paver patio options... buy pavers or mold + concrete?

[gorcorps]

I'm starting to plan my paver patio installation for possibly this year, but maybe next year. Right now I'm trying to decide between using pre-made paver stones or getting a mold and mixing/pouring my own concrete.

Is the groundwork prep the same on both of these? As far as I know you need to dig up and grade the ground for proper drainage, then have a good 4" of compacted gravel base, then 1" of paver sand. Would that be the same if I was pouring my own concrete? I assumed so, so the only price variance will come from the pavers themselves.

I'm leaning towards mixing my own just because of the cost aspect. It may not have as nice of a surface finish, but it'd be an improvement on what I have now. This is my first house and won't be my last, but I'd like to have some better outdoor space.

 

[RagingBITCH]

Yes, same base. You can also look at utilizing something like Brock paver base - it's a foam (polypropylene) that negates having to use the gravel base and paver sand. It's ideal for the standard paver patio stones, provided it's compacted properly. We used it on our back pergola and around the pool, but given the fact that we used natural flagstone w/ uneven heights, wasn't the best choice. For a standard patio paver install, we'd use it again in a heartbeat.

As for pouring your own - after about 5, you'll regret doing it the manual way. At least I would. Depends on how big of a space you plan on doing too, and how big each paver will be. Thinking about the labor involved, spacing the mold for consistency, (assuming you are laying mold on ground and pouring each one) etc. It's cool and you can custom color them all to how you want it - just a trade-off b/t all the manual work and just buying them off the shelf.

 

[todpod]

I just created about 500 paver stones out of concrete. Started laying them yesterday. For the bulk of them I used 9 inch round and square cake pans from Walmart. I also create a few molds as well. Theses are bigger made with plywood and furring strips. I hand mixed about 75 bags of concrete. I had 50 of the cake pans. 4 bags of concrete were about 50 stones give or take. On a good day I could pour a hundred of the small ones with a morning pour and an evening pour. You have to be careful removing them because they are still pretty green. If you bust one just bust it into little pieces and mix with the other ones.

The key is patience, if you have time you could create a huge number of these. I did mine in about three weeks. You do have to let them set a while so they can properly cure.

 

[Humpy]

I can't imagine that DIY pavers would have nearly the longevity of factory made.

 

[todpod]

I can't imagine that DIY pavers would have nearly the longevity of factory made.

I think the big difference, are factory ones are made almost dry with very little water. The more water the weaker the concrete. The pavers I did are thicker which should help.

 

[paperfist]

I just created about 500 paver stones out of concrete. Started laying them yesterday. For the bulk of them I used 9 inch round and square cake pans from Walmart. I also create a few molds as well. Theses are bigger made with plywood and furring strips. I hand mixed about 75 bags of concrete. I had 50 of the cake pans. 4 bags of concrete were about 50 stones give or take. On a good day I could pour a hundred of the small ones with a morning pour and an evening pour. You have to be careful removing them because they are still pretty green. If you bust one just bust it into little pieces and mix with the other ones.

The key is patience, if you have time you could create a huge number of these. I did mine in about three weeks. You do have to let them set a while so they can properly cure.

I tip my cap to you that's not an easy job!

I poured a concrete pad for my shed once thinking no big deal. 35 bags of concrete later and I was thinking what was I thinking!

I purchased some nice pavers for the front of my house that were each different colors. Man am I pissed that the color is now fading. I guess I didn't realize the color didn't go all the way through the paver.

 

[gorcorps]

I tip my cap to you that's not an easy job!

I poured a concrete pad for my shed once thinking no big deal. 35 bags of concrete later and I was thinking what was I thinking!

I purchased some nice pavers for the front of my house that were each different colors. Man am I pissed that the color is now fading. I guess I didn't realize the color didn't go all the way through the paver.

See and they sell concrete dye which lets you color your home made ones too. I don't really think the factory made ones are always going to be better than handmade. You can buy really nice pre-made pavers but the cost may be not be worth it. I don't need it to last a lifetime, maybe just 10 years.

 

[Mandres]

You can also look at utilizing something like Brock paver base - it's a foam (polypropylene) that negates having to use the gravel base and paver sand.

Interesting, I've never heard of this particular product. I pulled up the installation instructions and it looks like you still need a compacted base and a layer of sand underneath the Brock foam? What's the point then?

http://www.brockpaverbase.com/paver-base-installation/

 

[paperfist]

See and they sell concrete dye which lets you color your home made ones too. I don't really think the factory made ones are always going to be better than handmade. You can buy really nice pre-made pavers but the cost may be not be worth it. I don't need it to last a lifetime, maybe just 10 years.

Yepp and I went almost 2 hours away to pick up these pavers. I can't remember the name now.

But pavers are concrete, they should last almost forever as long as you install them right with the crushed base and sand.

IMHO home made ones will last just as long as any store bought one and like you said you can dye them which will go through the entire paver. So long as you mix up the concrete right you shouldn't have any problems.

 

[gorcorps]

Interesting, I've never heard of this particular product. I pulled up the installation instructions and it looks like you still need a compacted base and a layer of sand underneath the Brock foam? What's the point then?

http://www.brockpaverbase.com/paver-base-installation/

Look again, they only have a layer of sand... no gravel paver base

Basically it just adds the drainage paths under the pavers which is what the gravel did anyway. So by using these you don't need gravel. The gravel usually needs to be 4" deep, so it adds quite a bit of depth to the hole you need to initially dig, as well as needing to buy 4" of that gravel. The thought of getting rid of that step sounds pretty awesome to me.

 

[DrPizza]

Another thought - watch Craigslist for pavers. A pressure washer and they look good as new. You might be able to score a large quantity for a fraction of the "new" price. If you're willing to do the work of pouring them to save money, you may as well do the work of tearing out someone else's patio to save money.

 

[gorcorps]

Another thought - watch Craigslist for pavers. A pressure washer and they look good as new. You might be able to score a large quantity for a fraction of the "new" price. If you're willing to do the work of pouring them to save money, you may as well do the work of tearing out someone else's patio to save money.

Good point. Depending on the deal though I'm not sure I have the manpower to get them myself. Definitely don't have the vehicle for it, so I'd have to rent one.

 

[Humpy]

I think the big difference, are factory ones are made almost dry with very little water. The more water the weaker the concrete. The pavers I did are thicker which should help.

Perfect amount of water and admixtures, dry materials are consistently mixed in bulk, compressed into a mold to create good density, and cured in optimal conditions which would all be difficult to accomplish on a small scale.

Not that DIY can't be done well and be worth it if someone has more time than money, or just enjoys the process. With expectations measured accordingly, one method isn't better or worse than the other.

How the patio will actually be used should be the main consideration IMO. For an outdoor dining area nothing really beats a nice flat concrete slab that can easily be kept clean and tables/chairs won't rock. If it's more a place to just hang out and drink beer while you watch the grill then a more irregular surface won't be a problem. If it's just something to keep the weeds and mud away from the back door for a few years then almost anything will work.

 

[Subyman]

Humpy, remember that commercially made paver aren't necessarily made "optimally" for quality, but are made optimally for cost. I'd think they would add as much filler and use as little energy as possible to last through transport and install. I'd be surprised to hear that they would expend energy to heat and pressurize the pavers. They may agitate them to remove air, but I would think they would naturally dry them. Possibly they would choose an ideal location for the factory as to reduce energy costs. IIRC, a slower drying time is actually better for strength so the crystalline structure has more time to develop and internal heat doesn't build up causing cracks.

Maybe there is a how-its-made about them! I'm curious now.

I would tend to believe a properly made homemade paver would actually be stronger because the home owner could use a better mixture versus what the penny pinching manufacturers use.

 

[todpod]

An interesting side note, was talking to my brother yesterday and mentioned I was thinking of getting a little concrete mixer. It would be easier then mixing by hand. He said don't do that he had one. He bought a garage and it has a commercial concrete mixer in it with a new electric motor. That would have saved me a ton of work. Now I can mixer more concrete.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Humpy, remember that commercially made paver aren't necessarily made "optimally" for quality, but are made optimally for cost. I'd think they would add as much filler and use as little energy as possible to last through transport and install. I'd be surprised to hear that they would expend energy to heat and pressurize the pavers. They may agitate them to remove air, but I would think they would naturally dry them. Possibly they would choose an ideal location for the factory as to reduce energy costs. IIRC, a slower drying time is actually better for strength so the crystalline structure has more time to develop and internal heat doesn't build up causing cracks.

Maybe there is a how-its-made about them! I'm curious now.

I would tend to believe a properly made homemade paver would actually be stronger because the home owner could use a better mixture versus what the penny pinching manufacturers use.

Home made quality control might reach the level of crappy 2x2 slabs but not of commercially produced patio/driveway pavers.

Cost is definitely a consideration, but don't kid yourself about the quality aspect.

 

[Humpy]

Maybe there is a how-its-made about them! I'm curious now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z47T7wV9i0

 

[gorcorps]

Perfect amount of water and admixtures, dry materials are consistently mixed in bulk, compressed into a mold to create good density, and cured in optimal conditions which would all be difficult to accomplish on a small scale.

Not that DIY can't be done well and be worth it if someone has more time than money, or just enjoys the process. With expectations measured accordingly, one method isn't better or worse than the other.

How the patio will actually be used should be the main consideration IMO. For an outdoor dining area nothing really beats a nice flat concrete slab that can easily be kept clean and tables/chairs won't rock. If it's more a place to just hang out and drink beer while you watch the grill then a more irregular surface won't be a problem. If it's just something to keep the weeds and mud away from the back door for a few years then almost anything will work.

I'm not going to be using it as a dining area, at least that's not the main consideration. My concern with large concrete slabs is the 10x10 that's already there has cracked in several places and just doesn't look good. The same settling in a paver setup may make them a little off level in a certain spot, but that's much easier to remedy and look good than a cracked slab.

 

[todpod]

If you haven't done it yet and plan on making the stones. Here is how I would do it. I would make a bunch of molds the same size. I would make them like 12x20 or 16x20. The larger ones I did, I used plywood and furring strips for the molds. The larger stones seemed to lay better. Just my opinion

 

[mindless1]

You don't have to pour slabs that big, but what probably happened was the ground wasn't tamped down good prior to pouring those so as it settled over time, was inevitable that the concrete cracked. It should be less prone to that if you don't disturb the existing soil, only adding more to level it out and tamping that down good, but you can't do that if you're wanting to remove enough for the gravel and sand, unless it is raised.

 

[Greenman]

Six year old thread.
Why is it surprising that someone isn't afraid of labor?