeting that much.

Fly into low tax hubs. I flew LA to Bangkok in November for $650ish. You can fly to Bogota for like $500. I flew to Moscow for $700. I did Bali during the summer and airfare was about $1100 but I bought a bit late. Last year I bought tickets to Cape Town the day before I left and spent roughly $1200. Norwegian Air has tickets from Stockholm to LA for like $500 round trip. Lufthansa has them for $880 to San Francisco 2 years ago. A couple other tricks is to use a low cost airline to get to a cheaper airport. So from Stockholm it makes much more sense for me to fly Ryan Air to Frankfurt or London than it does to buy a ticket directly from Stockholm for most destinations.

I honestly don't even know how you could spend $5000-$10,000 per week for two people. I have traveled around the world and spend $1000 to $1500 a month and that includes living it up, diving, adventure sports, safaris, trekking, and pretty much doing anything I wanted. Going nuts with like 10 domestic flights in China and seeing everything I spent about $3000 for 5 weeks. I think the key is to cut down on hotel costs though. I only sleep there so why waste tons of money on a bed? Even if you did a $250 a night place you still wouldn't get to $5000 with airfare and everything. Your math is way off.

Maybe this is the problem. Nobody tells Americans how to travel. If everyone thinks it's going to cost $5K-$10K a week there is no wonder that nobody is getting a passport and travelling.

The wife and I spent 10 days in France in May and the cost was close to $6k. We spent 12 or 13 days in France and Italy in November 2009 and the cost was similar. Yes, we could've saved money by doing a few things differently but we stayed at modest places the way it was. That kind of money isn't much for us so we're not concerned with nickel and diming ourselves to death.

Those bargain airline prices cited in this thread often come with many catches and you often get stuck in crappy middle seats. Occasionally we will see some good deals come across on airfare (particularly to Ireland) but the times never align to when we want to go. I do think November is a great time to go to Europe though as it is much cheaper and far less crowded.
 
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IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
If it wasn't for my parent situation, I could travel basically anywhere in the world; 4 weeks of vaca, unpaid time off available, money not a realistic issue.

Why would I blow money going to EU when I could tour the US for far cheaper? Other than the historical nature of their architecture, I'm going there...for what?

There is far more there than architecture. Go to France and tour the D-Day beaches and the American cemetery at Omaha Beach and tell me that it isn't one of the most amazing experiences of your life. (HINT: It is absolutely stunning and amazing).

Go to Rome and literally stand on the street where Caesar walked. Go to the Louvre and gaze on pottery someone built and used 6,000 years ago.

Food? Sure, the US has better steak. I'll get that out of the way first. But the food in Europe is amazing.

For me, I go for all of the above reasons -- the historical aspects, the food, the experiences -- and architecture is a very, very small part of it.

...and if/when I do go outside the US, why would I go to a place that is the same as where I'm from? If I'm going to travel, I'm going to islands, Africa, the ME, Russia...not EU.
Don't kid yourself -- the EU is very different from the US. You notice it immediately. Sure, there are commonalities but the differences are immediately visible on arrival.

You have to travel where you want to travel, no argument there, but don't assume that going to Paris is like going to Chicago. Everything is very different.

My father-in-law is as middle American as they come and really didn't seem to have a desire to travel to Europe. His employer sent him to France for a month for work, and he LOVED it. He was amazed at how different it really was.
 

AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
1
0
His math isn't way off. The wife and I spent 10 days in France in May and the cost was close to $6k. We spent 12 or 13 days in France and Italy in November 2009 and the cost was similar. Yes, we could've saved money by doing a few things differently but we stayed at modest places the way it was. That kind of money isn't much for us so we're not concerned with nickel and diming ourselves to death.

Those bargain airline prices cited in this thread often come with many catches and you often get stuck in crappy middle seats.

I have never experienced that. What airlines force you into middle seats? Every airline I have every flown has 2 options. You either pick your own seats or first come first serve. Never been forced into middle seats. I always sit aisle unless I'm with the girlfriend and then we sit by the window for her sake. If anything the catch is that if you bring too much luggage they will screw you. That's not hard to prepare for. Just pay for your luggage ahead of time and don't be overweight. Also, get on the plane when they board and don't be the last one there. Easy for me to say though since I get on the plane and fall asleep before take off.

10 days in France and you say it cost you $6000. Airfare would have been at most $2500 for both of you flying into Paris. I definitely agree that you guys away from the coasts get a bit screwed on airfare. I've searched KC and Indianapolis and it's hundreds more than the coasts. I'm not up to speed on domestic airlines in the US that can get you to a hub cheaper, but when I lived in the US Southwest was a cheap way to do it. Unless you bought the tickets last minute though the tickets are still not outrageously priced. That leaves $3500 for 10 days. You two spent $350 a day. That requires spending a great deal of money on a hotel. There are so many options nowadays. Staying in an expensive hotel is not a requirement. Now this might be irrelevant to you since you can afford to spend whatever you want but I'm trying to point out to others reading this that you do not need these huge sums of money to travel. I've done everything from sleeping at train stations to staying in expensive eco-resorts, all inclusive resorts, and high rise hotels and there are so many ways to travel without spending a fortune. Of course you're free to spend as much as you want but it's not necessary.

Keep in mind that there are plenty of places around the world that are much cheaper than France. IND to Bogota through JFK is $650. When I was in Africa there were tons of Americans there because there were super cheap RT $500 tickets to Cape Town from JFK.

If it was me, and this is all personal opinion, and I was going to spend $6000 on a 10 day trip I would hit up the Maldives, Seychelles, Raja Ampat Islands, Galapagos, or something of that nature. If I was set on Europe I would rent an apartment since you can get much nicer accommodation that way. Stockholm is crazy expensive but you can rent an apt for much less than a hotel without much trouble. I would also look at the internet. There are so many resources available. I spent $10 a night living in an awesome Chateau in the French Alps in Chamonix. I think I got a bit lucky with that one but regardless travelling does not have to cost you $6000 for 10 days.

If anyone wants to travel you can hit up most of the world for less than $50 per day plus airfare.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
I have never experienced that. What airlines force you into middle seats? Every airline I have every flown has 2 options. You either pick your own seats or first come first serve.

I'm talking about the really cheap options through some of these third-party travel agencies that will occasionally email with incredible rates -- those are usually leftover seats no one else wants, like crappy middle seats. Your standard search for Delta, United, etc on Expedia or other travel sites will let you choose.

10 days in France and you say it cost you $6000. Airfare would have been at most $2500 for both of you flying into Paris. I definitely agree that you guys away from the coasts get a bit screwed on airfare. I've searched KC and Indianapolis and it's hundreds more than the coasts.
It was probably between $5000 and $6000. The costs I do know are airfare and hotel/train/museum/tour passes. Airfare was roughly $2400. Hotels, train tickets, museum passes, and the two tours we went on (Normandy, Mont St. Michel) totaled roughly $2400. $4800 already with no meals accounted for yet.

Meals for two people for the remainder of the time were probably in the $500 - $700 for two people for 10 days. I never sat down and added them up so it might have been more. What we tried to do was buy pastries locally for breakfast and eat cheap or from the local grocery stores for lunch. We'd splurge on dinner.

Airline costs shocked me to be honest. When we went in 2009, the cost was around $1000-$1100 for our tickets and that included a second flight from Paris to Rome!

I'm not up to speed on domestic airlines in the US that can get you to a hub cheaper, but when I lived in the US Southwest was a cheap way to do it. Unless you bought the tickets last minute though the tickets are still not outrageously priced.
Going from Indy to a hub isn't terrible. We could fly out of Chicago and sometimes Cincinnati has flights to Europe. Indy does have several cargo flights every week to Luxembourg, so maybe I can stow away on one of those.

That leaves $3500 for 10 days. You two spent $350 a day. That requires spending a great deal of money on a hotel. There are so many options nowadays. Staying in an expensive hotel is not a requirement. Now this might be irrelevant to you since you can afford to spend whatever you want but I'm trying to point out to others reading this that you do not need these huge sums of money to travel. I've done everything from sleeping at train stations to staying in expensive eco-resorts, all inclusive resorts, and high rise hotels and there are so many ways to travel without spending a fortune. Of course you're free to spend as much as you want but it's not necessary.
Hotels in downtown Paris are around $200/night for modest accommodations, give or take $20. That price is for a small, one room hotel room with its own bathroom. I don't recall what our stay was in Normandy per night, but my wife booked all the hotels, the train to/from Normandy, and the two tours and it all came to $2400 so we were paying less than $200/night for hotels.

There is no way I'd stay in a hostel or a super cheap, 1 star hotel. I'll spend for decent accommodations.

Keep in mind that there are plenty of places around the world that are much cheaper than France. IND to Bogota through JFK is $650. When I was in Africa there were tons of Americans there because there were super cheap RT $500 tickets to Cape Town from JFK.
Other than Europe, there are only a handful of places I want to go at this point -- a couple of Asian and North African destinations and maybe Peru. I was in Brazil in 2004 and found it "meh." I was in South Korea in 2004 and definitely want to go back because I think I missed out on some things I needed to see.

If it was me, and this is all personal opinion, and I was going to spend $6000 on a 10 day trip I would hit up the Maldives, Seychelles, Raja Ampat Islands, Galapagos, or something of that nature. If I was set on Europe I would rent an apartment since you can get much nicer accommodation that way. Stockholm is crazy expensive but you can rent an apt for much less than a hotel without much trouble. I would also look at the internet. There are so many resources available. I spent $10 a night living in an awesome Chateau in the French Alps in Chamonix. I think I got a bit lucky with that one but regardless travelling does not have to cost you $6000 for 10 days.

If anyone wants to travel you can hit up most of the world for less than $50 per day plus airfare.
Can you rent an apartment for 7 to 14 days at a time? For that short period, do you save that much over a hotel?

There are a couple of travel agencies that do offer insane deals on packaged European vacations and get good reviews, and we've thought about trying one when we want to go but are crunched for time.
 
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AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
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Yeah you can rent short term. European capitals for the most part all are suffering from a lack of housing. Everyone wants to live there and people with apts take advantage of this. In Stockholm you can stay in a hostel for about $100 per night for two of you. Your own room with en suite. A dorm bed costs about $35. Or you can stay at a decent hotel. Depending on the location the Radison costs between $100 (airport) and about $200. The one in the best part of town on the water costs $235 and there's one in a palace/castle thingy for $370. However you can rent out an apt for around $100-$150 a night in a good part of town. Depends on how big the apt is and a few other factors. Some do it by the night, week, or month. Stockholm is one of the most expensive cities in the world though. Someone on a budget should not be coming here.

I gotta give a full disclaimer here though. Those travelling for really short times kinda get hosed on costs. I've traveled by train around Europe for months at a time and when you do that and get the passes it really isn't that expensive per day. Buying single train tickets though is insanely expensive and costs more than flying. If you rent out an apt by the month it might cost you $1500 for a small apt not in the city center and that's only $50 a night. However when you're doing it really short times these costs add up significantly. Depending on the location it might not even be worth going. China for example cost me $165 just for the Visa. If I was spending 5 days there and shooting for a $50 per day budget that would be impossible. I spent 5 weeks there though and spent about $100 per day on average including domestic airfare.

I'm not a fan of packaged vacations. Been there done that and have never been satisfied. It's also the more expensive way to do things. Personally I'd rather do it on my own so that I'm not being forced to leave a spot that I might really like and want to enjoy for longer. Tours are the worst since you never get enough time. In some places you can really get ripped off since they will bus you to tourist markets and keep you there for hours hoping you'll buy something. Definitely not my thing.

I buy a guide book, plane ticket, and go. The $10 chateau I found? I remember where I got the suggestion. One of the Rick Steves books.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
I'm not a fan of packaged vacations. Been there done that and have never been satisfied. It's also the more expensive way to do things. Personally I'd rather do it on my own so that I'm not being forced to leave a spot that I might really like and want to enjoy for longer. Tours are the worst since you never get enough time. In some places you can really get ripped off since they will bus you to tourist markets and keep you there for hours hoping you'll buy something. Definitely not my thing.

Most of the packaged vacations I've seen are fly and drive packages which include airfare, choice of hotels, a car, and sometimes one meal per day. We've thought about trying one because we've seen a few that are just a little more expensive than airfare alone and they get good reviews. I haven't looked closely at the flight aspect so I'm wondering if we'd get stuck in the dreaded middle seats!

I agree with you about the guided tours aspect. We did do a guided tour to Normandy and Mont St. Michel and they were great and fortunately didn't force us into tourist traps (though Mont St. Michel is a HUGE tourist trap and I won't be going back there ).

I buy a guide book, plane ticket, and go. The $10 chateau I found? I remember where I got the suggestion. One of the Rick Steves books.

We're devoted Rick Steves fans and my wife is the one who generally selects hotels, restaurants, etc. based on advice she finds in his books. I think next year we're likely heading to Ireland or the UK and am sure we'll pick places out of his books to visit and room at.
 

AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,264
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I've bought two of his books and they paid for themselves so quickly. The two biggest tips though were that place in the Alps and how to avoid the line at the Louvre. I literally just walked right on in and that was awesome. He definitely knows his stuff.

The package deals kinda suck since even if the flight is good then maybe the breakfast is only a piece of toast. You gotta check these things out closely. I did an all inclusive trip to Cancun and although the flight, food, and accommodation were pretty good the place was half empty so I was bored out of my mind and had to leave anyways and somehow they managed to get the alcohol out of all their alcohol. I still don't understand how they did that. They didn't taste like water. Tours just infuriate me. I did the tour to Auschwitz for example and they ran us through there like rats in a maze. I said fuck it and just left the tour and took a local bus back into Krakow that evening. There's always something.

I think today you're better off either getting a guide book, checking the internet, or both for self guided tours and how to do it yourself. I really haven't had a bad experience doing it that way. We all have smart phones with us so it is so easy to just look it up en route. Need a hotel and don't have time to think about it? Tripadvisor might not be the best but it will save you in a pinch if you're travelling between cities on your own schedule.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,016
36
86
There is far more there than architecture. Go to France and tour the D-Day beaches and the American cemetery at Omaha Beach and tell me that it isn't one of the most amazing experiences of your life. (HINT: It is absolutely stunning and amazing).

Go to Rome and literally stand on the street where Caesar walked. Go to the Louvre and gaze on pottery someone built and used 6,000 years ago.

Yes, I'm sure Normandy is amazing. When I said Western historical, I meant from a couple thousand years ago (more if one includes Greece and Rome) up through WWII/Cold War sites. My point is, yes, for me, the history is interesting. Yes, the architecture is interesting. But what's more interesting, for me, is the adventure of driving across a ME desert, or hiking the Sahara, or backpacking through the mountains. Or what's around the next bend on the coast of this island. One has to pick their priorities, budget the time and money for them, and then go do them. Right now I can't, I've got two parents I've committed to take care of until they're gone. After they are, I'd need to get in shape (if not by then), and then start enjoying life for myself. As I said before while I'm not rich I'm just fine on money vs. expenditures and income. I could have a hell of a vacation in NA for what'd it cost me to go see EU.

Food? Sure, the US has better steak. I'll get that out of the way first. But the food in Europe is amazing.

Food is great. I love food (I love Pepsi even more ). But a really good food experience for me is definitely secondary to the nature experience...which really is the nature and adventure experience. I would be fine sitting in a tent in a bad t-storm, eating trail mix, stuck way out in the back country. To me that's living life. Paying $150 for 12 oz. of food while the French waiter is condescending to you because you're American...I can do without that.

For me, I go for all of the above reasons -- the historical aspects, the food, the experiences -- and architecture is a very, very small part of it.

And for you that's great. I'm just saying, for me, I have other priorities.

Don't kid yourself -- the EU is very different from the US. You notice it immediately. Sure, there are commonalities but the differences are immediately visible on arrival.

You have to travel where you want to travel, no argument there, but don't assume that going to Paris is like going to Chicago. Everything is very different.

I should have stated that better: What I meant was climate. I don't see Central and Northern EU as really any different than anywhere I could go in the US to tour. Where as, lets say Norther Africa, or the ME, that is definitely different.

My father-in-law is as middle American as they come and really didn't seem to have a desire to travel to Europe. His employer sent him to France for a month for work, and he LOVED it. He was amazed at how different it really was.

I'm sure it was. But my Co is pretty unlikely to send me to EU (or anywhere else) which means I'll have to use my own time and money to go there. As I said above, priorities...

We've got way off thread topic...

Chuck
 

Tango

Senior member
May 9, 2002
244
0
0
When I travel in Europe I always rent apartments instead of getting a hotel room. The experience is far more immersive.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
Thanks guys, we'll definitely look for apartments next time we spend some time in a major European city. I think we're likely going to Ireland next year and we'll be all over the place, so we'll use BnBs extensively.
 
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