Patriot Act Renewed

[HombrePequeno]

Anybody have a list of the congressmen that voted yes on this?

 

[daveshel]

Originally posted by: joshw10
Why would anyone in the federal government, republican or democrat, vote against something that gives them more power? Wouldn't you vote for something at your job if it gives you and your friends more power?

It doesn't give any more power to legislators. The AG and the various law enforcement bodies get the extra power. I would think the legislative branch would have good reason to oppose the strengthening of the power of the administrative branch.

 

[JackStorm]

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Anybody have a list of the congressmen that voted yes on this?

Here you go

 

[zendari]

Haha, the Dems complaining about the Repubs "abusing power" while they maintained their judicial filibusters. :roll: What a joke.

It is important to have the tools to fight the war on terror.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

I'm not a huge fan of the partriot act but I can see it's purpose. To tell the truth it doesn't send me into a panic when I read about it.

What really blows my mind is all this ire over a piece of legislation that has the potential for abuse when we have legislation in place right now that actually restricts the most sacred of rights... the right to free political speech. McCain/Feingold hullooo...

 

[Duckzilla]

I'm glad that my government cares enough about me to compromise my freedom somewhat. In fact, they have my permission. It's still my belief that innocent people have nothing to fear from the Patriot Act, even if they ARE inconvenienced. That, and a good bump.

Tough times...

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: zendari
Haha, the Dems complaining about the Repubs "abusing power" while they maintained their judicial filibusters. :roll: What a joke.

It is important to have the right tools to fight the war on terror.

Amended. Simply giving random powers to law enforcement isn't how you fight any threat, terror or otherwise. It is not obvious to me what problems in our ability to fight terrorism the Patriot Act is fixing, and it is equally obvious that real problems are NOT being addressed.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Duckzilla
I'm glad that my government cares enough about me to compromise my freedom somewhat. In fact, they have my permission. It's still my belief that innocent people have nothing to fear from the Patriot Act, even if they ARE inconvenienced. That, and a good bump.

Tough times...

Ignore the ethical issues of limiting freedom to fight the war on terror, what makes you think the Patriot Act is making you ANY safer, because the government tells you so? This IS still America, right?

 

[Duckzilla]

Because they are looking up Arab (Muslim, dark-skinned, funny names, whatever) Amecians' asses with microscopes? As they should be.

Makes sense to me.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Duckzilla
Because they are looking up Arab (Muslim, dark-skinned, funny names, whatever) Amecians' asses with microscopes? As they should be.

Makes sense to me.

And any one elses they want to as well.

BTW, I never gave them this permission.

We need the old USSR and ship those who want to surrender their freedoms there.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Duckzilla
Because they are looking up Arab (Muslim, dark-skinned, funny names, whatever) Amecians' asses with microscopes? As they should be.

Makes sense to me.

And that makes us safer how?

Looking at the issue for any length of time will pretty much demonstrate that our problem isn't with information gathering, it's with piecing the information together, and figuring out what's the important information to go after in the first place. Increased information gathering about any group, Arab or otherwise, is not only not going to solve that problem, it's going to make things worse.

Think about it. Suppose, as you suggest, law enforcement is spending resources looking at a ton of people, casting a large net as it were. Such a net can't go very deep, because new powers or not, every agency is still limited by resources. Instead of using them intelligently, they are investigating everyone who's checked out Islam related books from the library, while any terrorist with half a brain evades their shallow probing.

Like I've said before, it seems pretty clear that most people fundamentally misunderstand security, so the result is idiot laws that do nothing to protect us, and might actually be making us LESS safe.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Duckzilla
Because they are looking up Arab (Muslim, dark-skinned, funny names, whatever) Amecians' asses with microscopes? As they should be.

Makes sense to me.

And any one elses they want to as well.

BTW, I never gave them this permission.

We need the old USSR and ship those who want to surrender their freedoms there.

I agree that the ethical issues are important as well. The only reason I'm not mentioning them is that I believe they are secondary in this discussion. Supporters of these laws suggest that giving up some rights to be safer is worth it. That statement itself is pretty weird, but it might not even apply. Everyone assumes the Patriot Act is helping...but nobody really thinks about it.

 

[Duckzilla]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Duckzilla
Because they are looking up Arab (Muslim, dark-skinned, funny names, whatever) Amecians' asses with microscopes? As they should be.

Makes sense to me.

And any one elses they want to as well.

BTW, I never gave them this permission.

We need the old USSR and ship those who want to surrender their freedoms there.

I agree that the ethical issues are important as well. The only reason I'm not mentioning them is that I believe they are secondary in this discussion. Supporters of these laws suggest that giving up some rights to be safer is worth it. That statement itself is pretty weird, but it might not even apply. Everyone assumes the Patriot Act is helping...but nobody really thinks about it.

They are primary to this issue and to deny makes you a liar! Who here is a Muslim? No one has anything to fear unless they're breaking the law. Personal inconvenience doesn't count in light of national security, be it mine or yours.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Duckzilla

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Duckzilla
Because they are looking up Arab (Muslim, dark-skinned, funny names, whatever) Amecians' asses with microscopes? As they should be.

Makes sense to me.

And any one elses they want to as well.

BTW, I never gave them this permission.

We need the old USSR and ship those who want to surrender their freedoms there.

I agree that the ethical issues are important as well. The only reason I'm not mentioning them is that I believe they are secondary in this discussion. Supporters of these laws suggest that giving up some rights to be safer is worth it. That statement itself is pretty weird, but it might not even apply. Everyone assumes the Patriot Act is helping...but nobody really thinks about it.

They are primary to this issue and to deny makes you a liar! Who here is a Muslim? No one has anything to fear unless they're breaking the law. Personal inconvenience doesn't count in light of national security, be it mine or yours.

What...?

I don't think you could possibly have missed my point any more than you seem to have. I'm not talking about ethics, because I'm not convinced the Patriot Act is a good solution. Or more broadly, that an increased level of inconvenience has a positive impact on national security. We can discuss the ethical aspects all day long, but it's all moot if the debated solution doesn't even work.

Maybe I should phrase this more clearly. The Patriot Act doesn't make is safer. It doesn't solve our security problems.

 

[Duckzilla]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Duckzilla

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Duckzilla
Because they are looking up Arab (Muslim, dark-skinned, funny names, whatever) Amecians' asses with microscopes? As they should be.

Makes sense to me.

And any one elses they want to as well.

BTW, I never gave them this permission.

We need the old USSR and ship those who want to surrender their freedoms there.

I agree that the ethical issues are important as well. The only reason I'm not mentioning them is that I believe they are secondary in this discussion. Supporters of these laws suggest that giving up some rights to be safer is worth it. That statement itself is pretty weird, but it might not even apply. Everyone assumes the Patriot Act is helping...but nobody really thinks about it.

They are primary to this issue and to deny makes you a liar! Who here is a Muslim? No one has anything to fear unless they're breaking the law. Personal inconvenience doesn't count in light of national security, be it mine or yours.

What...?

I don't think you could possibly have missed my point any more than you seem to have. I'm not talking about ethics, because I'm not convinced the Patriot Act is a good solution. Or more broadly, that an increased level of inconvenience has a positive impact on national security. We can discuss the ethical aspects all day long, but it's all moot if the debated solution doesn't even work.

Maybe I should phrase this more clearly. The Patriot Act doesn't make is safer. It doesn't solve our security problems.

You may ask me to provide evidence proving that it has made us safer. I would ask you to provide evidence that it has not.

Where's the harm?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Duckzilla

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Duckzilla

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Duckzilla
Because they are looking up Arab (Muslim, dark-skinned, funny names, whatever) Amecians' asses with microscopes? As they should be.

Makes sense to me.

And any one elses they want to as well.

BTW, I never gave them this permission.

We need the old USSR and ship those who want to surrender their freedoms there.

I agree that the ethical issues are important as well. The only reason I'm not mentioning them is that I believe they are secondary in this discussion. Supporters of these laws suggest that giving up some rights to be safer is worth it. That statement itself is pretty weird, but it might not even apply. Everyone assumes the Patriot Act is helping...but nobody really thinks about it.

They are primary to this issue and to deny makes you a liar! Who here is a Muslim? No one has anything to fear unless they're breaking the law. Personal inconvenience doesn't count in light of national security, be it mine or yours.

What...?

I don't think you could possibly have missed my point any more than you seem to have. I'm not talking about ethics, because I'm not convinced the Patriot Act is a good solution. Or more broadly, that an increased level of inconvenience has a positive impact on national security. We can discuss the ethical aspects all day long, but it's all moot if the debated solution doesn't even work.

Maybe I should phrase this more clearly. The Patriot Act doesn't make is safer. It doesn't solve our security problems.

You may ask me to provide evidence proving that it has made us safer. I would ask you to provide evidence that it has not.

Where's the harm?

Obviously evidence is a little hard to come by for both of us. However, nobody has explained to me how the Patriot Act would have, for example, prevented 9/11. Reports during the investigation after 9/11 revealed that the intelligence and law enforcement community had most of the pieces, and with 20/20 hindsight they were able to very quickly put together an idea of what happened. To me, this suggests that their investigative powers were fine, it was their ability to gain significant intelligence from that information that was lacking. And you can only correct so much of that, at some point what seems crystal clear in hindsight might be impossible to see while it's going on. The bottom line is that MOST experts seem so suggest that issue is one of analysis, not collection. In other words, if they had known where to look in their data, and where to focus more investigating power, existing powers would almost certainly have allowed them to stop 9/11. On the other hand, the Patriot Act does nothing to make either of those processes work any better. It fixes the wrong problem.

But, as you say, where's the harm. Except that's not how our legal system works, we don't just make laws for the hell of it. Unless it's possible to show exactly what problem is being fixed, and how the law fixes it, I see no reason to make a law.

 

[Duckzilla]

When I go places and talk to people, no one mentions the Patriot Act. It doesn't affect them. They talk about the weather, price of gas or whatever, never the Patriot Act. It's a non-issue for them because it doesn't affect them.

And if my government thinks we need it, I trust them. Dems and Repubicans voting together. Imagine that. There is something to be gained; we just don't have knowledge of it.

 

[Elderly Newt]

Originally posted by: Duckzilla
When I go places and talk to people, no one mentions the Patriot Act. It doesn't affect them. They talk about the weather, price of gas or whatever, never the Patriot Act. It's a non-issue for them because it doesn't affect them.

And if my government thinks we need it, I trust them. Dems and Repubicans voting together. Imagine that. There is something to be gained; we just don't have knowledge of it.

That kind of blind trust in the government is a dangerous thing.

 

[imported_yetti]

today is a sad, sad day for the US.

 

[rustynails]

Originally posted by: joshsquall
Please provide links to articles about non-Terrorists and non-criminals who have been affected negatively by the Patriot Act.

im waiting...

 

[morkinva]

appropriate cartoon

 

[imported_alp]

it still has to pass the senate, right?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Duckbill
When I go places and talk to people, no one mentions the Patriot Act. It doesn't affect them. They talk about the weather, price of gas or whatever, never the Patriot Act. It's a non-issue for them because it doesn't affect them.

And if my government thinks we need it, I trust them. Dems and Repubicans voting together. Imagine that. There is something to be gained; we just don't have knowledge of it.

When Thomas Jefferson said "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" he was not thinking in the context of foreign threats. He was thinking of your attitude.

Our freedom exists independently of government. It was feared long ago that what the Founders created might one day lead to a loss of liberty. More than any Bin Laden, those who we elect as temporary lords have power over us. You may recall that the Patriot Act was sold to law enforcement as something they could use against US citizens outside of terrorism.

You trust the government too much. You should fear it as a necessary evil.

You will recall I have had first hand experience of the kindness of those in power. It was distinctly lacking.

No, I've been around those who have real power to trust them, beyond my early experience. If you get on the wrong side of some you will quickly learn why you would NOT want them to have more. Of course by then, it's too late. The have it, and will not give it up. Nothing you do will get them to give it up.

One more step down the slippery slope.

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: JackStorm

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Anybody have a list of the congressmen that voted yes on this?

Here you go

Thank you kindly. I don't think I'll ever be voting for the people on the AYES list.

 

[Smaug]

Originally posted by: rustynails

Originally posted by: joshsquall
Please provide links to articles about non-Terrorists and non-criminals who have been affected negatively by the Patriot Act.

im waiting...

Here you go

The problem with the patriot act is you don't know if it's been abused or not. If they did a search of your home, without anyone knowing about it but a secret court, you would never know.

We have a justice system, and we must follow it. For a group of people talking so much about Freedom, defending an act that destroys many parts of the judicial system, is really funny.


Ironically the way most have been, while not necessarily negatively, but certainly impacted. More in the annoyance factor. Is the banking regulation coming from the Patriot act. The 2 ID's thing is such a pain in the ass, especially since Drivers Licenses and Credit Cards are pretty easy to fake.

Is the patriot act all bad? No

There are very reasonable provisions in there. Yet secret records, secret investigations, Hoover anyone?