PC game piracy examined

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MarcVenice

Moderator Emeritus <br>
Apr 2, 2007
5,664
0
0
Originally posted by: chizow
Originally posted by: Maximilian
Bad idea... are you on EA's payroll? Sure sounds like it.

Yes you've figured me out!!! Please tell me how its a bad idea though. If you're already buying your games, you've already paid for them and most likely used a credit card to do so. More stringent security measures to ensure only paying customers have access to content wouldn't impact you at all; in the long run it would be in your best interests.

Originally posted by: MarcVenice
I didn't read the article...

Well then you should probably read it before commenting. Not trying to be short here, just saying it does go into extensive detail in discrediting basically every excuse under the sun that justifies piracy, including the ones you just brought up.

I've pretty much read it, skipped some of the more boring parts, but I bet I got the gist of it. Here's what I think, piracy rates do not make up for the 5:1 figures the consoles manage to outsell the PC. The author has some decent suggestions, and it's to bad he forgot one thing. Negative comments tend to get vented 10 times more often then positive ones. Me, I've never had trouble with any kind of DRM. If that one ubisoft game never got cracked, use that DRM again and again, stop piracy dead in it's tracks, and see how it turns out.

To me it's funny how some developers claim high-end pc's are 5 times more powerfull then consoles, yet how many games really take advantage of all that power? Look at Far Cry 2, or Mercenary's for example. Maybe those are bad examples though, games they allready developed with consoles in mind, instead of PC's. But I think that even before piracy became rampant, high-end pc's were never fully utilized.

I think, that there is something else holding PC's back, and it's not piracy, but it's the inherent flaw to PC's that also makes them great, it's the diversity in hardware, and the so called driver interlayers I think mentioned in the article. It's to hard to optimize for, so it's very hard to optimize games the way they do for consoles, therefor not reaching even half the PC-gamers they COULD be reaching, if PC's had a single standard.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
Originally posted by: chizow
Also I'm not advocating doing the same thing over and over again, I'm advocating increasing and changing DRM so that its more effective and in many cases, less intrusive. Not only would it make it more difficult to pirate games, it'd eliminate many of the current complaints with DRM schemes.

I'm pretty sure that the only way to do what you are suggesting would be to make the game not work in offline mode. I don't mean Steam offline mode, but like World of Warcraft offline mode. Instead of logging into a game like WoW to play multiplayer, you would be logging in to play single player. The installed copy of the game would not have the ability to run as a standalone game, but more like a client requiring a server.

The problem is that people like me will never buy a product like that. It has been stated over and over again in the threads about activation limits: I care what happens when the company doesn't exist anymore or stops supporting the game. I still play older games like Red Alert 2, Quake 1, and Doom. If there's no assurance the game will work after 10 years, there's no way I'm going to buy your game.

edit: I'll say right up front that World of Warcraft is an exception since I knew exactly what I was getting into. The game has no single player, so obviously it will become unusable after a certain period of time.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Originally posted by: chizow
Also I'm not advocating doing the same thing over and over again, I'm advocating increasing and changing DRM so that its more effective and in many cases, less intrusive. Not only would it make it more difficult to pirate games, it'd eliminate many of the current complaints with DRM schemes.

I'm pretty sure that the only way to do what you are suggesting would be to make the game not work in offline mode. I don't mean Steam offline mode, but like World of Warcraft offline mode. Instead of logging into a game like WoW to play multiplayer, you would be logging in to play single player. The installed copy of the game would not have the ability to run as a standalone game, but more like a client requiring a server.

The problem is that people like me will never buy a product like that. It has been stated over and over again in the threads about activation limits: I care what happens when the company doesn't exist anymore or stops supporting the game. I still play older games like Red Alert 2, Quake 1, and Doom. If there's no assurance the game will work after 10 years, there's no way I'm going to buy your game.

Now this man is qualified to drive the cluebuss unlike some others.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91

I'd like to encourage those of you who support PC gaming to support Stardock, the company that says "Pirates don't count" and that released the Gamers' Bill of Rights. Stardock is the producer of Galactic Civilizations 2 and the publisher for the excellent and overlooked Sins of a Solar Empire. It's nice to know that there is at least one company out there that "gets it".
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,079
136
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: chizow

Anti-DRM people need to realize that DRM is not the problem, Pirates are and in order to ensure the ongoing viability of PC gaming, DRM is necessary. You simply cannot trust people to do the right thing and in such cases, security is needed.

/yawn


that's why the most crippled DRM filled released is also the #1 pirated title.
BINGO!
DRM makes piracy more likely, not less.

The cracked versions of games are easier to use then the legit.
The companies that use no DRM and charge reasonable prices are seeing the least amount of piracy.

Galactic Civilizations 2 is a prime example.
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: ShawnD1
I'm pretty sure that the only way to do what you are suggesting would be to make the game not work in offline mode. I don't mean Steam offline mode, but like World of Warcraft offline mode. Instead of logging into a game like WoW to play multiplayer, you would be logging in to play single player. The installed copy of the game would not have the ability to run as a standalone game, but more like a client requiring a server.
There's a lot of ways to accomplish what I'm suggesting, but it will almost always tie content delivery to a form of payment, similar to what Steam, MMOs and online games that require a service like Battle.net are doing now. While CD-Keys can eventually be cracked, companies are quite good at filtering cracked vs. non-cracked keys and segregating pirate copies from legal players.

The problem with PC gaming is that they haven't been able to add value or improve the gamer's experience in games that aren't online-based or continually update content. A good example would be XBox Live. That's a huge reason to legitimately buy copies of XBox360 games, as they've developed a culture that revolves around multiplayer online play. If the PC can eventually come to this point then I think its possible to change PC gamer's perspective as well. But there's no doubt they would also have to change their pricing and content model as well.

The problem is that people like me will never buy a product like that. It has been stated over and over again in the threads about activation limits: I care what happens when the company doesn't exist anymore or stops supporting the game. I still play older games like Red Alert 2, Quake 1, and Doom. If there's no assurance the game will work after 10 years, there's no way I'm going to buy your game.
Have you bought Company of Heroes? They installed a similar patch that required online authentication even if you're playing single player. There was some backlash but for the most people its a completely innocuous DRM check. If that's all it takes to ensure the ongoing viability of a great game franchise and dev studio like Relic I have absolutely no problems with it. Oh and CoH will be releasing its 2nd expansion in 2009.

As for assurance that a game will work after 10 years etc., while this is one of the few viable reasons for opposing activation or online DRM, there are also examples of games that remove activation/cd-key checks after a certain amount of time (Bioshock). There's also examples of devs releasing no-cd .exes after a certain amount of time. Sure it would be great if there were some guaranteed or announced exit-strategy if a company goes under but I don't see that happening until publishers are satisfied with anti-piracy measures first.

edit: I'll say right up front that World of Warcraft is an exception since I knew exactly what I was getting into. The game has no single player, so obviously it will become unusable after a certain period of time.
How about something like StarCraft 2? Or Diablo 3? Or any other MMO down the line? Realistically, if the game is something that you want to play enough, you'll get it regardless what form of DRM it employs whether you buy or pirate it. So once again, DRM isn't the problem, its just a convenient excuse.
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: shortylickens
BINGO!
DRM makes piracy more likely, not less.

The cracked versions of games are easier to use then the legit.
The companies that use no DRM and charge reasonable prices are seeing the least amount of piracy.

Galactic Civilizations 2 is a prime example.
So Prince of Persia for $30 isn't a reasonable price? 24,000 downloads on Day 1.....

Claiming DRM makes piracy more likely, not less is a joke. It will be at least equal.
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,101
2
56
I refuse to pay $60-$100 for a goddamn video game that's going to last me 4 hours and has no replay value. Shit, I refuse to pay $10 at the theater for two hours of a movie that I'm not sure will suck or not.

Game makers marinade their games in good graphics but beyond that it's the same damn game I bought last month. It's the same hack-and-slash or shoot-anything-that-moves crap that came out last year. Look at the Call of Duty chain as an example. I bought the original COD and I bought COD4. COD was good, but COD 2 through, what, 5 now? It's just the same shit over... and over... and over again. The majority of gamers are stupid lemmings that see a title and buy it. As gamers, it's our own fault for driving the price of games up and the quality down because we will buy ANYTHING. We don't put our foot down and say no, this is garbage and I'm not paying $60 for it.

That's why I pirate games. When PC games don't suck so much and when they don't cost a damn arm-and-a-leg, THEN I'll start buying games again.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You prefer to steal something of poor quality rather than buy it.

You are never going to be able to find something that meets your standards, because you have shown that you have none.

Please do not generate any posts regarding in support/acknowlegement of piracy - that attitude does not sit well with the standards that we try to set around here.

Senior Anandtech Moderator
Common Courtesy
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: Maleficus
Prince of Persia is not worth 30 dollars no. the price is pretty good for a brand new game, but when the game is as bad as PoP is, it will never be worth it. I honest to god would not pay 5 dollars for PoP.
To you it isn't, so you don't buy it. But we already know you don't buy games or like them, or even have hardware capable of running them. Yet you somehow know they all suck......
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: Nik
I refuse to pay $60-$100 for a goddamn video game that's going to last me 4 hours and has no replay value. Shit, I refuse to pay $10 at the theater for two hours of a movie that I'm not sure will suck or not.

Game makers marinade their games in good graphics but beyond that it's the same damn game I bought last month. It's the same hack-and-slash or shoot-anything-that-moves crap that came out last year. Look at the Call of Duty chain as an example. I bought the original COD and I bought COD4. COD was good, but COD 2 through, what, 5 now? It's just the same shit over... and over... and over again. The majority of gamers are stupid lemmings that see a title and buy it. As gamers, it's our own fault for driving the price of games up and the quality down because we will buy ANYTHING. We don't put our foot down and say no, this is garbage and I'm not paying $60 for it.

That's why I pirate games. When PC games don't suck so much and when they don't cost a damn arm-and-a-leg, THEN I'll start buying games again.
^

Prime example of why we need more effective DRM.
 

Emultra

Golden Member
Jul 6, 2002
1,166
0
0
Piracy is inherent to the PC as a platform. You can't destroy it without changing what the PC is. A more effective way is to bypass it like Valve does. There's no way to tackle piracy head-on with DRM without first screwing over everyone who isn't using cracked versions.
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,101
2
56
Originally posted by: chizow
Originally posted by: Nik
I refuse to pay $60-$100 for a goddamn video game that's going to last me 4 hours and has no replay value. Shit, I refuse to pay $10 at the theater for two hours of a movie that I'm not sure will suck or not.

Game makers marinade their games in good graphics but beyond that it's the same damn game I bought last month. It's the same hack-and-slash or shoot-anything-that-moves crap that came out last year. Look at the Call of Duty chain as an example. I bought the original COD and I bought COD4. COD was good, but COD 2 through, what, 5 now? It's just the same shit over... and over... and over again. The majority of gamers are stupid lemmings that see a title and buy it. As gamers, it's our own fault for driving the price of games up and the quality down because we will buy ANYTHING. We don't put our foot down and say no, this is garbage and I'm not paying $60 for it.

That's why I pirate games. When PC games don't suck so much and when they don't cost a damn arm-and-a-leg, THEN I'll start buying games again.
^

Prime example of why we need more effective DRM.

Instead of choaking the shit out of PC Gamers to get them to spend their money, why don't you just give them an incentive to give their money to the pc gaming industry? Make longer games that are more thought-out instead of regurgitating the same bullshit we played last year and then charging up the nose to play it?
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,101
2
56
Originally posted by: Emultra
Piracy is inherent to the PC as a platform. You can't destroy it without changing what the PC is. A more effective way is to bypass it like Valve does. There's no way to tackle piracy head-on with DRM without first screwing over everyone who isn't using cracked versions.

There's another good point. Another reason I'm turned off to buying games is that I can't install them 2 years from now and play them again. Fuck. That. Shit. I refuse to support the gaming industry if they're willing to screw over legit customers just to spite so ridiculously few people who pirate it.
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: Emultra
Piracy is inherent to the PC as a platform. You can't destroy it without changing what the PC is. A more effective way is to bypass it like Valve does. There's no way to tackle piracy head-on with DRM without first screwing over everyone who isn't using cracked versions.
Steam is a form of DRM and there's many methods the rest of the PC industry could use to reduce piracy. Online delivery of essential content only after verification/authentication is a cornerstone of Steam's DRM.

Originally posted by: Maleficus
remind me again how you know I don't have the hardware capable of running these games? or that I don't like games when I've listed games I like because people like you are so obsessed with those of us who don't lap up whatever 'AAA' title falls out of any developers nether regions?
Just an assumption knowing you haven't bought a PC game in years, so if there are no PC games worth buying I'd assume there was no reason to upgrade the hardware either.

You don't have to like every AAA title that gets released, and you certainly don't have to buy them, but if you're not going to buy them then you also don't have the right to play them. This seems to be the part that pirates/thieves/criminals don't seem to understand.

Given your comments about games released over the last few years, its safe to assume you haven't bought any either. Which means your opinions are either based on nothing or you pirate them, which either direct or indirectly invalidates your opinions. But I think most people here already know well enough to ignore your comments about games.
 

Emultra

Golden Member
Jul 6, 2002
1,166
0
0
Originally posted by: chizow
Steam is a form of DRM and there's many methods the rest of the PC industry could use to reduce piracy. Online delivery of essential content only after verification/authentication is a cornerstone of Steam's DRM.

Steam is an entirely different service. It's honest, you know what you're giving up and what you're getting as compensation. Regular games with DRM are just crappier versions with no upsides to them.

On top of that, Steam's "DRM" actually works. The fact that the usual DRM BS doesn't even do what it's supposed to is what's pissing people off. Legitimate customers are being griefed for no reason at all.
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: Emultra
Originally posted by: chizow
Steam is a form of DRM and there's many methods the rest of the PC industry could use to reduce piracy. Online delivery of essential content only after verification/authentication is a cornerstone of Steam's DRM.

Steam is an entirely different service. It's honest, you know what you're giving up and what you're getting as compensation. Regular games with DRM are just crappier versions with no upsides to them.

On top of that, Steam's "DRM" actually works. The fact that the usual DRM BS doesn't even do what it's supposed to is what's pissing people off. Legitimate customers are being griefed for no reason at all.

And I don't disagree with any of that, I've already said there's numerous methods that Steam employs that other PC developers and publishers can learn from. But its still DRM and there's still aspects of it that people are going to complain about.



 

Maleficus

Diamond Member
May 2, 2001
7,682
0
0
-

---------------------------------------------
Once a thief has stolen the game, they are not going to go back and pay for it, unless there is some incentive.

Do not confuse demos with piracy/theft.

Please review the comments added to Nik's post above. Both of you are thieves and have no standards. If you work for a living, try to work for a week or to and then refuse the paycheck from your employeer.

Senior Anandtech Moderator
Common Courtesy
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: Maleficus
You continually top yourself for idiotic comments, because I didn't buy the game my opinion is invalid? Are my experiences with the game any less real as a result of my lack of ownership? No, you're perspective if just so minuscule and inane because you sit so high up on your self-made pedestal that you can't hardly tell left from right.
Yes, because you're a piece of trash that doesn't seem to understand stealing is fundamentally wrong, your opinion is invalid. Thieves and criminals will always come up with whatever reasoning necessary to justify their actions; in your case its declaring the game sucks, and therefore, not worth your money.

The entire purpose of 'piracy' and demos and everything else is to allow you to experience the content before you end up wasting your money on these perennial piles of shit.
ROFL. Priceless stuff really, but that's not how the real world works. Only on the internet can such ridiculous views perpetuate themselves and go unpunished. You're certainly due for a reality check though.
 

Maximilian

Lifer
Feb 8, 2004
12,604
15
81
Originally posted by: chizow
Originally posted by: Maleficus
You continually top yourself for idiotic comments, because I didn't buy the game my opinion is invalid? Are my experiences with the game any less real as a result of my lack of ownership? No, you're perspective if just so minuscule and inane because you sit so high up on your self-made pedestal that you can't hardly tell left from right.
Yes, because you're a piece of trash that doesn't seem to understand stealing is fundamentally wrong, your opinion is invalid. Thieves and criminals will always come up with whatever reasoning necessary to justify their actions; in your case its declaring the game sucks, and therefore, not worth your money.

The entire purpose of 'piracy' and demos and everything else is to allow you to experience the content before you end up wasting your money on these perennial piles of shit.
ROFL. Priceless stuff really, but that's not how the real world works. Only on the internet can such ridiculous views perpetuate themselves and go unpunished. You're certainly due for a reality check though.

No your opinion is invalid, what are you trying to accomplish here? Your not convincing anyone that DRM is a great idea and we should all support it... ill continue to do things my way so i dont get screwed by buying another crap game, others who also do this will likely keep doing the same and the pirates who pirate for the sake of it well theyre never going to stop. Accept it, pirates are not the root cause of the problem, lousy games and even worse protection schemes are.

Devs who deserve my cash will get it, those that dont will get nothing, simple as that. Piracy is a conveniant excuse for low sales of a lousy game. If a game is good it will sell well, sins of a solar empire is a prime example.

I conclude that you are definately not a gamer to have come to this belief that DRM is awesome...
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
Originally posted by: chizow
There's a lot of ways to accomplish what I'm suggesting, but it will almost always tie content delivery to a form of payment, similar to what Steam, MMOs and online games that require a service like Battle.net are doing now. While CD-Keys can eventually be cracked, companies are quite good at filtering cracked vs. non-cracked keys and segregating pirate copies from legal players.
Unfortunately, single player games rule the market. This kind of DRM doesn't work for single player games since the crack will not check if the game is valid. That thing I posted about requiring a server for single player would be the only thing that would make cracking a single player game a pain in the ass since it would mean running your own server then joining that server. Even then, it's still questionable if it would stop piracy. When I was big into Neverwinter Nights, I ran a LAN server on my second computer so that the AI would not eat my frame rate. In theory, cracking a server-requiring game like World of Warcraft would work the exact same way. To be honest, setting up a NWN server on my second computer then joining it wasn't that difficult, so why would it be any harder to do that as a crack method for some future game?


The problem with PC gaming is that they haven't been able to add value or improve the gamer's experience in games that aren't online-based or continually update content. A good example would be XBox Live. That's a huge reason to legitimately buy copies of XBox360 games, as they've developed a culture that revolves around multiplayer online play. If the PC can eventually come to this point then I think its possible to change PC gamer's perspective as well. But there's no doubt they would also have to change their pricing and content model as well.
I agree that Xbox Live is a fantastic service, but I think you're wrong when you assume that a lot of people are focused on the online part of gaming. I'll go as far as saying most Xbox games would still be a lot of fun for anyone who did not have internet. GTA 4 was all single player; the online sucked. I really like Rock Band and Guitar Hero, but the only multiplayer I care about is having 2 controllers plugged into the same Xbox. Sports games are the same thing - me and a friend playing together in the same room. If it was widely known how to pirate Xbox games without changing any of the hardware in the console, Xbox piracy would be insane. It would be just as bad as PC piracy if not worse since you could rent a bunch of games from the store and copy all of them in one night. The only thing stopping Xbox piracy is figuring out how to do it without breaking your system.

So Prince of Persia for $30 isn't a reasonable price? 24,000 downloads on Day 1....
Uh that game is $50 everywhere I check.
http://www.amazon.com/Prince-P...qid=1229300014&sr=8-15
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/ol...&cp=1&id=1218027350894

edit: accidentally posted a canadian link, but most of you are not canadian.


I'm not actually going anywhere with my posting. I'm just thinking out loud and trying to argue against things I disagree with.
 
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